X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) From: "William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f171.google.com ([209.85.208.171] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 864769 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 18:14:30 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.171; envelope-from=wrjjrs@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f171.google.com with SMTP id 23so4247950ljv.7 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8Fd+jU2M8Ddhq0r6NyPHjMiUgBG0VM/gfSu8evdT6/E=; b=BdjUrY9IjnVkZInuTHBuXxcUjUAw+JckLmVjSgANeNj3kIG7lKGNT0qWxzjcTNc8P3 WOE8eYa12Cy8PUqstchX1RfVYMvmEBpw2LPladfVOCPG4dVljmt/JcIgGxv6Vkym5N2a YeOsA2zDiq5GTFqgAPW9Ilcr+iw4qoWnT0bukCCaxgeoqz1kZ7SgkoGw/ef73L0aYIC2 8WsKTpX4y38k/8BcyBCtjZkknNJFwvXHQ2NLdq6tr9k2Suf5XJAllG+BgfXchYjIE54m fnxgpC63LoZvauMx0xeGzfVpCwZn0acARk9rXmFK3xuxzSksPYTjlH8DTWA/v5cDbugm EBOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=8Fd+jU2M8Ddhq0r6NyPHjMiUgBG0VM/gfSu8evdT6/E=; b=rq1f/8BO9ikNocB4JDjYax14jERX0s2tFPKOyhbqy5+ZIxqWsgZq5ii9stxtyvAN64 brC3cChLrtoLM1t9whTPYNVczVx5Hcg8/3YKIl1U3Tg3NO3eyMF3qtV/VtI+PNiENaqn uHa/GVY9IyrHe9cByKN0+1kwG1b+4Ys6eSoWDShOTW9JoivoFBfJnQhkYW0h6YwUU/Eh cWPBlXH2QWVLOclRileoruyLeH5PHiHl612vd6bHMh51P3YoMdBA1nPrjfRjmprvr/xv CrybJWgRVpyA3H2iojfNCgMfVyd7BJgy8TQ+DEEFg09vHQJkNDGDbtFnxTh+lnRnG83H AYtw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532tLzLivPtnnZ3mG1QbKnln3QarpgR+Cbv+bVVG+xFEiKN7Ewbc VcXvLUcRdDQP5HV9YNteDtEzZ2sctoETSsewqnrbdVUtcB8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwEmm1qoFkc3FcK0q7EaoOGMgfu63lkHE3c0XVdFw1RgC1mUpP/7aeI1oV1hNF1Qr2Ct5y+NpJv0XRSl1GQFd0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:1101:: with SMTP id d1mr2004937ljo.150.1603318452436; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 15:14:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 15:14:03 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d1c1b005b235aa54" --000000000000d1c1b005b235aa54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that everyone should remember that ALL of our typical engines have overlap. Pistons included. This is always mentioned as the reason rotaries won't idle. Not true! The highest output engines have always been P-port in and out. I am showing you video of a 200 HP rotary idling at 1100 engine RPM solidly. Something else to consider is if you are making an aircraft rotary you don't need to make huge intakes like a Le Mans racer. The 200 HP engine I mentioned has 1 5/8 I.D. intakes. 41mm round intakes at the standard position perpendicular to Trochoid face. Overlap itself isn't the biggest culprit. if you have radical port timing or huge intakes designed for 10,000 RPM of course it's not going to idle! Here is a link to check out. excellent reduction drive as well. I have looked at reproducing that but it would be very difficult to break even in the current market. Here is the link to the engine running on the aircraft dyno. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DEfreUJt-Fsk&t=3D62s Note that the max RPM was 6,500. this is a very quiet muffler. With a flowmaster duplicated in stainless it was a bit louder and made 200 HP! battery ignition, aircraft fuel injection. nothing fancy! KISS design rules= . Bill Jepson On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 10:06 AM Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: > Charlie : Seems to me you got us all. There is no shortage of unanswered > questions in this rotary world. > Hope i am on the right track with a 13 B p- ported with 44 mm intakes to > reduce the overlapp between the intake and exaust ports.Just want the > intake flow a little bit better than standard ports on the intakes. > My side sump is almost complete will post some photos soon. > Hope to develope 180 Hp on =E2=80=9Cfull power=E2=80=9D or thats my goal. > > Regards > Sent from my iPhone > Le Roux Breytenbach > > On 21 Oct 2020, at 17:54, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > Conventional measurement technique is to measure water temp leaving the > engine, and oil temp after the oil cooler (before entering the engine). > What's the temp look like after your oil cooler? > > Almost all water cooled conversions seem to have more cooling drag > *initially*, because we're all having to experiment with getting cooling > optimized in an airframe not designed for liquid cooling, in contrast wit= h > the 'cookie cutter' installations of traditional air cooled engines. What > airframe? > > 10-12 kts isn't a huge difference. Are all your fairings in place? RVs > typically see 12-15 kts increase when the wheel pants & leg fairings are > installed. > > What RPM and what MAP (is it wide open throttle) to get the 168 kts? > > Is the 18 gph figure leaned to best power, or full rich? If running fairl= y > rich (.55-.6 lbs/hp/hr), that would be somewhere between 180 & 200 HP, > assuming everything is optimized; intake, exhaust, timing, even mixture > between rotors, etc etc. Intake runner length? Exhaust configuration? > Supposedly, the Renesis is insensitive to exhaust tuning (due to zero > intake/exhaust overlap), but still fairly sensitive to back pressure. Did > P-porting the intake create any intake/exhaust overlap, which could affec= t > tuning? > > Charlie > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 8:23 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Steve, what are your temps? In Florida, with outside being 90-95F I can >> taxi all day long without overheating. On takeoff, I have to throttle ba= ck >> after 1 to 1.5mins because my oil pan gets to 230F. Coolant out is aroun= d >> 215F. >> >> Cruising around at ~3000ft, 80F OAT @ 2250prop rpm. Oil settles to >> 215-220F, coolant 185-190F. Maybe 140kts. >> >> My plane is slower and eats more gas to a comparable lycoming. Usually >> they cruise at 180kts @ 8gph. I'm sitting at 168kts @ 18gph (not verifie= d >> yet). Haven't been past 5000ft yet to see the performance numbers. I kno= w >> my cowl needs a good redesign, intake probably doesn't flow the best, oi= l >> cooler is too small, prop may be off. But so far, not too impressed with >> the engine. I highly doubt the P-Port intake RX8 is anywhere near 250hp >> like Paul said. >> >> I'll have pics/videos soon (this weekend) of plane and flight data, so >> you'll see what I'm dealing with. >> >> >> - Matt Boiteau >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 2:38 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Lyn >>> >>> So PP=E2=80=99ing a Renesis 4 port provide significantly better breathi= ng. >>> Is there a porting option for the Renesis 4 port that yields significan= t >>> improvement, say 10% hp or is there too little material to play with? >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Steve Izett >>> >>> >>> >>> > On 21 Oct 2020, at 9:35 am, lehanover lehanover@aol.