Return-Path: Received: from epic.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.181] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b6) with ESMTP id 243947 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:44:10 -0400 Received: from sdn-ap-030ilchicp0357.dialsprint.net ([65.178.179.103] helo=thegrid.net) by epic.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BhbFQ-0006Q5-00 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:43:36 -0700 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:45:22 -0500 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Carbon Fiber P-Port manifold update Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-4--912427466 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Jerry Hey To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <9DB1DBF0-CECC-11D8-8C8F-0003931B0C7A@thegrid.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) --Apple-Mail-4--912427466 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Alex, 1.75 I.D. x 2.0 O.D is what the throttle body is where it joins=20= the runner. Use a bell mouth at the plenum. That's what my current=20= thinking is. The injector bosses are the hard part. Can you do it=20 the way Paul has drawn it up? On Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 02:24 AM, Alex Madsen wrote: > Jerry > > Good to hear you are making progress on the TB. I went back and check=20= > my drawings. I used a 1.75=94 ID (is this correct?) which tapers to a = 2=94=20 > at the plenum. I think I will reduce or eliminate the taper because it=20= > was a little hard to get the CF on the foam form and to allow=20 > placement of the fuel injector boss anywhere on the runner. > > =A0Alex > > =A0 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20= > On Behalf OfJerry Hey > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 6:56 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Carbon Fiber P-Port manifold update > > =A0 > > > On Monday, July 5, 2004, at 01:51 PM, Alex Madsen wrote: > > I have been doing a lot of drawing this weekend for my manifold=20 > design. I have been mainly working on a P-port design because it is=20 > the least complicated and has a large (relatively :) market potential.=20= > =A0 > > There was concern that I had fuel injectors on the hot side of the=20 > engine on my last design. =A0I think that my current design should=20 > address this concern while allowing those that want to experiment with=20= > fuel injector placement the ability to do so. Attached are picture of=20= > the design. The fuel injector can be conceivably placed at any=20 > location along the manifold runners. The drawing show a single=20 > injector boss however double injector bosses are possible. =A0The fuel=20= > injector boss currently sits at a 45 degree angle to the runners. I=20 > plan to use high temperature flame retardant Garolite (fiberglass=20 > composite) for the injector boss. The injector bosses are attached to=20= > the CF runners with epoxy at the desired location. =A0The epoxy will=20= > also fill in any gaps. The force trying to dislodge the injectors,=20 > even during a backfire is relatively small because of the small area=20= > of the injector hole that goes into the runner. Injectors are not=20 > attached to a fuel rail but rather an injector cap with NPT threads=20 > for an AN T fitting. This allows easy customer configuration of=20 > injector layout and eliminates the bulk and custom machining of a fuel=20= > rail (of course if you want to use fuel rails you could). =A0=A0=A0The=20= > injector is retained by the clamping force of 2 bolts that run between=20= > the cap and boss. > > =A0 > > The manifold runners will likely 2=94 ID and made of 2 ply carbon = fiber=20 > and high temperature epoxy. I have not yet determined what I will use=20= > for as a form for the CF. I am leaning towards wax but foam is also an=20= > option. The current length of the runners is 21.5=94 and 25.7=94 = including=20 > Jerry=92s throttle body. The plenum can face forwards or backwards and=20= > has a volume of 1.2 L. I am not happy with the plenums shape and I=20 > will probably redesign it one of these days. > > =A0 > > As a side note to Jerry > > How goes development of your throttle body? Is there any chance of=20 > adding a flange to your TB? =A0It would make attaching intake = manifolds=20 > much easer. > > =A0 > > Alex Madsen > > > Alex, the throttle bodies are done and awaiting installation which in=20= > turn is awaiting the completion of the exhaust system before I tear=20 > the engine down. The present throttle bodies will attache to the=20 > runners with hose and clamps. I will think about the flange. The=20 > runner/throttle body diameter is two inches O.D. not I.D. Assuming the=20= > fuel rail has to be straight (is this necessarily so?), then the=20 > injectors, two for each runner, have to be in the same plane and=20 > parallel to each other. That is a very nice drawing. Jerry > > > > > assembly.jpg> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > =20= --Apple-Mail-4--912427466 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Alex, 1.75 I.D. x 2.0 O.D is what the throttle body is where it joins the runner. Use a bell mouth at the plenum. That's what my current thinking is. The injector bosses are the hard part. Can you do it the way Paul has drawn it up? =20 On Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 02:24 AM, Alex Madsen wrote: = Arial0000,0000,807FJerry = Arial0000,0000,807FGood to hear you are making progress on the TB. I went back and check my drawings. I used a 1.75=94 ID (is this correct?) which tapers to a 2=94 = at the plenum. I think I will reduce or eliminate the taper because it was a little hard to get the CF on the foam form and to allow placement of the fuel injector boss anywhere on the runner. = = Arial0000,0000,807F=A0Alex = Arial0000,0000,807F=A0 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf OfJerry Hey Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 6:56 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Carbon Fiber P-Port manifold update Times New Roman=A0 Times New RomanOn Monday, July 5, 2004, at 01:51 PM, Alex Madsen wrote: Times New RomanI have been doing a lot of drawing this weekend for my manifold design. I have been mainly working on a P-port design because it is the least complicated and has a large (relatively :) market potential. =A0 There was concern that I had fuel injectors on the hot side of the engine on my last design. =A0I think that my current design should address this concern while allowing those that want to experiment with fuel injector placement the ability to do so. Attached are picture of the design. The fuel injector can be conceivably placed at any location along the manifold runners. The drawing show a single injector boss however double injector bosses are possible. =A0The fuel injector boss currently sits at a 45 degree angle to the runners. I plan to use high temperature flame retardant Garolite (fiberglass composite) for the injector boss. The injector bosses are attached to the CF runners with epoxy at the desired location. =A0The epoxy will also fill in any gaps. The force trying to dislodge the injectors, even during a backfire is relatively small because of the small area of the injector hole that goes into the runner. Injectors are not attached to a fuel rail but rather an injector cap with NPT threads for an AN T fitting. This allows easy customer configuration of injector layout and eliminates the bulk and custom machining of a fuel rail (of course if you want to use fuel rails you could). =A0=A0=A0The injector is retained by the clamping force of 2 bolts that run between the cap and boss. =A0 The manifold runners will likely 2=94 ID and made of 2 ply carbon fiber and high temperature epoxy. I have not yet determined what I will use for as a form for the CF. I am leaning towards wax but foam is also an option. The current length of the runners is 21.5=94 and 25.7=94 = including Jerry=92s throttle body. The plenum can face forwards or backwards and has a volume of 1.2 L. I am not happy with the plenums shape and I will probably redesign it one of these days. =A0 As a side note to Jerry How goes development of your throttle body? Is there any chance of adding a flange to your TB? =A0It would make attaching intake manifolds much easer. =A0 Alex Madsen Times New RomanAlex, the throttle bodies are done and awaiting installation which in turn is awaiting the completion of the exhaust system before I tear the engine down. The present throttle bodies will attache to the runners with hose and clamps. I will think about the flange. The runner/throttle body diameter is two inches O.D. not I.D. Assuming the fuel rail has to be straight (is this necessarily so?), then the injectors, two for each runner, have to be in the same plane and parallel to each other. That is a very nice drawing. Jerry <<<< Homepage: = http://www.flyrotary.com/ Times New RomanArchive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html =20= --Apple-Mail-4--912427466--