X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com" Received: from mail-wr1-f42.google.com ([209.85.221.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.3.9) with ESMTPS id 730230 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 14:00:46 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.42; envelope-from=breytenbachleroux@gmail.com Received: by mail-wr1-f42.google.com with SMTP id j22so12168883wrb.13 for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 11:00:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=Qkzo46gbYwzyPYRntN3KNZuY/hPS2U20+3LIcjgArz0=; b=JtkAy8MYa70HJohsxkFRWxYwsMSo53u5vNb6Lt6/HuJrrAE1KLkTprwiwozVPvQ6rb hJ75eINGvCeguFUHKGo1O4xd2QpkZeN7cZCXsZObqusXCxl7ft9jDfhvueH2S5j28mt6 GznFWIHgps3MebMLTJaTKkVHMXzjDhvC1CC+B0VGKL5weMHlkFp3cReUXoil/fJE17Pi AEQbbJCECizGnpdNhYEhs53wt6zaEA5ud+Pc8dheXQ182GJlzREWl0fHXJzjxRnmwN0x aVPiz7ufSJdUI0TryVK9kGkyxnpqQZ+vcevDEZEZmJqNZ9dmGQsqEVa8p0Y0c4AQjHgp 4ydw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=Qkzo46gbYwzyPYRntN3KNZuY/hPS2U20+3LIcjgArz0=; b=DAbsYNTlIaWgENxU0Kt4Y6KseGyd559dBVtCX5eDU/3eCP9KgBiL5WBJLpKaRGQUQq wCV3W92KVqG1sAdaWd0XHL0HI2oofzT4rzPcssBXChCCN4oB4xKlMuN1sqoDkrQDcEjj wnIShXk8IbfwFtXMogbvu2KlQYQIRrn/Odhb7o6TSTq4rLYU4jbeWcnD8Z95U6WCBIKZ pA39CCLeX7wW/E3LDovaSPCqvljbovKOipKFxTgbXR9HqOakefGyWCHj1BeXZN6AJUjQ hWlJFJvxyEREB042X2jLtTuxUaQmf5bR11angna03AKUsGp0Sb6KvMCGnIQ2qzDpADnK EI1w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530O/1ARb8RmNZxuZaYrRZ2ZIZhN15ookJYxv6We2rLVg7V1a/7D HTQOxVFW0kfeU9Q6AP5WxgImKF18o05Lyw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwXo7/uzaFWaSkMZ5qFqzq4+dAJDcDJ5vWZCV7+/PZLE6Jqg9g2cA03w7YfG+AamlmuisEqsw== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4538:0:b0:1ef:5f07:f01b with SMTP id j24-20020a5d4538000000b001ef5f07f01bmr10035715wra.443.1645988428294; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 11:00:28 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.116] ([160.226.139.191]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m12-20020adfe0cc000000b001ede2dd604esm8172589wri.106.2022.02.27.11.00.26 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 27 Feb 2022 11:00:27 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-89A7F968-ABF7-4EE8-AB05-A6341FD85D0B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Ed's spreadsheet Message-Id: Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 21:00:25 +0200 To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17H35) --Apple-Mail-89A7F968-ABF7-4EE8-AB05-A6341FD85D0B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF =EF=BB=BF Finn : I am still building my engine and FFW set-up , but this is the fundamentals on coolant flo ,that i got on cooling a 2 Rota= ry 13 B , think that many of these principles is the same on other models too like the= Renesis=20 The coolant - 50% ethylene glycol and 50% water. The flo must be 35 - 40 gallons per minute through the system at more or les= s 6000 rpm. The averaged pump on these flowrates need more or less 3 Hp The pump can =E2=80=9Ccavitate=E2=80=9D and loose efficiency if there is too= much friction in the system , and the flo rate is to slow. This cooling is based on a heat exhancher (radiator) of 600 cube inch. I think that the basics is to start with bigger cooling hoses. 40 mm Try to keep them as straight as possible and avoid bends to the minnimum. Then the airflo and distribution and heat exhange is a topic on its own. Included are data and work by Fred Moreno (revised oct 21 1999) What is interesting in Fred=E2=80=99s work is that a 10 gph increase in cool= ant flow reduced cooling drag by 15 % https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JVh3KTa0LyiKQLKmaR4pRpDnLuuA_y17/view?usp=3D= drivesdk Sent from my iPhone Le Roux Breytenbach=20 >> On 27 Feb 2022, at 18:20, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote: > =EF=BB=BF > Well Looking at the chart you referernced it looks like the mixture for 50= /50 the CP could range from 0.79 at -30F to 0.88 at 100F. IF 100 % glyco th= en at -10F we have a CP of 0.53 and at 100 0f 0.66. So looks like I picked a= worst/best case condition. But, using your example I get a cp of 0.8807. N= ot a 30% difference but more than 5% >=20 > In any case, I would suggest if you find data you feel more confident in,= do not hesitate to subsitute it. >=20 > Ed > pecific Heat of Ethylene Glycol based Water Solutions > Specific Heat - cp - of ethylene glycol based water solutions at various t= emperatures are indicated below >=20 > Specific Heat - cp (Btu/lb oF)=20 > Ethylene Glycol Solution > (% by weight) Temperature (=C2=B0C)=20 > -50 -40 -30 -20 -10 0 10 20 30 40= 50 60 70 80 90 100 > 0 1.0038 1.0018 1.0004 0.9= 9943 0.99902 0.99913 0.99978 1.0009 1.0026 1.0= 049 1.0076 > 10 0.97236 0.97422= 0.97619 0.97827 0.98047 0.98279 0.98521= 0.98776 0.99041 0.99318 0.99607 > 20 0.93576 0.93976= 0.94375 0.94775 0.95175 0.95574 0.95974= 0.96373 0.96773 0.97173 0.97572 > 30 0.89373 0.89889 0.9= 0405 0.90920 0.91436 0.91951 0.92467 0.9= 2982 0.93498 0.94013 0.94529 0.95044 > 40 0.84605 0.85232 0.85858= 0.86484 0.87111 0.87737 0.88364 0.88990= 0.89616 0.90243 0.90869 0.91496 0.92122 > 50 0.79288 0.80021 0.80753 0.8= 1485 0.82217 0.82949 0.83682 0.84414 0.8= 5146 0.85878 0.86610 0.87343 0.88075 0.8= 8807 > 60 0.72603 0.73436 0.74269 0.75102 0.7= 5935 0.76768 0.77601 0.78434 0.79267 0.8= 0100 0.80933 0.81766 0.82599 0.83431 0.8= 4264 0.85097 > 70 0.67064 0.67992 0.68921 0.69850 0.7= 0778 0.71707 0.72636 0.73564 0.74493 0.7= 5422 0.76350 0.77279 0.78207 0.79136 0.8= 0065 0.80993 > 80 0.61208 0.62227 0.63246 0.64265 0.6= 5285 0.66304 0.67323 0.68343 0.69362 0.7= 0381 0.71401 0.72420 0.73439 0.74458 0.7= 5478 0.76497 > 90 0.58347 0.59452 0.60557= 0.61662 0.62767 0.63872 0.64977 0.66082= 0.67186 0.68291 0.69396 0.70501 0.71606 > 100 0.53282 0.54467 0.5= 5652 0.56838 0.58023 0.59209 0.60394 0.6= 1579 0.62765 0.63950 0.65136 0.66321 > I'm not sure how > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Sent: 2/26/2022 9:29:22 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet >=20 >> =46rom your 24 Aug 2012 post about cooling section in the spreadsheet: >> "Cooling mass flow is dependent on: >> 1. A 0.7 cp compared to pure water of 1.0 Cp - this compensates for the t= ypical anitfreeze dilution of the specific heat of water. " >>=20 >> Roughly weighing a 1 Gal 50/50 antifreeze jug I get maybe 7.9 pounds afte= r subtracting 0.3 pound for the jug). Pure water about 8.3 pounds. That's ab= out 5%.=20 >> I realize it changes somewhat with temperature but nowhere near 30% ? >>=20 >> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html >>=20 >> Difference between water and 50/50 at 100C: 1000/1030 or 3%. Not 30%. >>=20 >> Difference in specific heat (whatever that is): 1.0079 / 0.88807 =3D 13% (= for 50/50 at 100C). >>=20 >> What am I missing? >>=20 >> Finn >>=20 >>> On 2/26/2022 10:48 AM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote: >>>=20 >>> I agree, must have got it from someplace credible - like Bill Shertz. >>> CP was 1.0 for pure H20 and somewhat less with antifreeze mixed in. >>> I had a primary pully from MazdaTrix that reduced water pump speed - sin= ce engine was turning faster than normal in automobile, did not want to have= any cavitation. So my water pump did turn a bit slower than stock. >>> Not necessarily - note that water flow drops off if pump speed increases= into the "caviation range" >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ------ Original Message ------ >>> From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" >>> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >>> Sent: 2/25/2022 10:39:43 AM >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet >>>=20 >>>> Thanks Ed. >>>>=20 >>>> But 185.85 seems pretty detailed for a SWAG. >>>> Any chance you got it from Bill Shertz's tests (which I unfortunately c= an't find the posts about)? >>>>=20 >>>> What determines "Cp Coolant"? >>>> Heat transfer efficiency from engine to water and water to rad? >>>>=20 >>>> =46rom measuring the rims of the e-shaft pulley (122mm) and water pump p= ulley (112mm) it looks like the Renesis water pump runs a bit slower (factor= 1.09 compared to your 1.18). >>>>=20 >>>> Should water flow be directly proportional to water pump RPM? >>>>=20 >>>> Finn >>>>=20 >>>> On 2/25/2022 10:07 AM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote: >>>>> Sorry, Finn. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Too much water under the bridge, pretty sure I did not make it up out o= f thin air. I suspect I visited some pump websites to arrive at a SWAG. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Ed >>>>>=20 >>>>> ------ Original Message ------ >>>>> From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" >>>>> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >>>>> Sent: 2/24/2022 2:25:56 PM >>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Ed's spreadsheet >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Ed, >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =46rom where did you get the 13B coolant flow numbers (Pump Factor)? >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> I want to be certain that I have adequate coolant flow. >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> Finn >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> --- >>>>=20 --Apple-Mail-89A7F968-ABF7-4EE8-AB05-A6341FD85D0B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=EF=BB=BF
=EF=BB= =BF=