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> > >>> > A Periphery ported side exhaust is better than both intake and exhaus= t >>> being periphery ported. Neither the intake or exhaust port ever closes.= So, >>> there is exhaust dilution of the intake flow based on the amount of exh= aust >>> back pressure. Up to the point where RPMs do not allow enough time for = this >>> to occur.Then it sort of steps up on the cam and the power comes on as = if >>> by an electric switch. The full periphery engine tunes like a dirt bike= . >>> The intake length and diameter and the exhaust length and diameter tune >>> like a trombone. >>> > A periphery ported 12-A can do 310 HP at 10,000 RPM. A 13-B can do 33= 0 >>> HP at 10,000 RPM. We have to be under 105Db at 50 feet at full throttle= . >>> The Renesis has zero overlap. But it had a Micky Mouse intake with 2 >>> different tuned lengths. >>> > There was a builder at Sun&Fun years ago who had a RX-7 transmission >>> for speed reduction. It worked fine. Later he had the idle too slow and= it >>> shook the gears of of 2nd gear. I forgot his name but he died of cancer= . >>> > LEH >>> > In a message dated 10/20/2020 5:35:49 PM Atlantic Standard Time, >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >>> > >>> > Mat, >>> > >>> > It will only idle hot at that rpm. (1800). Cold it is >>> 2000 plus. Yes P ported and the advance seems to vary little from 20 >>> degrees. Running Fueltech ECU. And running cheapest gas. >>> > >>> > Neil. >>> > >>> > >>> > From: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 1:38 AM >>> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning >>> > >>> > >>> > Steve =3D Using Megasquirt for ECU. How is your flight testing going? >>> > >>> > Jeff =3D I meant prop rpm. Using Neil's PSRU, which is 3.17. I just >>> bumped up my idle to around 800prop (2500engine). I forgot to add, I am >>> P-Port which causes a need for higher idle. >>> > >>> > Lynn =3D Idle can be that high? Usually I see rotary idle around the >>> 10-18 range, but that is for a car. Little different with a prop on 100= % of >>> the time. >>> > >>> > >>> > Neil =3D That is a nice idle. I forget, are you P-Port? What is your >>> timing at? >>> > >>> > Dave =3D 35 all time? Doesn't that seem really high for rotary. Pump >>> gas? Lynn was saying 24 degrees for 87 octane. >>> > >>> > >>> > - Matt Boiteau >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:11 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.co= m >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi there Matt and all >>> > >>> > What computer is controlling your fuel and spark Matt? >>> > >>> > Ive left the timing of the EC2 on the Renesis 4 port at Tracy=E2=80= =99s >>> default and haven=E2=80=99t changed it but was wanting to do some exper= imenting. >>> > I take it that the timing setting in the EC2/3 will vary the whole >>> timing curve over the rpm/load envelope. >>> > >>> > Cheers >>> > >>> > Steve Izett >>> > Renesis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1-C >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > On 19 Oct 2020, at 10:21 am, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Split table. >>> > > >>> > > - Matt Boiteau >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 10:17 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > What AFR and timing are people running for idle, taxi, takeoff, >>> climb, cruise, descent? >>> > > >>> > > idle =3D 11afr, 20 timing >>> > > I seem to have to be around 11afr for it to stay alive. Still tryin= g >>> to get it to idle around 600rpm, maybe bump it up to 700rpm to be smoot= her >>> without dieing and shaking apart. >>> > > >>> > > taxi / takeoff / climb =3D 13.2afr, 28 timing >>> > > >>> > > cruise - not sure aft, 28 timing >>> > > >>> > > decent - not sure aft, 32 timing >>> > > Not sure what the plane likes. I tried 14afr, but the MAP really >>> get's low and engine shakes. Guessing it should be more rich? >>> > > >>> > > I attached the timing table and split rotary table (second email). >>> Not sure how to tune timing, I just want safe values for now. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > - Matt Boiteau >>> > > -- >>> > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> > > Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> > > -- >>> > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> > > Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> > Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-5914793738148243110_m_2551104784900753453_m_7814684856654791107_m_37= 91624158487726697_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > --000000000000d1c1b005b235aa54 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0I think that ever= yone should remember that ALL of our typical engines have overlap.=20 Pistons included. This=C2=A0is always mentioned as the reason rotaries won't idle.=C2=A0 = Not true! The highest output engines have always been P-port in and out. I = am showing=C2=A0you video of a 200 HP rotary idling at 1100 engine RPM soli= dly.=C2=A0
=C2=A0Something else to consider is if you are making = an aircraft rotary you don't need to make huge intakes like a Le Mans r= acer. The 200 HP engine I mentioned has 1 5/8 I.D. intakes. 41mm round inta= kes at the standard position perpendicular to Trochoid face.
Over= lap itself isn't the biggest culprit. if you have radical port timing o= r huge intakes designed for 10,000 RPM of course it's not going to idle= ! Here is a link to check out. excellent reduction drive as well. I have l= ooked at reproducing that but it would be very difficult to break even in t= he current market. Here is the link to the engine=C2=A0running on the aircr= aft dyno.
Note that the max RPM was 6,500. this is a very quiet= muffler. With a flowmaster duplicated in stainless it was a bit louder and= made 200 HP!=20 battery ignition, aircraft fuel=C2=A0injection. nothing fancy! KISS design = rules.
Bill Jepson

