Return-Path: Sender: (Marvin Kaye) To: lml Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 20:42:55 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.35] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.5) with ESMTP id 2012402 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 07 Feb 2003 20:05:18 -0500 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id q.95.29b68d0e (16781) for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 20:05:12 -0500 (EST) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <95.29b68d0e.2b75b1c7@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 20:05:11 EST Subject: Re: [LML] 320/360 Flap Speeds X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_95.29b68d0e.2b75b1c7_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 4104 --part1_95.29b68d0e.2b75b1c7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/7/2003 5:28:04 PM Central Standard Time,=20 Lee.Metcalfe@jocoks.com writes: > I remember someone (Grayhawk?) saying he uses incremental flap extensions=20= to=20 > slow down when entering the pattern. > =20 > Lee "Q-Tip" Metcalfe >=20 Oui! Ya! Si! Da! Hai! Q-tippy, I have flown an experiment at 153 KIAS and taking the flaps out of reflex=20 (about 7 degrees down). 15 Kt slowdown (+ or -, need more experimentation),= =20 2.4 degree nose down pitch change and big trim adujstment in order to=20 maintain level flight. I was using marks placed on the outboard edge of the= =20 left flap and I doubt that the inboard flap reached the same down setting --= =20 go to your airplane, mark the outboard edge where it passes under the top=20 skin trailing edge, place about 10 pounds of upward lift on the edge and=20 notice how much twist occurs without the inboard edge moving at all (after=20 lash is taken up). I normally do not extend any flap until the power reduction (maybe 17-18=20 inches MP) slows me to about 140 or so KIAS in level flight. Then I start=20 ticking them down to "takeoff" (about 10 degrees), thus pretty quickly=20 reaching the magic 120 KIAS - down goes the gear and another 15 KIAS drop in= =20 speed- the rest is history (except for the wheelless luge ride).=20 Grayhawk AKA Scott Krueger N92EX PS: Feel free to drop the flaps at Vne and report back (if possible). We ar= e=20 all waiting to see how it flies without any flaps at all. Really, I don't=20 think these things can take the twist - It's too bad that the flap actuator=20 wasn't placed closer to BL50. PPS - From an e-mail previously sent: It has been claimed that the reflex/no-reflex flap difference has little=20 affect on speed, perhaps 2-3 mph.=A0 My feeling was that is was greater sinc= e I=20 use small flap increments to knock down the speed when approaching an=20 airport.=A0 It was also postulated that I may see a greater indicated air sp= eed=20 difference that may be due solely to a change in the airflow over the=20 fuselage near the static ports. Thus, I should look at ground speeds.=A0 The= =20 following experiment was performed today. -The static ports on my 320 are in the Lancair recommended location. -The flap was marked at 7* down from the faired in reflex position. -A target test speed of 160 Kts would be used to lessen the twist applied to= =20 the outboard end of the flap. -A digital level was carried aloft for additional information and=20 coordination with AOA (Proprietary Software) readings. -All data collected in trimmed level flight with autopilot and alt hold=20 engaged. The following baseline was used: 6500 ft (6110 p alt), -7*C, 25.1" MP, 2490 RPM, 180 KIAS, 192 KTAS Longeron Angle =3D +0.6*, wing AOA =3D 1.9, Tail AOA =3D -0.15* At 5500 ft, heading East, 20.5 " MP, 2380 RPM In Reflex (-7*) - 153 KIAS, 169 GS - Longeron=3D +1.2*, wing AOA =3D 2.7, Ta= il=20 AOA =3D -.45* No Reflex (0*) - 142 KIAS, 154 GS - Longeron=3D -1.2*, wing AOA =3D 1.0, Tai= l AOA=20 =3D -1.95* 11 Kts indicated slower, 15 Kts slower over the ground. At 5500 ft heading West, 20.5" MP, 2380 RPM In Reflex (-7*) - 153 KIAS, 155 GS - Longeron=3D +1.0*, wing AOA =3D 2.7, Ta= il=20 AOA =3D -.25* No Reflex (0*) - 144 KIAS, 144 GS - Longeron=3D -1.2*, wing AOA =3D 1.0, Tai= l AOA=20 =3D -1.95* 9 Kts indicated slower, 11 Kts slower over the ground. The wing has a tremendous pitching moment when the flap is engaged, with=20 quite a bit of nose up trim (tail down load) needed to fly level. --part1_95.29b68d0e.2b75b1c7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/7/2003 5:28:04 PM Central Standar= d Time, Lee.Metcalfe@jocoks.com writes:

I remember someone (Grayhawk?)=20= saying he uses incremental flap extensions to slow down when entering the pa= ttern.
 
