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Fri, 7 May 2021 14:21:35 +0000 Received: by kubenode544.mail-prod1.omega.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 08164b231e7ffcdac88fa2b3bb75ba45; Fri, 07 May 2021 14:21:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Renesis secondary injectors To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 10:21:27 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D4295F46700985E13F86CAFD" Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 210507-4, 05/07/2021), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.18231 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/16) Content-Length: 39983 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D4295F46700985E13F86CAFD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, for some reason the Rigol default is 0V mid screen. The EM3 software does average some channels like airspeed and altitude that Tracy found fluctuated. I don't think fuel pressure is one of them. I've got 33 analog channels. I think the goal is to display and log at least once each second. That gives up to 30mS to select, let stabilize and A/D-convert each channel. Found this note in the EM3 Data Acquisition Module program: "99% of the time it will be in a delay waiting for the MAX6675 to complete a conversion which takes about 170 ms.� Since there are 16 TC inputs, this loop will take approximately 2.72 seconds to complete." The MAX6675 outputs a digital (serial) result. It has four 8-channel muxes in front of it. (Yes, ideally there would be 8 MAX6675's for EGT inputs and 8 equivalent chips for CHT inputs but I guess Tracy found that cost and/or space prohibitive.) Uses three analog inputs in the PIC18F4620: One for 8 channel 0-5V inputs One for 8 channel 0-5V (was 0-2V) inputs One for battery/system voltage input. Note that one can specify how many CHT, EGT and other analog inputs are used in order to speed it up. I could try to modify the program to sample/average all 17 0-5V channels while waiting for the MAX6675 to complete conversion of one of the 16 CHT/EGT channels. I'll have to look up the PIC18F4620 A/D conversion time specs. But a lot easier to just add a capacitor to the fuel pressure sensor, at least for now. Note that I originally wanted to roll my own engine monitor. I went with the EM3 in order to utilize its programming that reads and displays data from the EC3 and also allows some programming of the EC3. Finn On 5/7/2021 4:22 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: > Hi Finn > > Looking at your CRO screen shot, can you confirm what I'm looking at? > Is it set for DC, 1V/Div, 5mSec/Div ? > If so where is 0v - Mid Screen? > > I would have thought any processor based engine monitoring system > would read and average many samples and so filter out any > instantaneous �fluctuations in the pressure. > > Cheers > > Steve > > > > > > >> On 7 May 2021, at 7:46 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net >> > > wrote: >> >> OK, so I hooked up a scope to the fuel pressure sensor. >> Sensor has 50mV/psi sensitivity. >> Below 20"Hg (secondaries not opening) just very slight pulses. >> But above 20"Hg -- about 4100 RPM -- I see 1.24V or 25psi peak-peak� >> pulses. >> So that explains the wildly fluctuating fuel pressure readings. >> Depending on when the pressure sensor voltage is sampled by the >> engine monitor there can be 25 psi or more difference in engine >> monitor readings and data logging. >> >> If you look at the picture I attached on May 4th, you'll see the >> pressure sensor is located at the end of the secondary fuel rail >> (solid tube) . Apparently the rubber lines from the T-fitting to >> primary and secondary rails are enough to somewhat dampen the primary >> injector fuel pressure pulses. I probably should add an R-C filter >> between sensor and monitor to get more reliable fuel pressure readings. >> >> With today's 15 deg F lower OAT the engine transitions smoothly at >> the staging point. I'm again seeing cracks in the JB-weld around >> primary runners, so possible that they may be collapsing somewhat >> under high ambient temps -- maybe not. Remember I'm using the stock >> exhaust manifold. Even with the stock heat shield and an additional >> 0.016 alum shield, the heat from the exhaust manifold is intense. >> That is a huge chunk of metal that'll radiate heat with low or no >> airflow over it after shutdown. A definite drawback from using the >> stock exhaust manifold. Maybe I don't have a leak in my welds on the >> exhaust manifold and it was just higher OATs? >> >> Another suspect for odd behavior is the engine controller's >> temperature sensor. I located it in the left radiator air scoop. >> Probably a bad idea when running on the ground. >> >> Finn >> >> On 5/4/2021 2:08 PM, Charlie Englandceengland7@gmail.comwrote: >>> Does the pressure increase have a solid 'step' at the exact staging >>> point, or is it just rising in that area? How much increase on the >>> gauge? Where is the reference for fuel pressure measurement? >>> >>> The pressure *regulator* should be referenced to MAP (manifold >>> pressure), and will raise absolute fuel pressure as manifold >>> pressure rises. If the gauge is referenced to atmosphere (or >>> absolute), it would indicate a rise in pressure as the throttle is >>> opened. >>> >>> Charlie >>> >>> On 5/4/2021 12:44 PM, William Schertzwschertz343@gmail.comwrote: >>>> Finn >>>> No rx-8 injector experience, but if at the staging point, if the >>>> EC-2-3 shuts off the primary injectors, and the secondaries haven't >>>> opened, fuel out of the manifold decreases, so the pumps would >>>> raise the pressure. Are you confident that the controller is >>>> reducing the primaries and starting the secondaries at the same time? >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:07 AM Bobby HughesBHughes@qnsinc.net >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Is the fuel pressure really increasing or is it the EM2/3 >>>> reading?� Steve B. has posted good advice for tuning around the >>>> staging point with different size injectors. >>>> >>>> >>>> Bobby >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net >>>> ] >>>> *Sent:*Tuesday, May 04, 2021 11:46 AM >>>> *To:*Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:*[FlyRotary] Renesis secondary injectors >>>> >>>> >>>> I noticed that my indicated fuel consumption appeared to be >>>> about 50% higher than actual. >>>> >>>> So I decided to start calibrating engine monitor fuel flow. >>>> >>>> The first step is to check/adjust fuel flow around the staging >>>> point (20"Hg) where the secondary injectors open (secondary >>>> injectors are larger than primary injectors on the 4-port Renesis). >>>> >>>> I thought I had previously tuned the engine for a smooth >>>> transition around the staging point, at least to the point when >>>> I didn't notice anything when dvancing throttle through the >>>> staging point. >>>> >>>> However, now doing stationary run ups around the staging point >>>> (especially when engine is getting hot) I get the weird >>>> phenomenon of it going very lean when secondary injectors >>>> (supposedly) open. Another odd thing is that fuel >>>> pressure/in/creases markedly. >>>> >>>> On theHomebuiltAirplanes.com >>>> forum a guy that raced RV-8s >>>> for a couple of seasons mentioned troubles with the stock >>>> Renesis injectors. >>>> >>>> Now I'm wondering if I have (intermittently) bad secondary >>>> injectors -- not opening when they should. >>>> >>>> However, I'm confused by the rise in fuel pressure. Is there a >>>> injector failure mode where pressure in intake runners could >>>> push back through the injector into the fuel line? >>>> >>>> Note that these are factory-new, maybe 10 to 20 hours of total >>>> engine run (or attempted run) time. >>>> >>>> Another possibility is heated secondary fuel rail. But if there >>>> were boiling fuel there the fuel pressure should still drop >>>> when secondary injectors open... >>>> >>>> I tried to look but didn't find a chart of 87 octane 10% >>>> ethanol boiling point vs temperature. >>>> >>>> Anybody here had any trouble with stock Renesis injectors? >>>> Symptoms? Other ideas? >>>> >>>> Finn >>>> >>>> RX-8 4-port: >>>> Primary: Denso 195500-4430��� 33.3 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi >>>> (350cc/min)��� 13.8 ohm >>>> Secondary: Denso 195500-4460��� 51.4 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi >>>> (540cc/min)��� 13.8 ohm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> <~WRD000.jpg> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus >>>> software. >>>> www.avast.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Disclaimer* >>>> >>>> The information contained in this communication from the sender >>>> is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient >>>> and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the >>>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >>>> copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the >>>> contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be >>>> unlawful. >>>> >>>> This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may >>>> have been automatically archived by*Mimecast Ltd*, an innovator >>>> in Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing >>>> a*safer*and*more useful*place for your human generated data. >>>> Specializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find >>>> out moreClick Here . >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --------------D4295F46700985E13F86CAFD Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Yes, for some reason the Rigol default is 0V mid screen.

