X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f177.google.com ([209.85.208.177] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 1481544 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 05 May 2021 10:07:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.177; envelope-from=mattboiteau@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f177.google.com with SMTP id e12so2645500ljn.2 for ; Wed, 05 May 2021 07:07:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=/CRFt+d2XSYkbMxLndy+HMQWK4Ku5eYPdZYukQN035k=; b=LqstrvTL31TPqDDunKTG1sQA5t03h8tyKPL8+dfetPJyd/3Vc9XfNgsMsxxQ+wIWCj h6qy+23B9lYd/4W0sEnmznRMx8+hE1Rf3joMaK9jLFX/e4AM8C6izE1+8aRYeXtZTarg Y8U/ovzSeg7HX+kePb+0mK85qplVRJu0jyAUHrYE1YDa+CeY+D2VF9zJRNCILcNkx8oU sMbU5yV111WNm00rasx0/GOS3wLeApwPeRWl6PDVEAVWYW5FKV5jZzB1Ge9kGcQAs2XQ YlIlt1JyWuqPollfnz5LDi1fdnKAAa/6BK7Hk/iEy3Ox6qYMrsn/7jCaXzuxFDu1sKM/ OkwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=/CRFt+d2XSYkbMxLndy+HMQWK4Ku5eYPdZYukQN035k=; b=JMzqKX4xctWiGX573uTf4KYl+nUC7glPNdo+pq1xZ9bi8NO8mpO3kgoi7OmDPupn/k TPxiZLlbsbaPtRK7+1JFQYFzNo+3aZjVcwA8YLJLpoDqonQoN2I9gDMuL0NraVrY5f2z +sxla7F2kUlT26VOB0f5T9PEPrjMo7eahHt1xRrIzdEV0KBWIkkkxvEOVzxm59oDpEtf B1FMVH//zyhZI8CQXS3aJ8W63KRGC/hvM8wdX6mnX9g/hK0XZ4H7R/SNPqJ2b3BF/HKn efdK2TvGYo+6See7yhaPJiobyV37yYyq4hxxIzRMR4TzTvL9R3GOs/qMeeU6TdL+Wkc9 UkYg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531D8cJZKw2s9csbmgaHX9SkaS3qVfaU1wJ3uU0Wv2bZyiR8kbjW ge758Mex2E3anpZhkCgxyOZXjv6W4z+DDU5z3LW7znvSpIFfc6A7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwqXm3GfNEDHLlzC+Lmaps637/kDmWlsVxdWfZecJoOFw4xJ92Xv+xJokg4R+COOIxnfNzDfkIGMC9b82ob9IY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:b28:: with SMTP id b40mr21849091ljr.454.1620223603743; Wed, 05 May 2021 07:06:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 10:06:32 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Renesis secondary injectors To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005b9e2305c195b47a" --0000000000005b9e2305c195b47a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bobby, you have a picture of your setup? I really like the SDS when I go to redo my intake system. I send my injectors to https://injector-rehab.com/ to turn my Yellows into 850cc. Little overboard, so I'll go back to Reds and Blues. But since I have Megasquirt, I can control the staging a lot easier. - Matt Boiteau On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 9:42 AM Bobby Hughes BHughes@qnsinc.net < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Finn, > > > > On that note I have (4) almost new Denso Yellow injectors that I can=E2= =80=99t use > with new FWF. I used short machined weld on injector holder from SDS on t= he > runners. I used (4) 540 cc for years before I decided to try smaller > injectors. The 425cc injectors provided a more consistent EC3 tune. Your > welcome to they them if you like. > > > > Bobby > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 04, 2021 9:34 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Renesis secondary injectors > > > > Hi Finn > > > > I have similar setup to you. Renesis 4 port. > > > > I moved to all 4 Blue (secondary size) injectors as the red primaries > 290cc were saturating (ON all the time) by just before staging at 20 inch= es > of manifold. > > So the engine was going lean just before staging, making tuning the > mixture table difficult. > > > > I=E2=80=99m not sure you should trust your pressure readings without firs= t > checking them against a reliable source. > > > > I went with the 4 Blue 540cc injectors only as I had spares, however woul= d > prefer the 6 port yellows 425cc as they would be a better size and I read > that they apparently have a better spray pattern. > > > > Also, I had wondered about the pulsation damper. I don=E2=80=99t have one= and all > seems OK with no problem with reading pressure on the Dynon from a basic > VDO pressure sender. > > > > I must get around to reprogramming the EC3 and switch out the EC2 and > calibrate the EM3 fuel flow. > > I=E2=80=99m getting my fuel flow info from the Dynon and Fuel Flow transd= ucer. > > I dead ended my fuel rail after the regulator so as to be able to use the > one fuel flow transducer. > > > > Cheers > > > > Steve Izett > > > > > > > > On 5 May 2021, at 4:12 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > > Ah...I thought you were saying that the pressure *increased*. If it's > fluctuating randomly, and you're sampling once/sec with no damper, it cou= ld > be all over the map (pardon the pun). > > Same symptom with digital MAP gauges; I was seeing swings of several > inches in MAP on my Lyc's engine monitor until I put a restrictor in the > feed to the MAP sensor (creates a damper). Unfortunately, I don't thing > that would work with a fuel line. ;-) > > Charlie > > On 5/4/2021 2:49 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: > > On 5/4/2021 2:08 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: > > Does the pressure increase have a solid 'step' at the exact staging point= , > or is it just rising in that area? > > Yes, solid steps. > One second sampling intervals. > > How much increase on the gauge? Where