Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.103] (HELO ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b7) with ESMTP id 250285 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 08:51:49 -0400 Received: from EDWARD (clt25-78-058.carolina.rr.com [24.25.78.58]) by ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i68ColVw014692 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001c01c464ea$31e4f570$2402a8c0@EDWARD> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: ACRE - Paul Lamar Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:50:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C464C8.AA9ED7F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C464C8.AA9ED7F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gee, John You didn't mention the opinionated assertion by Paul that started = this e mail list. Paul's early opinionated view (meaning he had about = Plugs Up (rotating the engine 90 deg) and how we were all going to fall = out of the air. He desperately tried to come up with one theory after = another (all easily disproved) to substantiate his opinion about why = Plug Up would not work - of course, it does work just fine. Like EWP, = thick GM cores,etc, but, he was successful in dividing the rotary = community single handedly - got to give him credit for that. Paul will = frequently focus on one aspect of a multi aspect situation and ignore = the other aspects that might lead to an alternative conclusion. The = biggest thing is that Paul will seldom let facts data interfere with his = opinion. He will aggressively attack anybody who happens to have the = knowledge or experience to disagree with him - one reason you will find = many on this list who were either kicked off of Paul's list for = expressing an alternative view point or left because they did not care = for his tactics. He produced some aluminum water pump castings and apparently did not = recognize that early on in his reporting of the bench testing of their = flow rate with a 1 hp electric motor ( which produced plenty of flow) = that he had already disproved his assertion that it took 16 HP and = therefore a monster DC 12V motor to drive an electric water pump. That = even after it was pointed out to him that while there was nothing wrong = with his calculations - just his assumption that it took 16 HP to drive = sufficient coolant - he refused to budge from his opinion. To give = Paul some credit he did get the 16 HP at 6000 rpm from a credible source = and while the mechanical water pump might indeed consume 16 HP at 6000 = rpm due to pumping losses - he failed to recognize that did not = necessary mean that it TOOK 16 HP to flow sufficient coolant to keep the = rotary cool.=20 But, despite people successfully flying with EWP, the last time I hear = anything Paul about the EWP he was still adamant it would not work = despite evidence to the contrary - same with Plugs up and thick Gm = radiator cores, NACA ducts, etc. According to Paul they simply won't = work. But, we just keep flying with them anyhow - because they don't = know they won't work as we won't let them listen to Paul {:>). Paul does have a wide variety of information posted on his web site = which is well worth reading. He can be an interesting and entertaining = person to be around provided you are not in disagreement with him. Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Slade=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 10:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: ACRE - Paul Lamar Kelsey,=20 Before you head over there, let me give you the other side of this = perspective.... >He is without doubt a talented engineer and has others who also = contribute regularly. =20 Personally, I would remove the word talented and insert "opinionated" = and last time I looked, many of the "others" have given up trying to = argue with him.=20 Look at the track record: PL said [many times] that Electric Water pumps cant work for flying = rotary engines- disproved by Todd and others.=20 PL said [many times] you can't cool a rotary with a NACA scoop - = disproved by me PL makes sells [expensive] intake castings. My welder said it would = have been easier (and cheaper) to start from scratch PL says Conversion Concepts mounts are dangerous, but people are = flying them fine. PL sponsors an engine mount design that other engineers say is = dangerous. PL has never built and flown any of his own theories. >I think that everyone here should at least evaluate the info = presented on ACRE for their own edification.=20 True - there are occasional nuggets of valuable information there. = But treat most of what you read there with a "pinch of salt" especially = if PL is backing it. Don't get me wrong - I have nothing personal = against PL (other than his rude behavior in heckling Ed's excellent = presentation at Shady Bend last year), but I do get worried when he = suppresses comments that disagree with his own beliefs or agenda. He = gets so adamant that it's tempting to think he knows what he's talking = about. The evidence would tend to prove otherwise. Just my 2c. John Slade ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C464C8.AA9ED7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gee, John
 