The EM3 software does average some channels like airspeed and altitude that Tracy found fluctuated.

I don't think fuel pressure is one of them.

I've got 33 analog channels. I think the goal is to display and log at least once each second. That gives up to 30mS to select, let stabilize and A/D-convert each channel.

Found this note in the EM3 Data Acquisition Module program:
"99% of the time it will be in a delay waiting for the MAX6675 to complete a conversion which takes about 170 ms.� Since there are 16 TC inputs, this loop will take approximately 2.72 seconds to complete."

The MAX6675 outputs a digital (serial) result. It has four 8-channel muxes in front of it. (Yes, ideally there would be 8 MAX6675's for EGT inputs and 8 equivalent chips for CHT inputs but I guess Tracy found that cost and/or space prohibitive.)

Uses three analog inputs in the PIC18F4620:
One for 8 channel 0-5V inputs
One for 8 channel 0-5V (was 0-2V) inputs
One for battery/system voltage input.

Note that one can specify how many CHT, EGT and other analog inputs are used in order to speed it up.

I could try to modify the program to sample/average all 17 0-5V channels while waiting for the MAX6675 to complete conversion of one of the 16 CHT/EGT channels.

I'll have to look up the PIC18F4620 A/D conversion time specs.

But a lot easier to just add a capacitor to the fuel pressure sensor, at least for now.

Note that I originally wanted to roll my own engine monitor. I went with the EM3 in order to utilize its programming that reads and displays data from the EC3 and also allows some programming of the EC3.

