Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.100] (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b8) with ESMTP id 329482 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:54:46 -0400 Received-SPF: error receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from EDWARD (clt25-78-058.carolina.rr.com [24.25.78.58]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6LLsDPg016044 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004401c46f6d$4379f140$2402a8c0@EDWARD> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Rail Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:54:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01C46F4B.BC2CA7D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C46F4B.BC2CA7D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, I don't think you need be concerned. The rotary will fly just = fine on one set of injectors (I have done it a number of times just to = see), either the 460 cc or the 550 cc. So either both of your 460 cc = will be on and the rotary's will have balance (you will likely have to = crank up your mixture with the 460s to compensate for the lost of the = 550 cc) and perhaps turn the mixture control down if you are flying on = only the 550s. But, other than that I don't think you will notice. I = am assuming you are NA or at least will stay out of boost if fuel = limited otherwise you could end up with engine damage. =20 Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 2:43 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Rail Hi Al, That brings up an interesting consideration. Presently, I'm running = 550cc injectors in the primaries, and 460cc injectors in the = secondaries. To get the primaries to idle smoothly, I had to reduce the = map setting by 100 steps (from 0 to minus 100). Max adjustment is = +/-123 (there is another EM-2 Mode that allows you to change this, but = Tracy warns to try to tune within the factory adjustments first). FWIW, = I can't imagine adjusting/tuning the EC-2 without the help of the EM-2 = fuel map. I now have my engine idling pretty well on the 550's, but = need to wait for a prop to do any serious tuning. What I'm really concerned about is if I have an injector failure and = have to switch one bank of injectors off, what will happen to the = mixture for the other bank of injectors? Since they are two different = flow rates, will this emergency procedure even work? =20 I guess the simplest solution might be to install 550cc injectors in = the secondary runners. That would resolve the emergency concerns. I'll = try that and see how it runs. =20 Thanks, Mark At 11:15 AM 7/21/2004 -0700, you wrote: Mark;=20 =20 You may want to see how well it runs before you go through a lot of = work. I have the 550 s in my 20B, and it ran reasonably well on the = dyno at idle, although we didn t spend much time there. The only = problem I had was when I pulled the throttle from higher RPM and the MAP = went below where I had corrected the mixture table, and it would get too = rich and die. I expect that problem will be solved with the EM-2 where = I can adjust the mixture at low MAP without operating there. My = conclusion was that the Mazda injectors handle very short pulse widths = prettywell. =20 I hope to know more in a few weeks when I have the thing up and = running on the airplane. =20 Al =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:59 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Rail =20 Bulent, You lost me. I did modify the original primary fuel rail by cutting = off the ends and welding AN bungs in their place. But that limits me to = using the 550cc injectors. I feel these are way too big for a n/a = engine. My objective here is to go to a 460cc injector. But they don't = come in the "low-profile" style (correct me if I'm wrong). So, I = checked and discovered that the the standard injector will fit under my = custom intake using a stock 13B fuel rail. I don't see how I could = adapt the factory "low-profile" fuel rail to accept standard 460cc = injectors. I'll have to take a picture of what I'm talking about when I = get home from work. The "low-profile" injector that fits into the = primary intake port sockets is fed through a screened opening on the = side of the injector. It has o-rings on the body to seal when inserted = into the fuel rail. I don't see how you could modify this to accept a = standard injector. Also, there are two mounting brackets just next to = the injector sockets that holds the fuel rail and injectors in place. I = concluded that the easiest solution would be to use two standard 13B = primary fuel rails, connecting them in the middle with a tube, than = build one from scratch. If push comes to shove I can build one from = scratch. A picture will make this much clearer. Stay tuned. =20 Mark At 11:00 AM 7/21/2004 -0400, you wrote: On 7/21/04 10:10 AM, "Russell Duffy" <13brv3@bellsouth.net> wrote: Anyone that has a 13B fuel rail they're willing to sell,=20 please contact me at msteitle@mail.utexas.edu. Thanks,=20 Mark S. Mark, my Cosmo 13B has the same injectors as 20B. I cut both ends of = the original steel fuel rail and tapped them for 1/4 NPT thread. I m = talking about the injectors mounted on the engine block. Can you do that = with yours if you have it?=20 Bulent ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C46F4B.BC2CA7D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,  I don't=20 think you need be concerned.  The rotary will fly just fine on one = set of=20 injectors (I have done it a number of times just to see), either the 460 = cc or=20 the 550 cc.  So either both of your 460 cc will be on and the = rotary's will=20 have balance (you will likely have to crank up your mixture = with the=20 460s to compensate for the lost of the 550 cc) and perhaps turn the = mixture=20 control down if you are flying on only the 550s.  But, other than = that I=20 don't think you will notice.   I am assuming you are NA or at = least=20 will stay out of boost if fuel limited otherwise you could end up with = engine=20 damage. 
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark=20 Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 = 2:43=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel = Rail

