From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Renesis secondary injectors
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
References: <list-1479249@logan.com>
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Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 15:35:45 -0400
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Not confident about anything at all :)

If I remember Tracy correctly, pulse width of primary injectors are cut 
in half and secondaries turned on for the same amount of time (but 
compensated for size difference -- reduced in this case).

Note that fuel flow is calculated by the EM3 by measuring the pulse 
width of rotor 1 primary injector. When non-staging (primary and 
secondary both on) the EM3 compensates accordingly (it knows when 
staging/non-staging from data sent from EC3). So there is at least one 
second delay where FF is incorrect.

But you are right, flowing less through primaries and perhaps 
secondaries not yet on could increase fuel pressure. Looking at engine 
data on EM3 it seems it's updated every second. So there could be a 
second delay. Maybe that's what I'm seeing. But doesn't explain why it 
goes lean when engine is hot.

Fuel pressure flutuations may be a red herring.

Finn

On 5/4/2021 1:44 PM, William Schertz wschertz343@gmail.com wrote:
> Finn
> No rx-8 injector experience, but if at the staging point, if the 
> EC-2-3 shuts off the primary injectors, and the secondaries haven't 
> opened, fuel out of the manifold decreases, so the pumps would raise 
> the pressure. Are you confident that the controller is reducing the 
> primaries and starting the secondaries at the same time?
> Bill
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:07 AM Bobby Hughes BHughes@qnsinc.net 
> <mailto:BHughes@qnsinc.net> <flyrotary@lancaironline.net 
> <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>> wrote:
>
>     Is the fuel pressure really increasing or is it the EM2/3
>     reading?  Steve B. has posted good advice for tuning around the
>     staging point with different size injectors.
>
>     Bobby
>
>     *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft
>     [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net
>     <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>]
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, May 04, 2021 11:46 AM
>     *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft
>     *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Renesis secondary injectors
>
>     I noticed that my indicated fuel consumption appeared to be about
>     50% higher than actual.
>
>     So I decided to start calibrating engine monitor fuel flow.
>
>     The first step is to check/adjust fuel flow around the staging
>     point (20"Hg) where the secondary injectors open (secondary
>     injectors are larger than primary injectors on the 4-port Renesis).
>
>     I thought I had previously tuned the engine for a smooth
>     transition around the staging point, at least to the point when I
>     didn't notice anything when dvancing throttle through the staging
>     point.
>
>     However, now doing stationary run ups around the staging point
>     (especially when engine is getting hot) I get the weird phenomenon
>     of it going very lean when secondary injectors (supposedly) open.
>     Another odd thing is that fuel pressure/in/creases markedly.
>
>     On the HomebuiltAirplanes.com forum a guy that raced RV-8s for a
>     couple of seasons mentioned troubles with the stock Renesis injectors.
>
>     Now I'm wondering if I have (intermittently) bad secondary
>     injectors -- not opening when they should.
>
>     However, I'm confused by the rise in fuel pressure. Is there a
>     injector failure mode where pressure in intake runners could push
>     back through the injector into the fuel line?
>
>     Note that these are factory-new, maybe 10 to 20 hours of total
>     engine run (or attempted run) time.
>
>     Another possibility is heated secondary fuel rail. But if there
>     were boiling fuel there the fuel pressure should still drop when
>     secondary injectors open...
>
>     I tried to look but didn't find a chart of 87 octane 10% ethanol
>     boiling point vs temperature.
>
>     Anybody here had any trouble with stock Renesis injectors?
>     Symptoms? Other ideas?
>
>     Finn
>
>     RX-8 4-port:
>     Primary: Denso 195500-4430    33.3 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (350cc/min)   
>     13.8 ohm
>     Secondary: Denso 195500-4460    51.4 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi
>     (540cc/min)    13.8 ohm
>
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Not confident about anything at all :)<br>
      <br>
      If I remember Tracy correctly, pulse width of primary injectors
      are cut in half and secondaries turned on for the same amount of
      time (but compensated for size difference -- reduced in this
      case).<br>
      <br>
      Note that fuel flow is calculated by the EM3 by measuring the
      pulse width of rotor 1 primary injector. When non-staging (primary
      and secondary both on) the EM3 compensates accordingly (it knows
      when staging/non-staging from data sent from EC3). So there is at
      least one second delay where FF is incorrect.<br>
