Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.100] (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b1) with ESMTP id 3130886 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:18:50 -0500 Received: from edward (clt25-78-058.carolina.rr.com [24.25.78.58]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i2SDImSn015023 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:18:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005601c414c7$390f2dc0$2402a8c0@edward> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] One step forward and .9 steps back. Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:18:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0053_01C4149D.5004A840" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C4149D.5004A840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message ----- Original Message -----=20 From: daveleonard@cox.net=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 12:27 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] One step forward and .9 steps back. While trying to solve the low RPM running of my engine I thought maybe = my EGR ports were not plugged well so I spent a day taking off the turbo = and manifold, more thoroughly blocking the EGR - no effect. I was also = able to set the injector transition below idle. It runs the same on = either the primay or secondary injectors. The timming is checked with a = light, and both sets of plugs seem to be working properly. Here are my current issues submitted for your perusal: Problem 1: It runs great over about 1900-2000 RPM, but slowing down = through that speed (a MAP of about 14) it begins to run rough and = requires an extra rich mixture to run at all. The MAP also goes up to = about 17 or 18 despite a fall in RPM. It is as if when the RPM gets low = it cant suck enough vacuum then the computer starts using the wrong part = of the MAP table. I am about ready to set the idle at 2000 and say = problem solved. Sound reasonable or is something wrong? Set it for 1900-2000 idle and press on. With my latest manifold it = will idle (poorly) down to around 1100 rpm (appears to be too rich), but = there is really no reason not to idle at 2000 rpm, the fuel saved = between 2000 rpm and say 1600 rpm for the amount of time you will spend = at idle is almost undetectable. With just a prop as a flywheel mass, = the engine just seems happier with a bit more rpm for idle. Perry can = idle at a lower rpm with his direct drive because as best I recall he = uses the more massive Manual transmission flywheel (20 lbs?) Problem 2: I was very disappointed to discover that turning off the = alternator makes the engine barely run, especially with any other = electrical load, even with 2 batteries connected. They are fresh = healthy batteries. The voltage drops from 14.2 to 11.5. If running at = less than 2300 RPM when the alternator is turned off the engine begins = to surge or stops running all together (however, running on just one set = of coils improves the problem.) If running at higher RPM the engine = will just sag a little. =20 I agree this is your most serious issue in my opinion. With two = batteries (17AH), my engine did not even notice that the alternator is = not on line. However, my voltage does drop from the alternator 14.4 to = the battery 12.3 volts. I have no idea how much current the LS1 coils = draw, but the Mazda coils appears to be in the vicinity of 5 amps = average. The fuel pump would add another 5-7 amps depending. Injectors = would probably average 2-4 amps (depending on whether the low impedance = or high). So if my figures are anywhere close a fully charged 17 AH = battery should last at least 30-45 minutes without alternator. Two = should, of course last longer. I would have no less size than #4 cable running from my battery to the = bus. Any smaller and your nominal current draw could cause a voltage = drop. Also check your wiring and make certain both batteries are = actually on-line and servicing your high amp components. =20 I wonder if the LS1 coils have a higher minimum voltage than the = stock. Perhaps they take a higher current surge to saturate the = magnetic core? This calls in serious issues about my electrical reliability. I may = decide to install a switch to disable one set of coils, or trading the = momentary switch that came with the EC2 to a regular 3 position switch. = Those LS1 Coils sure do seem to need a lot of Juice. Problem 3: (THE BIG PROBLEM) My coolant doesn't seem to be flowing = well, despite the fact that I have no thermostat and have welded the = bypass passage in the pump housing. I ran for almost an hour at 3000 = RPM with no apparent problem. Going up to 4000 RPM after that the = coolant quickly overheated and boiled over. Surprisingly, the radiator = was just luke-warm. Now I am really worried. I remember that someone = else recently was having a similar problem but I lost track of how it = was solved. I am considering some possible causes. A) My AN-16 hose = (engine to Rad) maybe is just not big enough - unlikely because the = fitting on the rad doesn't even get warm. B) the Water pump sold to me = by Adkins is really for a 3rd gen and is running backward. - possible = because the outlet side of the rad seems to get warmer than the inlet = side, but only slightly maybe and it is closer to the turbo. C) I have = a flap of rubber partially blocking the outlet hose. D) The pump just = refuses to properly prime itself. E) Maybe the thermostat bypass = passage is not properly welded closed. - can't see it because of the = welded plate, will have to look with a dental mirror. F) ???? any input = or other ideas? Regarding cooling: A. The AN-16 should be plenty and not a part of = the problem B: Don't know on this one but I would presume the pump = would be a bit less efficient if running backwards - perhaps not enough = to cause these types of problems, but on theother hand it wouldn't be = helping. C: Could be I suppose, but I doubt it. Hard to say about the = rest.=20 Dave, a possibility that might account for the symptoms you are seeing = is air trapped in the cooling system. If your coolant is getting hot = enough to boil but your radiators are only luke warm, then entrapped air = could account for many of the symptoms you are seeing. In my system, = you can feel the sides of the radiator tanks and determine how much = coolant is in the radiator. Its hot where the coolant is and only warm = to cool where it has not reached. Typically on a refill of the coolant = system only 2/3 of the radiator is initially filled with coolant. It = takes me 2-3 runs around >3000 rpm to flush the air out. Fill up your header tank, run the engine at 3000-4000 rpm for 30 sec = or so and then see if the level of fluid in your tank has gone down or = remains the same. If it goes down (replaced by air) then you have air = in your system and I would continue this until the coolant level does = not change. Only thing I can think to advise you to try. Ed Anderson Dave Leonard (still rather be working on these issues than shaping = that exit duct) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C4149D.5004A840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 daveleonard@cox.net
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 = 12:27=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] One step = forward and=20 .9 steps back.