Finn : I am still building my engine and FFW set-up ,
 but this is the fundamentals on coolant flo ,that i got on coo= ling a 2 Rotary 13 B ,
think that many of these principles is the s= ame on other models too like the Renesis 
The coolant - 50% e= thylene glycol and 50% water.
The flo must be 35 - 40 gallons per m= inute through the system at more or less 6000 rpm.
The averaged pu= mp on these flowrates need more or less 3 Hp
The pump can =E2=80=9C= cavitate=E2=80=9D and loose efficiency if there is too much friction in the s= ystem , and the flo rate is to slow.
This cooling is based on a he= at exhancher (radiator) of 600 cube inch.
I think that the basics i= s to start with bigger cooling hoses. 40 mm
Try to keep them as st= raight as possible and avoid bends to the minnimum.
 Then the= airflo and distribution and heat exhange is a topic on its own.
<= br>
Included are data and work by Fred Moreno (revised oct 21 1999= )
What is interesting in Fred=E2=80=99s work is that a 10 gph incr= ease in coolant flow reduced cooling drag by 15 %

<= a href=3D"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JVh3KTa0LyiKQLKmaR4pRpDnLuuA_y17/= view?usp=3Ddrivesdk">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JVh3KTa0LyiKQLKmaR4pRp= DnLuuA_y17/view?usp=3Ddrivesdk


<= br>
Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach 

On 27 Feb 2022, at 1= 8:20, eanderson@carolina.rr.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF= =20 =20

Well Looking at the chart you referernced it looks li= ke the mixture for 50/50 the CP could range from 0.79 at -30F to 0.88 at 100= F.  IF 100 % glyco then at -10F we have a CP of 0.53 and at 100 0f 0.66= .  So looks like I picked a worst/best case condition.  But, using= your example I get a cp of 0.8807.  Not a 30% difference but more than= 5%


In any case, I would suggest if you find data you feel = more confident in, do not hesitate to subsitute it.
=
Ed

pecific Heat of Ethylene Gly= col based Water Solutions

Specific Heat - = cp - of ethylene glycol based water so= lutions at various temperatures are indicated below

