From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Temperature sensors
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
References: <list-71646@logan.com>
Message-ID: <ec8a7049-05e2-be74-e91c-f5a951e5c3fe@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2021 16:19:37 -0500
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Well, if all the probes have exactly the same error and they're 
operating in the same environment, maybe it isn't that bad, especially 
if you know the approximate error.
Any chance that the silver solder is adding a junction? My engineer 
neighbor talks about just twisting the wires and hitting them with a TIG 
torch (no filler)

Also, can you set up the EM3 for type J? Lower temp range so they might 
be more accurate down around 200 degrees F than K probes.

Charlie

On 6/4/2021 11:25 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
> I got the digital meat/cooking thermometer I ordered. It actually 
> indicates 212°F in boiling water.
> Strapped a home made thermocouple (Type K wire with ends twisted and 
> silver soldered) to the tip and put it in boiling water.
> Had to change the EM3 scale factor by 4% to make the EM3 read 212°F.
>
> The MAX6675 chip does have max cold junction error of +-3°C and 
> +-2.25°C temperature error. I guess just my bad luck that it adds up 
> to 4°C or more at 100°C. Not quite the accuracy I was going for.
>
> Finn
>
> On 5/21/2021 9:47 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
>> That should make it fairly simple to roll your own; you can silver 
>> solder the junction into the fitting after you weld the junction.
>>
>> On 5/21/2021 8:27 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
>>> The EM3 likes grounded thermocouple wires, however not really sure 
>>> it's required.
>>> They go into balanced inputs. Actually there are four 8x1 
>>> multiplexers in the EM3. They have clamping diodes to protect inputs.
>>>
>>> Finn
>>>
>>> On 5/21/2021 4:36 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Don't forget to check on whether the EM3 wants grounded or 
>>>> ungrounded probes. I forget which is which, but one type of 'meter' 
>>>> will accept either style; the other won't.
>>>>
>>>> On 5/21/2021 2:43 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
>>>>> When I made my own engine monitor for my RV-3 back in 1999 I found 
>>>>> it easiest to use sensors that output linear 0 to 5V.
>>>>>
>>>>> So when I got an EM3 from Tracy, I modified it to use such sensors 
>>>>> (LM35, TMP35, TC03 and similar ICs). My reasoning was that they 
>>>>> were spec'd to accuracy of a couple of degrees over temperature 
>>>>> range of interest.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wondered why the EM3 had 8 EGT and 8 CHT inputs. (Actually in 
>>>>> the EM3 the 8 CHT inputs also go into the same MAX6675 chip 
>>>>> designed for Type K thermocouple (EGT) wire.)
>>>>>
>>>>> After several failures and weird readings of LM35's I'm now 
>>>>> beginning to see the wisdom of Tracy's approach. And the LM35CAZ 
>>>>> is not cheap either.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you buy a roll of type K thermocouple wire (less than $1/foot), 
>>>>> even if it's off a bit compared to an ideal Type K wire,  all 
>>>>> measurement points should be accurate relative to each other. And 
>>>>> you just need to calibrate one input for absolute accuracy and use 
>>>>> those calibration factors for all the other inputs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out why the coolant 
>>>>> output from my right radiator is so much lower than the left's. I 
>>>>> even made 3/4" cu tubing inserts with 1/4" wells in them for the 
>>>>> ICs to make sure I was measuring actual fluid temps.
>>>>>
>>>>> After swapping the hoses to the radiators,  the coolant out (out 
>>>>> from engine) sensor now inexplicably reads lower by more than 20 
>>>>> deg F  than the in-engine sensor. Thought it might have been air 
>>>>> in coolant near sensor, but lower readings remain after multiple 
>>>>> engine runs,
>>>>>
>>>>> For the CHT inputs, I had bought Type J thermocouple wire, 
>>>>> reasoning that it'd be more sensitive than Type K. Well, 50uV/C is 
>>>>> really not much better than 41uV/C, and being fed into a chip that 
>>>>> expects Type K really makes it much harder to re-correct (the 
>>>>> MAX6675 chip corrects for ambient temp for Type K not J).
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I think I'll rip out all sensors, order a roll of Type J wire, 
>>>>> make and install new sensors: 1/8NPT plugs drilled for 5/32" brass 
>>>>> tubing with wire twisted and soldered to the pinched-shut brass 
>>>>> tubing. (My old sensors were 1/8NPT plugs drilled for 1/4" cu 
>>>>> tubing that the LM35's could fit in.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Quite a bit of work, but hopefully will pay off in terms of 
>>>>> reliable temperature readings. Without those I don't think I can 
>>>>> optimize the cooling system.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope that others may learn from my mistakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>
>
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