While trying to solve the low RPM running of my engine I thought = maybe my=20 EGR ports were not plugged well so I spent a day taking off the turbo = and=20 manifold, more thoroughly blocking the EGR - no effect.  I was = also able=20 to set the injector transition below idle.  It runs the same on = either=20 the primay or secondary injectors.  The timming is checked with a = light,=20 and both sets of plugs seem to be working properly.

Here are my = current=20 issues submitted for your perusal:

Problem 1:  It runs = great over=20 about 1900-2000 RPM, but slowing down through that speed (a MAP of = about 14)=20 it begins to run rough and requires an extra rich mixture to run at = all. =20 The MAP also goes up to about 17 or 18 despite a fall in RPM.  It = is as=20 if when the RPM gets low it cant suck enough vacuum then the computer = starts=20 using the wrong part of the MAP table.  I am about ready to set = the idle=20 at 2000 and say problem solved.  Sound reasonable or is something = wrong?

 
Set it for 1900-2000 = idle and press=20 on.  With my latest manifold it will idle (poorly) down to around = 1100=20 rpm (appears to be too rich), but there is really no reason not to = idle at=20 2000 rpm, the fuel saved between 2000 rpm and say 1600 rpm for the = amount of=20 time you will spend at idle is almost undetectable.  With just a = prop as=20 a flywheel mass, the engine just seems happier with a bit more rpm for = idle.  Perry can idle at a lower rpm with his direct drive = because as=20 best I recall he uses the more massive Manual transmission flywheel = (20=20 lbs?)

Problem 2:  I was very disappointed to discover that = turning off=20 the alternator makes the engine barely run, especially with any other=20 electrical load, even with 2 batteries connected.   They are = fresh=20 healthy batteries.  The voltage drops from 14.2 to 11.5.  If = running=20 at less than 2300 RPM when the alternator is turned off the engine = begins to=20 surge or stops running all together (however, running on just one set = of coils=20 improves the problem.)  If running at higher RPM the engine will = just sag=20 a little.