is the reference for fuel pressure > measurement? > > 18 to 64 psi, about 36 average. > At end of secondary fuel rail. > > > > The pressure *regulator* should be referenced to MAP (manifold pressure), > and will raise absolute fuel pressure as manifold pressure rises. If the > gauge is referenced to atmosphere (or absolute), it would indicate a rise > in pressure as the throttle is opened. > > The regulator does respond to MAP changes. Originally I thought it was to= o > sensitive and the source of the wild swings in fuel pressure. But there i= s > a high-pressure fuel filter between the regulator and the fuel rails. > Figured that would dampen any pulses before they reach the regulator but > probably not true. > > Actually I don't have a dampener in the MAP line to the regulator. Should > probably try that. Since it wasn't an issue when tuning the engine I forg= ot > about it. The EC3 probably averages MAP samples. > > The more I think about it, if there are pressure pulses caused by > injectors opening and closing, the one-second sampling of the fuel pressu= re > sender could be randomly be hitting highs and lows. I really should hook = up > an O'scope to the pressure sensor to see what the signal from it looks > like. > > Finn > > > Charlie > > On 5/4/2021 12:44 PM, William Schertz wschertz343@gmail.com wrote: > > Finn > > No rx-8 injector experience, but if at the staging point, if the EC-2-3 > shuts off the primary injectors, and the secondaries haven't opened, fuel > out of the manifold decreases, so the pumps would raise the pressure. Are > you confident that the controller is reducing the primaries and starting > the secondaries at the same time? > > Bill > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:07 AM Bobby Hughes BHughes@qnsinc.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Is the fuel pressure really increasing or is it the EM2/3 reading? Steve > B. has posted good advice for tuning around the staging point with > different size injectors. > > > > Bobby > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 04, 2021 11:46 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Renesis secondary injectors > > > > I noticed that my indicated fuel consumption appeared to be about 50% > higher than actual. > > So I decided to start calibrating engine monitor fuel flow. > > The first step is to check/adjust fuel flow around the staging point > (20"Hg) where the secondary injectors open (secondary injectors are large= r > than primary injectors on the 4-port Renesis). > > I thought I had previously tuned the engine for a smooth transition aroun= d > the staging point, at least to the point when I didn't notice anything wh= en > dvancing throttle through the staging point. > > However, now doing stationary run ups around the staging point (especiall= y > when engine is getting hot) I get the weird phenomenon of it going very > lean when secondary injectors (supposedly) open. Another odd thing is tha= t > fuel pressure* in*creases markedly. > > On the HomebuiltAirplanes.com forum a guy that raced RV-8s for a couple > of seasons mentioned troubles with the stock Renesis injectors. > > Now I'm wondering if I have (intermittently) bad secondary injectors -- > not opening when they should. > > However, I'm confused by the rise in fuel pressure. Is there a injector > failure mode where pressure in intake runners could push back through the > injector into the fuel line? > > Note that these are factory-new, maybe 10 to 20 hours of total engine run > (or attempted run) time. > > Another possibility is heated secondary fuel rail. But if there were > boiling fuel there the fuel pressure should still drop when secondary > injectors open... > > I tried to look but didn't find a chart of 87 octane 10% ethanol boiling > point vs temperature. > > Anybody here had any trouble with stock Renesis injectors? Symptoms? Othe= r > ideas? > > Finn > > RX-8 4-port: > Primary: Denso 195500-4430 33.3 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (350cc/min) 13.8 > ohm > Secondary: Denso 195500-4460 51.4 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (540cc/min) 13.8 > ohm > > > > > ------------------------------ > > <~WRD000.jpg> > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > > > *Disclaimer* > > The information contained in this communication from the sender is > confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others > authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby > notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in > relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and m= ay > be unlawful. > > This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been > automatically archived by *Mimecast Ltd*, an innovator in Software as a > Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a *safer* and *more useful* place > for your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, archiving and > compliance. To find out more Click Here > . > > > > > > > > > --0000000000005b9e2305c195b47a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bobby, you have a picture of your setup? I really like the= SDS when I go to redo my intake system.