Hi Al,
That brings up an interesting=20 consideration.  Presently, I'm running 550cc injectors in the = primaries,=20 and 460cc injectors in the secondaries.  To get the primaries to = idle=20 smoothly, I had to reduce the map setting by 100 steps (from 0 to = minus=20 100).  Max adjustment is +/-123 (there is another EM-2 Mode that = allows=20 you to change this, but Tracy warns to try to tune within the factory=20 adjustments first).  FWIW, I can't imagine adjusting/tuning the = EC-2=20 without the help of the EM-2 fuel map.  I now have my engine = idling=20 pretty well on the 550's, but need to wait for a prop to do any = serious=20 tuning.

What I'm really concerned about is if I have an = injector=20 failure and have to switch one bank of injectors off, what will happen = to the=20 mixture for the other bank of injectors?  Since they are two = different=20 flow rates, will this emergency procedure even work? 
I guess = the=20 simplest solution might be to install 550cc injectors in the secondary = runners.  That would resolve the emergency concerns.  I'll = try that=20 and see how it runs. 

Thanks,
Mark



At = 11:15 AM=20 7/21/2004 -0700, you wrote:
Mark;

 

You may want to see how well = it runs=20 before you go through a lot of work.  I have the 550 s in my = 20B, and=20 it ran reasonably well on the dyno at idle, although we didn t spend = much=20 time there.  The only problem I had was when I pulled the = throttle from=20 higher RPM and the MAP went below where I had corrected the mixture = table,=20 and it would get too rich and die.  I expect that problem will = be=20 solved with the EM-2 where I can adjust the mixture at low MAP = without=20 operating there.  My conclusion was that the Mazda injectors = handle=20 very short pulse widths prettywell.

 

I = hope to know=20 more in a few weeks when I have the thing up and running on the=20 airplane.

 

Al

 

-----Original Message-----
From: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of=20 Mark Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:59=20 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Fuel Rail

 

Bulent,
You lost = me.  I did=20 modify the original primary fuel rail by cutting off the ends and = welding AN=20 bungs in their place.  But that limits me to using the 550cc=20 injectors.  I feel these are way too big for a n/a = engine.  My=20 objective here is to go to a 460cc injector.  But they don't = come in=20 the "low-profile" style (correct me if I'm wrong).  So, I = checked and=20 discovered that the the standard injector will fit under my custom = intake=20 using a stock 13B fuel rail.  I don't see how I could adapt the = factory=20 "low-profile" fuel rail to accept standard 460cc injectors.  = I'll have=20 to take a picture of what I'm talking about when I get home from = work. =20 The "low-profile" injector that fits into the primary intake port = sockets is=20 fed through a screened opening on the side of the injector.  It = has=20 o-rings on the body to seal when inserted into the fuel rail.  = I don't=20 see how you could modify this to accept a standard injector.  = Also,=20 there are two mounting brackets just next to the injector sockets = that holds=20 the fuel rail and injectors in place.  I concluded that the = easiest=20 solution would be to use two standard 13B primary fuel rails, = connecting=20 them in the middle with a tube, than build one from scratch.  = If push=20 comes to shove I can build one from scratch.  A picture will = make this=20 much clearer.  Stay tuned. 

Mark


  = At=20 11:00 AM 7/21/2004 -0400, you wrote:

On 7/21/04 10:10 AM, "Russell Duffy" = <13brv3@bellsouth.net>=20 wrote:

Anyone that=20 has a 13B fuel rail they're willing to sell,

please contact me at=20 msteitle@mail.utexas.edu.

Thanks,

Mark S.

Mark, my Cosmo 13B has the same injectors as 20B. I cut = both ends of=20 the original steel fuel rail and tapped them for 1/4 NPT thread. I m = talking=20 about the injectors mounted on the engine block. Can you do that = with yours=20 if you have it?
Bulent =
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