X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ot1-f45.google.com ([209.85.210.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.3.5) with ESMTPS id 14763 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 21 May 2021 23:53:26 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.45; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by mail-ot1-f45.google.com with SMTP id n32-20020a9d1ea30000b02902a53d6ad4bdso19895073otn.3 for ; Fri, 21 May 2021 20:53:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bobuIY/pTWJ6OtSpdBVgQqpSpvtwo4Cc8SWoErL6rmo=; b=PXaiXsEgmVavk170MdGCQ1gUd5ub6kDKe0ZsRl19jrQ7sdNlAJXb8ceJxXFSsg3h8J PHk50fOJKvge9pTj7LZathQ26JJ1sCwBAsmvOfWvSM+k+v0mM80QhHx9hZ1jLWIJ3Zl7 8ruKoANUonFj4J6+knJhtKaE8mwo5aZX6QsSo2ShPOAcQDqDQWwJylHKalYEOvzvXDYP M0uTSXHl0EHitRJSmoXdTXU/0Q6KLr9r0mxMvtOmrqlmu7ToIhu6vJ+MMyU3qOeFYHQQ yr/oBftzlIq7GTpz93/urko9H5l4K2MOXBGjxD6u8O4+BzwPRuTwsgY3vZESAPWl7bgr Gcbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=bobuIY/pTWJ6OtSpdBVgQqpSpvtwo4Cc8SWoErL6rmo=; b=kqwD39LgvEjpfjd+9LtzjnQd8Dae4itSQTTbbtWMWs6skVzY9ig4Qa4MwnjDYfK3Ou GFNV72qHkcxY0TlK/86AEQHgxw1Bx0Rtpw8ReNkfOaFtAewqAG16qYCB9+D7N6h6NEyj Pb1NmoPVXALLfkrrT+458qmpKd89iIkZ6qHhjPDpfhu/LRg5/dPyB1raHv8769wPw6cX x2kmZMVG17mwnJgc5FQVTY9oEbu2yxMeBteyc4iawrJ2bbiLqFl9fPsvWeXJ191MXQ7+ zXgZcFw+nLbo0qlhhHsyw4Lexnk+k+/IkFvZg933hkj+ueRTOV4c8M1tD+lULQkgL3tF ZNag== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530sYYuUMtrnjZxKmX1drl2o4U7yUc5WtDBuP9M2c2ru9D0B5Knx K3J/R4hx72LMGMVZAGRrxc6GqYB9EOapCBQiSWjDbS5i6IY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxnQ/kOT/M6RHCtKoNdO2LNrsdIo40lpRWKfttyMEOt1zT6Z169f2tZdGE7+G1PFo5NFxK2fkGzMyOvXbzaKE8= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6b19:: with SMTP id g25mr8564740otp.62.1621655589883; Fri, 21 May 2021 20:53:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 20:52:54 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: PSRU oil pressure To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006213f305c2e31dcf" --0000000000006213f305c2e31dcf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Oh and I agree with Charlie's comments. I found that even the slightest crank case pressure causes the oil in the PSRU to ride high enough to seep out past the drive (sun gear) gasket and create a fine mist of oil out of the flywheel area. I have finally installed an oil return pump to pump back the oil from both the turbo and the PSRU. However, so far that plumbing is leaking more than the PSRU gasket. Dave Leonard On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 9:16 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 10:16 AM Charlie England > wrote: > >> On 5/21/2021 8:18 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: >> >> I played around the past few days with oil and psru. I added a psi gauge >> on top of psru,and vented the housing back to the oil dipstick tube. I have >> an oil breather tube from the fill port. We should have a vent on the oil >> crankcase. Without it, I did a pull and turned off the engine and 5psi >> stayed within the system until I cracked open the dipstick to relieve the >> pressure. >> >> On Neil's PSRU, the oil inlet is on the front half. The front drain is on >> the side, which connects to the back drain that is an10, then to the oil >> pan. >> >> Anyways, the stock psru inlet restrictor was 9/64. Once warmed up and >> running at 2200rpm static on the ground, engine oil is about 100psi for me. >> PSRU pressure was about 2.5psi and lots of oil was venting back into the >> oil dipstick tube. I kept on sizing down the restrictor until 1/16th. That >> mostly kept the vent clean and clear of any pressure build up inside the >> psru. >> >> I'm not sure why Tracy recommends having the psru fuel of oil, maybe uses >> different bearings then Neil's? From a truck gear case perspective, plantey >> gears only need a coating of oil, not full and pressurized. I'm probably >> wrong, but throwing it out there. ?.? >> >> - Matt Boiteau >> >> Others have far more experience than me, but here are my thoughts. >> >> All internal combustion engines will pressurize the crankcase, due to >> 'blowby' past the rings (apex & side seals, for us). Also, if the test is >> begun with a cold engine, simple temperature rise will increase pressure in >> the crankcase. >> >> I'm not familiar with the internal construction of Neil's drive. Does it >> use pressure fed sleeve bearings, ball bearings, or a combination? If there >> are pressure fed sleeve bearings (like typical crankshaft main & connecting >> rod bearings, or the E-shaft bearings in a rotary), limiting flow/pressure >> more than recommended could compromise the bearings. Even with an all-ball >> bearing system, limiting flow too much *could* have the potential to >> overheat the system, since the oil is expected to remove heat in some >> designs. (Design dependent) IIRC, Tracy has said that his drive (pressure >> fed sleeve bearing at the input end) should *not* have a flow limiting >> orifice. >> >> If Neil's drainback port is on the side, that would seem to imply that he >> expects the drive to operate with the housing remaining filled to the level >> of the drain port. Tracy's drain ports are on the bottom, at least implying >> that the drive is ok with only pressure fed lube to the sleeve bearings and >> directed or random spray to the ball bearings, and no residual oil pooled >> in the housing. Though I haven't seen Tracy weigh in on the subject, the >> fact that the drains are on the bottom implies that he didn't intend for >> the housing to run full of oil. What Steve Boese & others found is that the >> AN4 drain lines seem to be too small for gravity flow to keep up with the >> pressure feed, and, combined with the lack of a vent back to the crankcase, >> causes the drive to carry air back to the crankcase in the return line and >> eventually fill with oil. The mods that have been made were to enlarge the >> return lines and add a top vent to the housing, so crankcase air can >> replace the air carried out with the returning oil. >> >> Charlie >> > Correction: the drain lines on Tracy's drive are AN6; the feed line is > AN4. Momentary brainlock. > >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> <#m_2636386108795903914_m_-653913219946811090_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> > --0000000000006213f305c2e31dcf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oh and I agree with Charlie's comments.