I send my injec= tors to=C2=A0https://injector-rehab= .com/ to turn my Yellows into 850cc. Little overboard, so I'll go b= ack to Reds and Blues. But since I have Megasquirt, I can control the stagi= ng=C2=A0a lot easier.=C2=A0

- Matt Boiteau

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 9:42 AM Bobby Hughes BHughes@qnsinc.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Finn,

=C2=A0

On that note I have (4) almost new Denso Yel= low injectors that I can=E2=80=99t use with new FWF. I used short machined = weld on injector holder from SDS on the runners. I used (4) 540 cc for years before I decided to try smaller injectors. The= 425cc injectors provided a more consistent EC3 tune. Your welcome to they = them if you like.

=C2=A0

Bobby

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2021 9:34 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Renesis secondary injectors

=C2=A0

Hi Finn

=C2=A0

I have similar setup to you. Renesis 4 port.<= u>

=C2=A0

I moved to all 4 Blue (secondary size) injectors as = the red primaries 290cc were saturating (ON all the time) by just before st= aging at 20 inches of manifold.

So the engine was going lean just before staging, ma= king tuning the mixture table difficult.

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m not sure you should trust your pressure = readings without first checking them against a reliable source.

=C2=A0

I went with the 4 Blue 540cc injectors only as I had= spares, however would prefer the 6 port yellows 425cc as they would be a b= etter size and I read that they apparently have a =C2=A0better spray patter= n.

=C2=A0

Also, I had wondered=C2= =A0about the=C2=A0pulsation damper. I=C2=A0don=E2=80=99t have one and all s= eems OK with no problem with reading pressure on the Dynon from a basic VDO= pressure sender.

=C2=A0

I must get around to rep= rogramming the EC3 and switch out the EC2 and calibrate the EM3 fuel flow.= =C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m getting my f= uel flow info from the Dynon and Fuel Flow transducer.=C2=A0<= u>

I dead ended my fuel rai= l after the regulator so as to be able to use the one fuel flow transducer.=

=C2=A0

Cheers<= /u>

=C2=A0

Steve Izett

=C2=A0

=C2=A0



On 5 May 2021, at 4:12 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

=C2=A0

Ah...I thought you were saying that the pressure *in= creased*. If it's fluctuating randomly, and you're sampling once/se= c with no damper, it could be all over the map (pardon the pun).

Same symptom with digital MAP gauges; I was seeing swings of several inches= in MAP on my Lyc's engine monitor until I put a restrictor in the feed= to the MAP sensor (creates a damper). Unfortunately, I don't thing tha= t would work with a fuel line. ;-)

Charlie

On 5/4/2021 2:49 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:

On 5/4/2021 2:08 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:

Does the pressure increase have a solid 'step= 9; at the exact staging point, or is it just rising in that area?=

Yes, solid steps.
One second sampling intervals.

