Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.102] (HELO ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b6) with ESMTP id 301059 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:36:08 -0400 Received: from EDWARD (clt25-78-058.carolina.rr.com [24.25.78.58]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i69LZYiB003155 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002301c465fc$acad0280$2402a8c0@EDWARD> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: BOV more/less air flow Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:35:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C465DB.25695600" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C465DB.25695600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think so Eric, but I could be wrong - I have studie a bit about = the turbo and have turbocharged cars, but I do not consider my self = turbo expert. But, Let me present my case about the BOV (Blow Off Valve) First we know that the engine will pump essentially the same cubic feet per minute of air regardless of the boost. The way we increase the air = mass flow is to use the compressor to increase the density of the air in that = cubic foot of air. So a two rotor at 6000 rpm displaces 277 CFM (assuming 100%Ve) - no more, no less regardless of boost. Now the density of that = air will change depending on the amount of boost. Wait, I know someone will say "Ed - at 1.5 pressure ratio (7.5 psi = boost at sea level) you actually have approx 1.5*277 =3D 415 CFM entering the engine". Not true, my = friend - you only have 277 CFM entering the engine (at 6000rpm).=20 However, You DO have 415 CFM entering the inlet to the compessor at 0.076 lbm/Cubic foot. But when it leaves the compressor to feed the engine the flow is reduced to 277 CFM(more or less I am not = taking losses into account here) at 6000 rpm, but at a higher air density (approx 1.5* 076lbm/Cubic foot) that is how you get = more air into the engine. The engine is a positive displacement pump and = will pump essentially the same VOLUME each revolution whether at idle or = 6000 rpm. What makes the difference is the density/pressure of the air = that it is displacing. The way in which the turbo charger increases pressure is not by stuffing = more air into the intake manifold like our positive displacement pump = might. The blades of the compressor actually speed up the air molecules = by grabing them and whipping the around and out the compressor housing = exit at a higher velocity. This is what any centrifugal compresser = does. Recall the properties of a diffuser? Right! The turbo charger = is actually designed with a diffuser nozzer which of course slows the = velocity of an airflow and increases the pressure. That is exactly what = happens in the nozzle of the compressor housing. You increase its density and pressure of the air but not its = displacement amount. The displacement amount stays at 277 CFM you have simply increased the = air density by some factor say by a pressure ratio of 1.5 (the density won't = increased linearly propotional to pressure because of PV=3DnTK law, = compressor efficiency, heating, etc will reduce that amount a bit), but = lets use it as an example to simply things a bit.=20 Now it is convient to simply consider the engine to have increased its = displacement so that it can pump 415 CFM as the Horse power results are = the same. This concept is in fact use so frequently it is called = Equivalent Volumetric Efficiency. =20 But what is a convient concept to make it easier to talk about does not = mean it is technically was is actually happening. keep those things in = mind. Does the BOV Increase compressor mass flow?? So turning to the compressor map and the question of the Blow Off or Pop = Off value between the compressor and the engine. Eric, your statement was you = believed that the BOV might actually shift (increase) the air mass to = the right on the compressor chart (meaning more air mass flow). Well = lets take a look at that hypothesis. =20 Since the engine (it IS a positive displacement pump) still pushing = through 277 CFM at one instance with a pressure ratio of 1.5, the next = instance the BOV releases and you have the 277 cfm at say a 1.2 = pressure ratio. So now instead of the 31 lbm/min air mass flow we had = at 1.5 pressure ratio, we now have approx 1.2*277*.076 =3D 25 lbm/min = (still at 277 CFM at 6000 rpm). This is an approx 20% decrease in the = airmass flow. Just the opposite of what you might think. So the = operating point shifts to the left on the compressor chart when the BOV = opens. This makes sense when you think about it. The way we get the = turbo to decrease it boost is to make the engine stop producing as much = exhaust mass flow. We do that by reducing the air mass flow into the = engine. =20 So the BOV opening actually decreases your mass flow by reducing the = pressure ratio from 1.5 to 1.2. But that is not in itself something bad, = it depends on how far it goes under what conditions. Its what happens = between the time the BOV opens and the pressure ratio stabilizes at the = new level that it appears bad things could happen. By the way, There is a role for the BOV I will mention later - I just = don't think its in boost control of aircraft turbo. This next part talks about the effect the BOV actually has on the = compressor when it has just opened. Its a bit long ,so just wanted to = warn you. Here's the situation. The compressor wheel is spinning to compress the = air in the intake manifold driven by the exhaust energy driving the = turbine wheel. On one side of the compressor wheel we have pressure = slightly below atmospheric as the air is drawn into the turbocharger. On = the other side of the compressor we have air pressurized to perhaps 1.5 = atmospheres. The compressor wheel is constantly fighting the battle to = keep the compressed air on the manifold side of the wheel as that air = tries to move back to the lower air pressure region on the inlet side of = the turbocharger. This resistance takes work and produces a load on the = compressor wheel and entire rotating assembly. So what happens when the BOV opens. The pressure on the intake manifold = side starts immediately venting to the atmosphere reducing the pressure = inside the manifold - this is of course what the BOV is designed to do. = The compressor wheel has been spinning at 90,000 rpm with 1.5 boost = pressure ratio. Now the boost pressure ratio may be 1.2 or less in a = very short duration of time (milliseconds). This immediately reduces the = backpressure on the compressor wheel caused by the manifold pressure = being less than it before the venting. . The engine has not yet reacted = to this change, as it is still combusting the boost density