Finn

On 5/7/2021 4:22 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Finn

Looking at your CRO screen shot, can you confirm what I'm looking at?
Is it set for DC, 1V/Div, 5mSec/Div ?
If so where is 0v - Mid Screen?

I would have thought any processor based engine monitoring system would read and average many samples and so filter out any instantaneous �fluctuations in the pressure.

Cheers

Steve






On 7 May 2021, at 7:46 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

OK, so I hooked up a scope to the fuel pressure sensor.
Sensor has 50mV/psi sensitivity.
Below 20"Hg (secondaries not opening) just very slight pulses.
But above 20"Hg -- about 4100 RPM -- I see 1.24V or 25psi peak-peak� pulses.
So that explains the wildly fluctuating fuel pressure readings. Depending on when the pressure sensor voltage is sampled by the engine monitor there can be 25 psi or more difference in engine monitor readings and data logging.

If you look at the picture I attached on May 4th, you'll see the pressure sensor is located at the end of the secondary fuel rail (solid tube) . Apparently the rubber lines from the T-fitting to primary and secondary rails are enough to somewhat dampen the primary injector fuel pressure pulses. I probably should add an R-C filter between sensor and monitor to get more reliable fuel pressure readings.

With today's 15 deg F lower OAT the engine transitions smoothly at the staging point. I'm again seeing cracks in the JB-weld around primary runners, so possible that they may be collapsing somewhat under high ambient temps -- maybe not. Remember I'm using the stock exhaust manifold. Even with the stock heat shield and an additional 0.016 alum shield, the heat from the exhaust manifold is intense. That is a huge chunk of metal that'll radiate heat with low or no airflow over it after shutdown. A definite drawback from using the stock exhaust manifold. Maybe I don't have a leak in my welds on the exhaust manifold and it was just higher OATs?

Another suspect for odd behavior is the engine controller's temperature sensor. I located it in the left radiator air scoop. Probably a bad idea when running on the ground.�

Finn

On 5/4/2021 2:08 PM, Charlie England�ceengland7@gmail.com�wrote:
Does the pressure increase have a solid 'step' at the exact staging point, or is it just rising in that area? How much increase on the gauge? Where is the reference for fuel pressure measurement?�

The pressure *regulator* should be referenced to MAP (manifold pressure), and will raise absolute fuel pressure as manifold pressure rises. If the gauge is referenced to atmosphere (or absolute), it would indicate a rise in pressure as the throttle is opened.

Charlie

On 5/4/2021 12:44 PM, William Schertz�wschertz343@gmail.com�wrote:
Finn
No rx-8 injector experience, but if at the staging point, if the EC-2-3 shuts off the primary injectors, and the secondaries haven't opened, fuel out of the manifold decreases, so the pumps would raise the pressure. Are you confident that the controller is reducing the primaries and starting the secondaries at the same time?
Bill

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:07 AM Bobby Hughes�BHughes@qnsinc.net�<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Is the fuel pressure really increasing or is it the EM2/3 reading?� Steve B. has posted good advice for tuning around the staging point with different size injectors.�

�

Bobby

�

From:�Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]�
Sent:�Tuesday, May 04, 2021 11:46 AM
To:�Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject:�[FlyRotary] Renesis secondary injectors

�

I noticed that my indicated fuel consumption appeared to be about 50% higher than actual.

So I decided to start calibrating engine monitor fuel flow.

The first step is to check/adjust fuel flow around the staging point (20"Hg) where the secondary injectors open (secondary injectors are larger than primary injectors on the 4-port Renesis).

I thought I had previously tuned the engine for a smooth transition around the staging point, at least to the point when I didn't notice anything when dvancing throttle through the staging point.

However, now doing stationary run ups around the staging point (especially when engine is getting hot) I get the weird phenomenon of it going very lean when secondary injectors (supposedly) open. Another odd thing is that fuel pressure�increases markedly.

On the�HomebuiltAirplanes.com�forum a guy that raced RV-8s for a couple of seasons mentioned troubles with the stock Renesis injectors.

Now I'm wondering if I have (intermittently) bad secondary injectors -- not opening when they should.

However, I'm confused by the rise in fuel pressure. Is there a injector failure mode where pressure in intake runners could push back through the injector into the fuel line?

Note that these are factory-new, maybe 10 to 20 hours of total engine run (or attempted run) time.

Another possibility is heated secondary fuel rail. But if there were boiling fuel there the fuel pressure should still drop when secondary injectors open...

I tried to look but didn't find a chart of 87 octane 10% ethanol boiling point vs temperature.

Anybody here had any trouble with stock Renesis injectors? Symptoms? Other ideas?

Finn

RX-8 4-port:
Primary: Denso 195500-4430��� 33.3 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (350cc/min)��� 13.8 ohm�
Secondary: Denso 195500-4460��� 51.4 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (540cc/min)��� 13.8 ohm

�
�

<~WRD000.jpg>

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.�
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The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.

This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been automatically archived by�Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a�safer�and�more useful�place for your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find out more�Click Here.



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