=
I found that even the slightest crank case=C2=A0pressure causes the oi= l in the PSRU to ride high enough to seep out past the drive (sun gear) gas= ket and create a fine mist of oil out of the flywheel area.=C2=A0 I have fi= nally installed an oil return pump to pump back the oil from both the turbo= and the PSRU.=C2=A0 However, so far that plumbing is leaking more than the= PSRU gasket.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Dave Leonard
=
On Fri= , May 21, 2021 at 9:16 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


On Fri, May 21, = 2021 at 10:16 AM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 5/21/2021 8:18 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboitea= u@gmail.com wrote:
=20
I played around the past fe= w days with oil and psru. I added a psi gauge on top of psru,and vented the housing back to the oil dipstick tube. I have an oil breather tube from the fill port. We should have a vent on the oil crankcase. Without it, I did a pull and turned off the engine and 5psi stayed within the system until I cracked open the dipstick to relieve the pressure.

On Neil's PSRU, the oil inlet is on the front half. The front drain is on the side, which connects to the back drain that is an10, then to the oil pan.

Anyways, the stock psru inlet restrictor was 9/64. Once warmed up and running at 2200rpm static on the ground, engine oil is about 100psi for me. PSRU pressure was about 2.5psi and lots of oil was venting back into the oil dipstick tube. I kept on sizing down the restrictor=C2=A0until 1/16th. That mostly kept the vent clean and clear of any pressure build up inside the psru.

I'm not sure why Tracy recommends=C2=A0having the psru fu= el of oil, maybe uses different bearings then Neil's? From a truck gear case perspective, plantey gears only need a coating of oil, not full and pressurized. I'm probably wrong, but throwing it out there. ?.?

- Matt Boiteau
Others have far more experience than me, but here are my thoughts.

All internal combustion engines will pressurize the crankcase, due to 'blowby' past the rings (apex & side seals, for us). Als= o, if the test is begun with a cold engine, simple temperature rise will increase pressure in the crankcase.

I'm not familiar with the internal construction of Neil's drive= . Does it use pressure fed sleeve bearings, ball bearings, or a combination? If there are pressure fed sleeve bearings (like typical crankshaft main & connecting rod bearings, or the E-shaft bearings in a rotary), limiting flow/pressure more than recommended could compromise the bearings. Even with an all-ball bearing system, limiting flow too much *could* have the potential to overheat the system, since the oil is expected to remove heat in some designs. (Design dependent) IIRC, Tracy has said that his drive (pressure fed sleeve bearing at the input end) should *not* have a flow limiting orifice.

If Neil's drainback port is on the side, that would seem to imply that he expects the drive to operate with the housing remaining filled to the level of the drain port. Tracy's drain ports are on the bottom, at least implying that the drive is ok with only pressure fed lube to the sleeve bearings and directed or random spray to the ball bearings, and no residual oil pooled in the housing. Though I haven't seen Tracy weigh in on the subject, the fact that the drains are on the bottom implies that he didn't inten= d for the housing to run full of oil. What Steve Boese & others found is that the AN4 drain lines seem to be too small for gravity flow to keep up with the pressure feed, and, combined with the lack of a vent back to the crankcase, causes the drive to carry air back to the crankcase in the return line and eventually fill with oil. The mods that have been made were to enlarge the return lines and add a top vent to the housing, so crankcase air can replace the air carried out with the returning oil.

Charlie
Correction: the drain lines on Tracy&= #39;s drive are AN6; the feed line is AN4. Momentary brainlock.
3D"" Virus-free. www.avast.com=
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