air it had = ingested into the combustion chamber before the BOV opened. Neither has = the exhaust gas flow been affected - yet. So until the exhaust gas mass flow has reduced in response to the BOV = opening, the turbine wheel still has the same exhaust energy whipping it = around - but now at a instance in time, it happens that the compressor = wheel is seeing a lesser load than at boost. A lesser load due to the = reduced back pressure because the manifold pressure has just decreased. = The lesser backpressure combined with (as yet) no reduction in the = exhaust gas mass flow over the turbine wheel causes what to happened? The combination causes the rotating assembly to instantly (well, very, = very quickly) increase in rotation speed. So the path of operation on = the compressor map might look like that in the attachment. Now as soon as the reduction in manifold pressure due to the BOV has = affected the exhaust gas output (by reducing it), then the rotating = assembly will again slow down until equilibrium is attained between the = loads on the compressor wheel and the energy driving the turbine wheel. = The effects are over with in a few fractions of a second. to perhaps a = second depending on the BOV and a number of different parameters. = However, during that time the compressor under lessor load could = increased its speed dramatically. Depending on a number of different = parameters and operating conditions, this could result in an over-speed = and damage to the turbo. The smaller the compressor wheel relative to = the boost it is producing the worst the condition becomes as its lesser = inertia will cause it to spin up even faster than a turbo with a large = compressor (and more mass/inertia). In effect, the blades of the = compressor are stalled due to the pressure differential across the wheel = and like a stalled Prop can achieve a higher rpm without the load of an = unstalled blade(s). There is a role for a BOV but I do not believe it is for boost control = on an aircraft installation. In an automobile when the compressor is = producing boost in the manifold and the throttle plate is suddenly = closed, there is a spike in the air pressure the compressor wheel sees. = Just the opposite of the condition just described. This spike in = pressure tries to get pass the compressor wheel and procedures a heavier = load as the compressor wheel fights to keep the pressurized air = contained. This in turn slows down the compressor wheel momentarily. So = even if the throttle opens again immediately, it takes a moment for the = load to bleed off and compressor to spin back up. This is normally a = condition encountered in an automobile perhaps in some types of racing = scenarios as the throttle is opened and closed shifting gears, etc.. The = BOV in effect alleviates that problem by providing a path for the = pressure spike to escape in a momentary whoosh of an opening BOV. So the BOV may (in my opinion) have a role in an automobile, but I = believe its uses as a boost controller in an aircraft may actually lead = to damage to the turbocharger. =20 Now decreasing boost by decreasing the exhaust mass flow through the = turbine housing by a wastegate of some time does not have any of these = potentially harmful side effects. This simply reduces the mass flow by = diverting some of it away from the turbine wheel which naturally slows = down thereby reducing the speed of the compressor wheel producing less = boost. In any case, that is how I see the situation. Different viewpoints are = of course, welcomed. =20 =20 Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo post mortem > Ed; > Wouldn't an opening in the intake like john had shift the air mass the > compressor is putting out to the right in the compressor map? > > I though John put the hole there to AVOID over speeding, (John has = since > explained that was not his INTENT). The idea being, relative to a > compressor map, instead of going up the map, increasing the pressure ratio, > it moves right, increasing air mas, but keeping in a safe pressure = ratio. > > Less efficient, but no surge. > > > Ed Anderson wrote: > > John, I think you may be correct about the overspeed. > > > > That is one of the dangers with using a blow off valve as I = mentioned > > before. The compressor wheel is already speeding huffing and = puffing faster > > at altitude than sea level to produce the same amount of boost and suddenly > > you remove some of the resistance it is working against on the = intake side > > through a blow off valve. Already revving at high speed because of = the > > altitude with plenty of exhaust mass flow spinning the other end - = the > > turbine the blow off valve suddenly reduces the pressure (and = therefore > > resistance the compressor wheel sees) and with less load on the compressor > > wheel the rotating assembly rapidly increases in speed even more. > > > > A waste gate of course reduces the exhaust mass flow and slows the turbine > > down, a blow off valve (at least momentarily) simply reduces the = boost by > > bleeding off the air the compressor is striving to pressurize to maintain > > the boost pressure. Yes, eventually the lack of boost will cause = the > > exhaust flow to slow down - but not perhaps before overspeeding the rotating > > assembly. > > > > So while blow off valves may be OK for autos at sea level, I would really > > hesitate to put one on an aircraft. That of course just my personal > > opinion. > > > > Ed > > > > Ed Anderson > > RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: "John Slade" > > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 10:43 PM > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbo post mortem > > > > > > > >>I took my (ex Rusty's) turbo apart this evening. The bearings seem = to be > > > > in > > > >>fairly good shape and the shaft looks ok. It looks like the = compressor > > > > wheel > > > >>just "came off the end" of the shaft, much like the other one did. = My > >>uneducated guess would be that I overspeeded it. > >> > >>By the way, I was showing 38 MAP at 11,500 ft with the wastegate = fully > > > > open. > > > >>However, there's an open 1/2 inch air bleed on the intercooler (to = be > >>closed off) and a blow off valve, so the turbo may have been putting = out > >>much more than the MAP showed. > >> > >>John Slade > >>Rotary Cozy IV > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>>> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >> > > > > > > > >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C465DB.25695600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think so Eric, but I could be = wrong - I=20 have studie a bit about the turbo and have turbocharged cars, but I do = not=20 consider my self   turbo expert.
 