How much increase on the gauge? Where is the referen= ce for fuel pressure measurement?

18 to 64 psi, about 36 average.
At end of secondary fuel rail.



The pressure *regulator* should be referenced to MAP (manifold pressure), a= nd will raise absolute fuel pressure as manifold pressure rises. If the gau= ge is referenced to atmosphere (or absolute), it would indicate a rise in p= ressure as the throttle is opened.

The regulator does respond to MAP changes. Originall= y I thought it was too sensitive and the source of the wild swings in fuel = pressure. But there is a high-pressure fuel filter between the regulator an= d the fuel rails. Figured that would dampen any pulses before they reach the regulator but probably not true.
Actually I don't have a dampener in the MAP line to the regulator. Shou= ld probably try that. Since it wasn't an issue when tuning the engine I= forgot about it. The EC3 probably averages MAP samples.

The more I think about it, if there are pressure pulses caused by injectors= opening and closing, the one-second sampling of the fuel pressure sender c= ould be randomly be hitting highs and lows. I really should hook up an O= 9;scope to the pressure sensor to see what the signal from it looks like.

Finn


Charlie

On 5/4/2021 12:44 PM, William Schertz wschertz343@gmail.com wrote:

Finn

No rx-8 injector experience, but if at the staging p= oint, if the EC-2-3 shuts off the primary injectors, and the secondaries ha= ven't opened, fuel out of the manifold decreases, so the pumps would ra= ise the pressure. Are you confident that the controller is reducing the primaries and starting the secondaries at t= he same time?

Bill

=C2=A0

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:07 AM Bobby Hughes BHughes@qnsinc.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Is the fuel pressure really increasing or is= it the EM2/3 reading?=C2=A0 Steve B. has posted good advice for tuning around the staging point with different size injectors. =

=C2=A0

Bobby

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2021 11:46 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Renesis secondary injectors

=C2=A0

I noticed that my indicated fuel consumption appeare= d to be about 50% higher than actual.

So I decided to start calibrating engine monitor fue= l flow.

The first step is to check/adjust fuel flow around t= he staging point (20"Hg) where the secondary injectors open (secondary= injectors are larger than primary injectors on the 4-port Renesis).

I thought I had previously tuned the engine for a sm= ooth transition around the staging point, at least to the point when I didn= 't notice anything when dvancing throttle through the staging point.

However, now doing stationary run ups around the sta= ging point (especially when engine is getting hot) I get the weird phenomen= on of it going very lean when secondary injectors (supposedly) open. Another odd thing is that fuel pressure increase= s markedly.

On the HomebuiltAirplanes.com forum a guy that raced RV-8s for a couple of sea= sons mentioned troubles with the stock Renesis injectors.

Now I'm wondering if I have (intermittently) bad= secondary injectors -- not opening when they should.

However, I'm confused by the rise in fuel pressu= re. Is there a injector failure mode where pressure in intake runners could= push back through the injector into the fuel line?

Note that these are factory-new, maybe 10 to 20 hour= s of total engine run (or attempted run) time.

Another possibility is heated secondary fuel rail. B= ut if there were boiling fuel there the fuel pressure should still drop whe= n secondary injectors open...

I tried to look but didn't find a chart of 87 oc= tane 10% ethanol boiling point vs temperature.

Anybody here had any trouble with stock Renesis inje= ctors? Symptoms? Other ideas?

Finn

RX-8 4-port:
Primary: Denso 195500-4430=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 33.3 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (350cc/m= in)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 13.8 ohm
Secondary: Denso 195500-4460=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 51.4 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (540cc= /min)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 13.8 ohm

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<~WRD000.jpg>

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus s= oftware.
www.avast.com=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Disclaimer<= u>

The information contained in this communica= tion from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are n= ot the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, dis= tribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information = is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.

This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been auto= matically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an innovator in Software as a Service (SaaS) for busin= ess. Providing a safer and more useful place for your human generated data. Sp= ecializing in; Security, archiving and compliance. To find out more Click Here.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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