      <br>
      But you are right, flowing less through primaries and perhaps
      secondaries not yet on could increase fuel pressure. Looking at
      engine data on EM3 it seems it's updated every second. So there
      could be a second delay. Maybe that's what I'm seeing. But doesn't
      explain why it goes lean when engine is hot.<br>
      <br>
      Fuel pressure flutuations may be a red herring.<br>
      <br>
      Finn<br>
      <br>
      On 5/4/2021 1:44 PM, William Schertz <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wschertz343@gmail.com">wschertz343@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:list-1479249@logan.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div dir="ltr">Finn
        <div>No rx-8 injector experience, but if at the staging point,
          if the EC-2-3 shuts off the primary injectors, and the
          secondaries haven't opened, fuel out of the manifold
          decreases, so the pumps would raise the pressure. Are you
          confident that the controller is reducing the primaries and
          starting the secondaries at the same time?</div>
        <div>Bill</div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:07
          AM Bobby Hughes <a href="mailto:BHughes@qnsinc.net"
            moz-do-not-send="true">BHughes@qnsinc.net</a> &lt;<a
            href="mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net"
            moz-do-not-send="true">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Is
                  the fuel pressure really increasing or is it the EM2/3
                  reading?  Steve B. has posted good advice for tuning
                  around the staging point with different size
                  injectors. </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Bobby</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
              <div>
                <div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
                  solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                        style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:windowtext">
                      Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:<a
                        href="mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>]
                      <br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 04, 2021 11:46 AM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> Rotary motors in aircraft<br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> [FlyRotary] Renesis secondary
                      injectors</span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              <p>I noticed that my indicated fuel consumption appeared
                to be about 50% higher than actual.</p>
              <p>So I decided to start calibrating engine monitor fuel
                flow.</p>
              <p>The first step is to check/adjust fuel flow around the
                staging point (20"Hg) where the secondary injectors open
                (secondary injectors are larger than primary injectors
                on the 4-port Renesis).</p>
              <p>I thought I had previously tuned the engine for a
                smooth transition around the staging point, at least to
                the point when I didn't notice anything when dvancing
                throttle through the staging point.</p>
              <p>However, now doing stationary run ups around the
                staging point (especially when engine is getting hot) I
                get the weird phenomenon of it going very lean when
                secondary injectors (supposedly) open. Another odd thing
                is that fuel pressure<i> in</i>creases markedly.</p>
              <p>On the HomebuiltAirplanes.com forum a guy that raced
                RV-8s for a couple of seasons mentioned troubles with
                the stock Renesis injectors.</p>
              <p>Now I'm wondering if I have (intermittently) bad
                secondary injectors -- not opening when they should.</p>
              <p>However, I'm confused by the rise in fuel pressure. Is
                there a injector failure mode where pressure in intake
                runners could push back through the injector into the
                fuel line?</p>
              <p>Note that these are factory-new, maybe 10 to 20 hours
                of total engine run (or attempted run) time.</p>
              <p>Another possibility is heated secondary fuel rail. But
                if there were boiling fuel there the fuel pressure
                should still drop when secondary injectors open...</p>
              <p>I tried to look but didn't find a chart of 87 octane
                10% ethanol boiling point vs temperature.</p>
              <p>Anybody here had any trouble with stock Renesis
                injectors? Symptoms? Other ideas?</p>
              <p>Finn</p>
              <p>RX-8 4-port:<br>
                Primary: Denso 195500-4430    33.3 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi
                (350cc/min)    13.8 ohm <br>
                Secondary: Denso 195500-4460    51.4 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi
                (540cc/min)    13.8 ohm</p>
              <p> </p>
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