But, Let me present my case about = the BOV=20 (Blow Off Valve)

 First we know that the engine = will pump=20 essentially the same cubic feet
per minute of air regardless of the=20 boost.  The way we increase the air mass
flow is to use the = compressor=20 to increase the density of the air in that cubic
foot of air.  = So a two=20 rotor at 6000 rpm displaces 277 CFM (assuming
100%Ve) - no more, no = less=20 regardless of boost.  Now the density of that air will
change depending on the amount of=20 boost.
 
 Wait, I know someone will say "Ed = - at 1.5=20 pressure ratio (7.5 psi boost at sea level) you actually
have approx = 1.5*277=20 =3D  415 CFM entering the engine".  Not true, my friend  = - you only=20 have 277
CFM entering the engine (at 6000rpm). 
 
However,  You DO have 415 CFM = entering the=20 inlet to the
compessor at 0.076 lbm/Cubic foot.  But when it = leaves the=20 compressor to
feed the engine the flow is reduced to 277 CFM(more or = less I=20 am not taking losses into account here) at 6000 rpm, but at = a
higher air=20 density (approx 1.5* 076lbm/Cubic foot) that is how you get more air = into the=20 engine. The engine is a positive displacement pump and will pump=20 essentially the same VOLUME each revolution whether at idle or 6000 = rpm. =20 What makes the difference is the density/pressure of the air that it is=20 displacing.
 
The way in which the turbo charger = increases=20 pressure is not by stuffing more air into the intake manifold like = our=20 positive displacement pump might.  The blades of = the compressor=20 actually speed up the air molecules by grabing them and whipping = the around=20 and out the compressor housing exit at a higher velocity.  = This is=20 what any centrifugal compresser does.  Recall the properties of a=20 diffuser?  Right!   The turbo charger is actually = designed with a=20 diffuser nozzer which of course slows the velocity of an airflow and = increases=20 the pressure.  That is exactly what happens in the nozzle of the = compressor=20 housing.

You increase its density and pressure of the air but =  not=20 its displacement amount.
The displacement amount stays at 277 CFM you = have=20 simply increased the air
density by some factor say by a pressure = ratio of=20 1.5 (the density won't increased linearly  propotional to = pressure=20 because of PV=3DnTK law, compressor efficiency, heating, etc will reduce = that=20 amount a bit), but lets use it as an example to simply things a=20 bit. 
 
 Now it is convient to simply = consider the=20 engine to have increased its displacement so that it can pump 415 CFM as = the=20 Horse power results are the same.  This concept is in fact use so=20 frequently it is called Equivalent Volumetric Efficiency.  =
But what is a convient concept to make = it easier to=20 talk about does not mean it is technically was is actually happening. = keep those=20 things in mind.

Does the BOV Increase compressor mass=20 flow??

So turning to the = compressor map=20 and the question of the Blow Off or Pop Off value
between the=20 compressor  and the engine. Eric, your statement was you = believed that=20 the BOV might actually shift (increase) the air mass to the right = on the=20 compressor chart (meaning more air mass flow).  Well lets take a = look at=20 that hypothesis.  
 