Lee "Q-Tip" Metcalfe<= FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY= =3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">

Oui! Ya! Si! Da! Hai!

Q-tippy,

I have flown an experiment at 153 KIAS and taking the flaps out of reflex (a= bout 7 degrees down).  15 Kt slowdown (+ or -, need more experimentatio= n), 2.4 degree nose down pitch change and big trim adujstment in order to ma= intain level flight.  I was using marks placed on the outboard edge of=20= the left flap and I doubt that the inboard flap reached the same down settin= g -- go to your airplane, mark the outboard edge where it passes under the t= op skin trailing edge, place about 10 pounds of upward lift on the edge and=20= notice how much twist occurs without the inboard edge moving at all (after l= ash is taken up).

I normally do not extend any flap until the power reduction (maybe 17-18 inc= hes MP) slows me to about 140 or so KIAS in level flight.  Then I start= ticking them down to "takeoff" (about 10 degrees), thus pretty quickly reac= hing the magic 120 KIAS - down goes the gear and another 15 KIAS drop in spe= ed- the rest is history (except for the wheelless luge ride).

Grayhawk AKA Scott Krueger
N92EX

PS:  Feel free to drop the flaps at Vne and report back (if possible).=20= We are all waiting to see how it flies without any flaps at all.  Reall= y, I don't think these things can take the twist - It's too bad that the fla= p actuator wasn't placed closer to BL50.

PPS - From an e-mail previously sent:

It has been claimed that the reflex/no-reflex flap difference has little aff= ect on speed, perhaps 2-3 mph.=A0 My feeling was that is was greater since I= use small flap increments to knock down the speed when approaching an airpo= rt.=A0 It was also postulated that I may see a greater indicated air speed d= ifference that may be due solely to a change in the airflow over the fuselag= e near the static ports. Thus, I should look at ground speeds.=A0 The follow= ing experiment was performed today.

-The static ports on my 320 are in the Lancair recommended location.
-The flap was marked at 7* down from the faired in reflex position.
-A target test speed of 160 Kts would be used to lessen the twist applied to= the outboard end of the flap.
-A digital level was carried aloft for additional information and coordinati= on with AOA (Proprietary Software) readings.
-All data collected in trimmed level flight with autopilot and alt hold enga= ged.


The following baseline was used:
6500 ft (6110 p alt), -7*C, 25.1" MP, 2490 RPM, 180 KIAS, 192 KTAS
Longeron Angle =3D +0.6*, wing AOA =3D 1.9, Tail AOA =3D -0.15*

At 5500 ft, heading East, 20.5 " MP, 2380 RPM

In Reflex (-7*) - 153 KIAS, 169 GS - Longeron=3D +1.2*, wing AOA =3D 2.7, Ta= il AOA =3D -.45*
No Reflex (0*) - 142 KIAS, 154 GS - Longeron=3D -1.2*, wing AOA =3D 1.0, Tai= l AOA =3D -1.95*

11 Kts indicated slower, 15 Kts slower over the ground.

At 5500 ft heading West, 20.5" MP, 2380 RPM

In Reflex (-7*) - 153 KIAS, 155 GS - Longeron=3D +1.0*, wing AOA =3D 2.7, Ta= il AOA =3D -.25*
No Reflex (0*) - 144 KIAS, 144 GS - Longeron=3D -1.2*, wing AOA =3D 1.0, Tai= l AOA =3D -1.95*

9 Kts indicated slower, 11 Kts slower over the ground.

The wing has a tremendous pitching moment when the flap is engaged, with qui= te a bit of nose up trim (tail down load) needed to fly level.


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