<= td class=3D"btulbf" style=3D"border:1px solid #CCC;padding:2px;text-align:ce= nter;">= 0.86484= = <= td class=3D"btulbf" style=3D"border:1px solid #CCC;padding:2px;text-align:ce= nter;">0.612080.764970.61662= 0.58023
Specific Heat - cp (Btu/lb = oF) 
Ethylene Glycol Solution
(% by weight)		Tempera= ture (=C2=B0C) 
-50-40-30-20-100102030405060708090100
01.00381.00181= .00040.999430.999020.999130.999781.00= 091.00261.00491.0076
10<= /td>0.972360.974220.976190.978270.98= 0470.982790.985210.987760.990410.99318= 0.99607
200.935760= .939760.943750.947750.951750.955740.95= 9740.963730.967730.971730.97572
300.893730.898890.904050.909200.914360.919510.924670.929820.934980.940130.945290.95044
400.846050.852320.858580.871110.877370.883640.889900.896160.902430.908690.914960.92122
500.792880.800210.807530.814850.822170.829490.836820.844140.851460.858780.866100.873430.880750.88807
600.726030= .734360.742690.751020.759350.767680.776010.784340.792670.801000.809330.817660.825990.834310.842640.85097
= 700.670640.679920.68= 9210.698500.707780.717070= .726360.735640.744930.754220.763500.77= 2790.782070.791360.800650.80993
800.622270.632460.642650.652850.663040.673230.683430.693620.703810.714010.724200.734390.744580.75478
900.583470.594520.605570.627670.638720.649770.660820.671860.682910.693960.705010.71606
1000.53282<= /td>0.544670.556520.568380.59209= 0.603940.615790.627650.639500.651360.66= 321
    I'm not sure how
    ------ Original Message ------
    To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
    Sent: 2/26/2022 9:29:22 PM
    Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet

    =46rom your 24 Aug 2012 post about cooling section in the spreadsheet:
    "Cooling mass flow is dependent on:
    1. A  0.7 cp compared to pure wate= r of 1.0 Cp - this compensates for the typical anitfreeze dilution of the specific heat of water. "

    Roughly weighing a 1 Gal 50/50 antifreeze jug I get maybe 7.9 pounds after subtracting 0.3 pound for the jug). Pure water about 8.3 pounds. That's about 5%.
    I realize it changes somewhat with temperature but nowhere near 30% ?

    https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/e= thylene-glycol-d_146.html

    Difference between water and 50/50 at 100C: 1000/1030 or 3%. Not 30%.

    Difference in specific heat (whatever that is): 1.0079 / 0.88807 =3D 13% (for 50/50 at 100C).

    What am I missing?

    Finn

    On 2/26/2022 10:48 AM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote:
    =20 =20 =20

    I agree, must have got it from someplace credible - like Bill Shertz.
    CP was 1.0 for pure H20 and somewhat less with antifreeze mixed in.
    I had a primary pully from MazdaTrix that reduced water pump speed - since engine was turning faster than normal in automobile, did not want to have any cavitation.  So my water pump did turn a bit slower than stock.
    Not necessarily - note that water flow drops off if pump speed increases into the "caviation range"


    ------ Original Message ------
    To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t;
    Sent: 2/25/2022 10:39:43 AM
    Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet

    Thanks Ed.

    But 185.85 seems pretty detailed for a SWAG.
    Any chance you got it from Bill Shertz's tests (which I unfortunately can't find the posts about)?

    What determines "Cp Coolant"?
    Heat transfer efficiency from engine to water and water to rad?

    =46rom measuring the rims of the e-shaft pulley (122mm) and water pump pulley (112mm) it looks like the Renesis water pump runs a bit slower (factor 1.09 compared to your 1.18).

    Should water flow be directly proportional to water pump RPM?

    Finn

    On 2/25/2022 10:07 AM, eanderson@ca= rolina.rr.com wrote:
    =20
    Sorry, Finn.

    Too much water under the bridge, pretty sure I did not make it up out of thin air.  I suspect I  visited so= me pump websites to arrive at a SWAG.

    Ed

    ------ Original Message ------
    To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
    Sent: 2/24/2022 2:25:56 PM
    Subject: [FlyRotary] Ed's spreadsheet

    Hi Ed,
     
    =46rom where did you get the 13B coolant flow numbers (Pump Factor)?
     
    I want to be certain that I have adequate coolant flow.
     
    Finn
     
     
    ---


    = --Apple-Mail-89A7F968-ABF7-4EE8-AB05-A6341FD85D0B--