Since the engine (it IS a positive = displacement pump) still pushing through 277 CFM at one instance with a = pressure=20 ratio of 1.5, the next instance the BOV releases and  you have the = 277 cfm=20 at say a 1.2 pressure ratio.  So now instead of the 31 lbm/min air = mass=20 flow we had at 1.5 pressure ratio,  we now have approx 1.2*277*.076 = =3D 25=20 lbm/min (still at 277 CFM at 6000 rpm). This is an approx 20% = decrease in=20 the airmass flow.  Just the opposite of what you might think.  = So the=20 operating point shifts to the left on the compressor chart when the BOV=20 opens.  This makes sense when you think about it.  The way we = get the=20 turbo to decrease it boost is to make the engine stop producing as much = exhaust=20 mass flow.  We do that by reducing the air mass flow into the=20 engine.  
 
 So the BOV opening actually = decreases your mass flow by = reducing the=20 pressure ratio from 1.5 to 1.2. But that is not in itself something bad, = it=20 depends on how far it goes under what conditions.  Its what happens = between=20 the time the BOV opens and the pressure ratio stabilizes at the new = level that=20 it appears bad things could happen.
 
By  the way, There is a role for = the BOV I=20 will mention later - I just don't think its in boost control of = aircraft=20 turbo.
 
This next part talks about the effect = the BOV=20 actually has on the compressor when it has just opened.  Its a bit = long ,so=20 just wanted to warn you.

Here's the situation.  The = compressor wheel is=20 spinning to compress the air in the intake manifold driven by the = exhaust energy=20 driving the turbine wheel. On one side of the compressor wheel we have = pressure=20 slightly below atmospheric as the air is drawn into the turbocharger. On = the=20 other side of the compressor we have air pressurized to perhaps 1.5 = atmospheres.=20 The compressor wheel is constantly fighting the battle to keep the = compressed=20 air on the manifold side of the wheel as that air tries to = move back=20 to the lower air pressure region on the inlet side of the = turbocharger.=20 This resistance takes work and produces a load on the compressor wheel = and=20 entire rotating assembly.

So what happens when the BOV opens. The = pressure on=20 the intake manifold side starts immediately venting to the atmosphere = reducing=20 the pressure inside the manifold =96 this is of course what the BOV is = designed to=20 do. The compressor wheel has been spinning at 90,000 rpm with 1.5 boost = pressure=20 ratio. Now the boost pressure ratio may be 1.2 or less in a very short = duration=20 of time (milliseconds). This immediately reduces the backpressure on the = compressor wheel caused by the manifold pressure being less than it = before the=20 venting. . The engine has not yet reacted to this change, as it is still = combusting the boost density air it had ingested into the combustion = chamber=20 before the BOV opened. Neither has the exhaust gas flow been affected -=20 yet.

So until the exhaust gas mass flow has = reduced in=20 response to the BOV opening, the turbine wheel still has the same = exhaust energy=20 whipping it around =96 but now at a instance in time, it happens that = the=20 compressor wheel is seeing a lesser load than at boost. A lesser load = due to the=20 reduced back pressure because the manifold pressure has just decreased. = The=20 lesser backpressure combined with (as yet) no reduction in the exhaust = gas mass=20 flow over the turbine wheel causes what to happened?

The combination causes the rotating = assembly to=20 instantly (well, very, very quickly) increase in rotation speed.  = So=20 the path of operation  on the compressor map might look like = that in=20 the attachment.

Now as soon as the reduction in manifold = pressure due=20 to the BOV has affected the exhaust gas output (by reducing it), then = the=20 rotating assembly will again slow down until equilibrium is attained = between the=20 loads on the compressor wheel and the energy driving the turbine wheel. = The=20 effects are over with in a few fractions of a second. to perhaps a = second=20 depending on the BOV and a number of different parameters. However, = during that=20 time the compressor under lessor load could increased its speed = dramatically.=20 Depending on a number of different parameters and operating conditions, = this=20 could result in an over-speed and damage to the turbo. The smaller the=20 compressor wheel relative to the boost it is producing the worst the = condition=20 becomes as its lesser inertia will cause it to spin up even faster than = a turbo=20 with a large compressor (and more mass/inertia).  In effect, the = blades of=20 the compressor are stalled due to the pressure differential across the = wheel and=20 like a stalled Prop can achieve a higher rpm without the load of an = unstalled=20 blade(s).