 
I agree this is your = most serious=20 issue in my opinion.  With two batteries (17AH), my engine did = not even=20 notice that the alternator is not on line.  However, my voltage = does drop=20 from the alternator 14.4 to the battery 12.3 volts.  I have no = idea how=20 much current the LS1 coils draw, but the Mazda coils appears to be in = the=20 vicinity of 5 amps average.  The fuel pump would add another 5-7 = amps=20 depending.  Injectors would probably average 2-4 amps (depending = on=20 whether the low impedance or high).  So if my figures are = anywhere close=20 a fully charged 17 AH battery should  last at = least 30-45=20 minutes without alternator. Two should, of course last = longer.
 
I would have no less = size than #4=20 cable running from my battery to the bus.  Any smaller and = your=20 nominal current draw could cause a voltage drop.  Also check = your=20 wiring and make certain both batteries are actually on-line and = servicing your=20 high amp components. 
 
I wonder if the LS1 = coils have a=20 higher minimum voltage than the stock.  Perhaps they take a = higher=20 current surge to saturate the magnetic core?

This calls in serious issues about my electrical = reliability.  I=20 may decide to install a switch to disable one set of coils, or trading = the=20 momentary switch that came with the EC2 to a regular 3 position = switch. =20 Those LS1 Coils sure do seem to need a lot of Juice.

Problem 3: = (THE=20 BIG PROBLEM) My coolant doesn't seem to be flowing well, despite the = fact that=20 I have no thermostat and have welded the bypass passage in the pump=20 housing.  I ran for almost an hour at 3000 RPM with no apparent=20 problem.  Going up to 4000 RPM after that the coolant quickly = overheated=20 and boiled over.  Surprisingly, the radiator was just = luke-warm. =20 Now I am really worried.  I remember that someone else recently = was=20 having a similar problem but I lost track of how it was solved.  = I am=20 considering some possible causes.  A) My AN-16 hose (engine to = Rad) maybe=20 is just not big enough - unlikely because the fitting on the rad = doesn't even=20 get warm.  B)  the Water pump sold to me by Adkins is really = for a=20 3rd gen and is running backward. - possible because the outlet side of = the rad=20 seems to get warmer than the inlet side, but only slightly maybe and = it is=20 closer to the turbo.  C)  I have a flap of rubber partially = blocking=20 the outlet hose.  D)  The pump just refuses to properly = prime=20 itself.  E) Maybe the thermostat bypass passage is not properly = welded=20 closed. - can't see it because of the welded plate, will have to look = with a=20 dental mirror.  F) ???? any input or other ideas?
Regarding = cooling:  A. =20 The AN-16 should be plenty and not a part of the problem  = B:  Don't=20 know on this one but I would presume the pump would be a bit less = efficient if=20 running backwards - perhaps not enough to cause these types of = problems, but=20 on theother hand it wouldn't be helping. C: Could be I suppose, but I = doubt=20 it. Hard to say about the rest. 
Dave, a possibility that might = account for the=20 symptoms you are seeing is air trapped in the cooling system.  If = your=20 coolant is getting hot enough to boil but your radiators are only luke = warm,=20 then entrapped air could account for many of the symptoms you are=20 seeing.  In my system, you can feel the sides of the radiator = tanks and=20 determine how much coolant is in the radiator.  Its hot where the = coolant=20 is and only warm to cool where it has not reached.  Typically on = a refill=20 of the coolant system only 2/3 of the radiator is = initially filled with=20 coolant.  It takes me 2-3 runs around >3000 rpm = to=20 flush the air out.
Fill up your header = tank, run the=20 engine at 3000-4000 rpm for 30 sec or so and then see if the level of = fluid in=20 your tank has gone down or remains the same.  If it goes down = (replaced=20 by air) then you have air in your system and I would continue this = until the=20 coolant level does not change.  Only thing I can think to advise = you to=20 try.
 
Ed = Anderson

Dave Leonard (still rather = be working=20 on these issues than shaping that exit duct)

 

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