    You didn't = mention the=20 opinionated assertion by Paul that started this e mail = list. =20 Paul's early opinionated view (meaning he had about Plugs Up  = (rotating the=20 engine 90 deg) and how we were all going to fall out of the air.  = He=20 desperately tried to come up with one theory after another (all easily=20 disproved) to substantiate his opinion about why Plug Up would = not=20 work - of course, it does work just = fine.   Like EWP,=20 thick GM cores,etc, but, he was successful in dividing the rotary = community=20 single handedly - got to give him credit for that.   Paul will = frequently focus on one aspect of a multi aspect situation and ignore = the other=20 aspects that might lead to an alternative conclusion. The biggest thing = is=20 that Paul will seldom let facts data interfere with his=20 opinion.  He will aggressively attack anybody who happens to = have the=20 knowledge or experience to disagree with him - one reason you will find = many on=20 this list who were either kicked off of Paul's list for expressing an=20 alternative view point or left because they did not care for his=20 tactics.
 
   He produced some aluminum = water pump=20 castings and apparently did not recognize that early on in his reporting = of=20  the bench testing of their flow rate with a 1 hp electric motor = ( =20 which produced plenty of flow)  that he had already disproved his = assertion=20 that it took 16 HP and therefore a monster DC 12V motor to drive an = electric=20 water pump. That even after it was pointed out to him that while = there was=20 nothing wrong with his calculations - just his assumption that it took = 16 HP to=20 drive sufficient coolant - he refused to budge from his = opinion.   To=20 give Paul some credit he did get the 16 HP at 6000 rpm from a credible = source=20 and while the mechanical water pump might indeed consume 16 HP at = 6000 rpm=20 due to pumping losses - he failed to recognize that did not necessary = mean that=20 it TOOK 16 HP to flow sufficient coolant to keep the rotary=20 cool. 
 
But, despite people successfully flying = with EWP,=20 the last time I hear anything Paul about the EWP he was still adamant it = would=20 not work despite evidence to the contrary - same with Plugs up and thick = Gm=20 radiator cores, NACA ducts, etc.  According to Paul they simply = won't work.=20 But, we just keep flying with them anyhow - because they don't know they = won't=20 work as we won't let them listen to Paul {:>).
 
Paul does have a wide variety of = information posted=20 on his web site which is well worth reading.  He can be an = interesting and=20 entertaining person to be around provided you are not in disagreement = with=20 him.
 
Ed
 
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Slade
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 = 10:21=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: ACRE - = Paul=20 Lamar

Kelsey,=20
Before you = head over=20 there, let me give you the other side of this=20 perspective....
 
>He is = without=20 doubt a talented engineer and has others who also contribute=20 regularly.   
Personally, I would=20 remove the word talented and insert "opinionated" and last time I=20 looked, many of the "others" have given up trying to argue with = him.=20
 
Look at = the track=20 record:
PL said = [many times]=20 that Electric Water pumps cant work for flying rotary engines- = disproved by=20 Todd and others.
PL said = [many times]=20 you can't cool a rotary with a NACA scoop - disproved by=20 me
PL = makes sells=20 [expensive] intake castings. My welder said it would have been easier = (and=20 cheaper) to start from scratch
PL says Conversion = Concepts=20 mounts are dangerous, but people are flying them = fine.
PL = sponsors an engine=20 mount design that other engineers say is = dangerous.
PL has = never built and=20 flown any of his own theories.
 
>I = think that=20 everyone here should at least evaluate the info presented on ACRE for = their=20 own edification. 
True - = there are=20 occasional  nuggets of valuable = information=20 there. But treat most of what you read there with a "pinch of salt" = especially=20 if PL is backing it. Don't get me wrong - I have nothing personal = against PL=20 (other than his rude behavior in heckling Ed's excellent presentation = at Shady=20 Bend last year), but I do get worried when he suppresses comments that = disagree with his own beliefs or agenda. He gets so adamant that it's = tempting=20 to think he knows what he's talking about. The evidence would tend to = prove=20 otherwise.
 
Just my=20 2c.
John=20 Slade
 
 
 
 
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