There is a role for a BOV but I do not = believe it is=20 for boost control on an aircraft installation. In an automobile when the = compressor is producing boost in the manifold and the throttle plate is = suddenly=20 closed, there is a spike in the air pressure the compressor wheel sees. = Just the=20 opposite of the condition just described. This spike in pressure tries = to get=20 pass the compressor wheel and procedures a heavier load as the = compressor wheel=20 fights to keep the pressurized air contained. This in turn slows down = the=20 compressor wheel momentarily. So even if the throttle opens again = immediately,=20 it takes a moment for the load to bleed off and compressor to spin back = up. This=20 is normally a condition encountered in an automobile perhaps in some = types of=20 racing scenarios as the throttle is opened and closed shifting gears, = etc.. The=20 BOV in effect alleviates that problem by providing a path for the = pressure spike=20 to escape in a momentary whoosh of an opening BOV.

So the BOV may (in my opinion) have a = role in an=20 automobile, but I believe its uses as a boost controller in an aircraft = may=20 actually lead to damage to the turbocharger. 

Now decreasing boost by decreasing the = exhaust mass=20 flow through the turbine housing by a wastegate of some time does not = have any=20 of these potentially harmful side effects.  This simply reduces the = mass=20 flow by diverting some of it away from the turbine wheel which naturally = slows=20 down thereby reducing the speed of the compressor wheel producing less=20 boost.

 In any case, that is how I see the=20 situation.  Different viewpoints are of course, welcomed. =20
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews,=20 NC
----- Original Message -----
From: <ericruttan@chartermi.net>
To:=20 "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 9:52 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Turbo post mortem


> Ed;
> Wouldn't an opening in the = intake=20 like john had shift the air mass the
> compressor is putting out = to the=20 right in the compressor map?
>
> I though John put the hole = there to=20 AVOID over speeding, (John has since
> explained that was not his=20 INTENT).  The idea being, relative to a
> compressor map, = instead of=20 going up the map, increasing the pressure
ratio,
> it moves = right,=20 increasing air mas, but keeping in a safe pressure = ratio.
>
> Less=20 efficient, but no surge.
>
>
> Ed Anderson = wrote:
> >=20 John, I think you may be correct about the overspeed.
> = >
> >=20 That is one of the dangers with using a blow off valve as I = mentioned
>=20 > before.  The compressor wheel is already speeding huffing and=20 puffing
faster
> > at altitude than sea level to produce the = same=20 amount of  boost and
suddenly
> > you remove some of = the=20 resistance it is working against on the intake
side
> > = through a=20 blow off valve.  Already revving at high speed because of = the
> >=20 altitude with plenty of exhaust mass flow spinning the other end - = the
>=20 > turbine the blow off valve suddenly reduces the pressure (and=20 therefore
> > resistance the compressor wheel sees) and with = less load=20 on the
compressor
> > wheel the rotating assembly rapidly = increases=20 in speed even more.
> >
> > A waste gate of course = reduces the=20 exhaust mass flow and slows the
turbine
> > down, a blow off = valve=20 (at least momentarily) simply reduces the boost
by
> > = bleeding off=20 the air the compressor is striving to pressurize to
maintain
> = > the=20 boost pressure.  Yes, eventually the lack of boost will cause = the
>=20 > exhaust flow to slow down - but not perhaps before overspeeding=20 the
rotating
> > assembly.
> >
> > So = while blow=20 off valves may be OK for autos at sea level, I would
really
> = >=20 hesitate to put one on an aircraft.  That of course just my=20 personal
> > opinion.
> >
> > Ed
> = >
>=20 > Ed Anderson
> > RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> > = Matthews,=20 NC
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John = Slade"=20 <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> >=20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 10:43 = PM
> >=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbo post mortem
> >
> >
> = >
> >>I took my (ex Rusty's) turbo apart this evening. = The=20 bearings seem to be
> >
> > in
> >
>=20 >>fairly good shape and the shaft looks ok. It looks like the=20 compressor
> >
> > wheel
> >
> = >>just=20 "came off the end" of the shaft, much like the other one did. My
> = >>uneducated guess would be that I overspeeded it.
>=20 >>
> >>By the way, I was showing 38 MAP at 11,500 ft = with the=20 wastegate fully
> >
> > open.
> >
>=20 >>However,  there's an open 1/2 inch air bleed on the = intercooler (to=20 be
> >>closed off) and a blow off valve, so the turbo may = have been=20 putting out
> >>much more than the MAP showed.
>=20 >>
> >>John Slade
> >>Rotary Cozy = IV
>=20 >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>=20 >>
> >>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>=20 >>>> Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html> >>
> >
> >
> = >
>=20 >>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >>> Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html> >
> >
>
> = >> =20 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>=20 >>  Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html

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