Return-Path: Sender: (Marvin Kaye) To: lml Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:08:46 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.8] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.1) with ESMTP id 1887774 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:37:53 -0500 Received: from Epijk@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id q.19c.c9274da (4592) for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:37:45 -0500 (EST) From: Epijk@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <19c.c9274da.2b156dd9@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:37:45 EST Subject: Re: [LML] Re: flight instruction in new Lancairs X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_19c.c9274da.2b156dd9_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 234 --part1_19c.c9274da.2b156dd9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/26/2002 7:44:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, Jim McIrvin writes: ...Run it by your FSDO - if they say it's okay, jot down their name, what the conversation was, what day/time you talked and keep the record. Better yet, write it down and have them sign it. With that done - you have a solid case.... Jim: Thanks for clarifying that issue and for some sage advice on both procedure and attitude. The postings on this subject motivated me to look deeper into the FAA writings on it. In a message dated 11/26/2002 11:28:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, ckohler1@cfl.rr.com writes: ...There is no FAR that prohibits such Legal and certified training... While that statement is technically correct, there IS a portion in the Advisory Circular which Charlie referenced (AC-20-23-E, issued 09/26/01) which explicitly prohibits flight training during the test period. Paragraph 13 of that pub specifically addresses the limitations which apply during the 25- or 40-hour test flight period. Subparagraph 13.d says: "Flight instruction will not be allowed in the aircraft while conducting flight tests." Now you can quibble about the meaning of "flight test" (or "is", for that matter) but the context of the paragraph makes it clear to me that the prohibition applies during the 25- or 40-hour test flight period. Worse yet, the old version (AC 20-23-D, issued 06/22/90, under which I worked when doing the same thing) contains the same prohibition, in even more explicit wording, but slightly better hidden (last sentence of Par. 13.c). Sounds as if the insurance requirements Charlie quoted are in somewhat of a conflict with the WRITINGS, no? If you can get someone from FSDO to give you a written waiver from 20-23E-13.d as Jim suggested, that might do the trick, but at this point, I'm not sure I'd care to be the "test case". Granted that the AC does not have the same impact as an FAR. Nonetheless, I think it would be very persuasive argument against a defendant in a civil action or an FAA "administrative action". I think the FAA's intent with respect to the flight test period is to promote the full exploration of the aircraft's flight envelope and characteristics, and the gathering of enough data to compile a set of operational tables or graphs similar in scope to those provided in the AFM's of certificated aircraft. My experience is that to conduct a flight test program of sufficient depth to accomplish that goal in 25 hours is a real challenge when there are no problems with the aircraft, and I have rarely encountered that situation. And I DO believe that level of testing is necessary. There is no production certificate to be complied with in a homebuilt, and as a result, the flight characteristics of EVERY version of the "same" aircraft will differ from the factory's version(s). I encountered VASTLY differing flight characteristics and behaviors among the Glasair-3's which I flight tested. These characteristics included (but are not limited to): significant differences in stability at similar IAS, significant differences in stall behavior (which can be a real surprise during an emergency landing), significant differences in spin entry and recovery, and others. (Glad nothing went wrong when I was involved in this activity.) Note that this is not intended as any criticism of Charlie, Don, or anyone else. Just a bit of reflection on the risks Jim McIrvin suggested. Jack Kane --part1_19c.c9274da.2b156dd9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/26/2002 7:44:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Jim McIrvin <pilot195@rocketmail.com> writes:

...Run it by your FSDO - if they say it's okay, jot down their name, what the
conversation was, what day/time you talked and keep the record.  Better yet,
write it down and have them sign it.  With that done - you have a solid case....

Jim:
Thanks for clarifying that issue and for some sage advice on both procedure and attitude. The postings on this subject motivated me to look deeper into the FAA writings on it.

In a message dated 11/26/2002 11:28:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, ckohler1@cfl.rr.com writes:

...There is no FAR that prohibits such Legal and certified training...

While that statement is technically correct, there IS a portion in the Advisory Circular which Charlie referenced (AC-20-23-E, issued 09/26/01) which explicitly prohibits flight training during the test period.

Paragraph 13 of that pub specifically addresses the limitations which apply during the 25- or 40-hour test flight period. Subparagraph 13.d says: "Flight instruction will not be allowed in the aircraft while conducting flight tests."

Now you can quibble about the meaning of "flight test" (or "is", for that matter) but the context of the paragraph makes it clear to me that the prohibition applies during the 25- or 40-hour test flight period.

Worse yet, the old version (AC 20-23-D, issued 06/22/90, under which I worked when doing the same thing) contains the same prohibition, in even more explicit wording, but slightly better hidden (last sentence of Par. 13.c).

Sounds as if the insurance requirements Charlie quoted are in somewhat of a conflict with the WRITINGS, no?

If you can get someone from FSDO to give you a written waiver from 20-23E-13.d as Jim suggested, that might do the trick, but at this point, I'm not sure I'd care to be the "test case".

Granted that the AC does not have the same impact as an FAR. Nonetheless, I think it would be very persuasive argument against a defendant in a civil action or an FAA "administrative action".

I think the FAA's intent with respect to the flight test period is to promote the full exploration of the aircraft's flight envelope and characteristics, and the gathering of enough data to compile a set of operational tables or graphs similar in scope to those provided in the AFM's of certificated aircraft. My experience is that to conduct a flight test program of sufficient depth to accomplish that goal in 25 hours is a real challenge when there are no problems with the aircraft, and I have rarely encountered that situation.

And I DO believe that level of testing is necessary. There is no production certificate to be complied with in a homebuilt, and as a result, the flight characteristics of EVERY version of the "same" aircraft will differ from the factory's version(s).

I encountered VASTLY differing flight characteristics and behaviors among the Glasair-3's which I flight tested. These characteristics included (but are not limited to): significant differences in stability at similar IAS, significant differences in stall behavior (which can be a real surprise during an emergency landing), significant differences in spin entry and recovery, and others.

(Glad nothing went wrong when I was involved in this activity.)

Note that this is not intended as any criticism of Charlie, Don, or anyone else. Just a bit of reflection on the risks Jim McIrvin suggested.
Jack Kane
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