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 10:06 AM Le = Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=
Charlie : Seems to me you got us all. There is no shortage of unans= wered questions in this rotary world.
Hope i am on the right trac= k with a 13 B p- ported with 44 mm intakes to reduce the overlapp between t= he intake and exaust ports.Just want the intake flow a little bit better th= an standard ports on the intakes.
My side sump is almost complete= will post some photos soon.
Hope to develope 180 Hp on =E2=80=9C= full power=E2=80=9D or thats my goal.

Regards
Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach=C2=A0

On 21 Oct 2020, at = 17:54, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=
=EF=BB=BF
Conventional m= easurement technique is to measure water temp leaving the engine, and oil t= emp after the oil cooler (before entering the engine). What's the temp = look like after your oil cooler?

Almost all water cooled conversions seem= to have more cooling drag *initially*, because we're all having to exp= eriment with getting cooling optimized in an airframe not designed for liqu= id cooling, in contrast with the 'cookie cutter' installations of t= raditional air cooled engines. What airframe? =20

10-12 kts isn't a huge difference.=C2=A0 Are all your fairings in pl= ace? RVs typically see 12-15 kts increase when the wheel pants & leg fairin= gs are installed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=
What RPM and what MAP (is it wide open= throttle) to get the 168 kts?=C2=A0
Is the 18 gph figure leaned to best = power, or full rich? If running fairly rich (.55-.6 lbs/hp/hr), that would = be somewhere between 180 & 200 HP, assuming everything is optimized; in= take, exhaust, timing, even mixture between rotors, etc etc. Intake runner = length? Exhaust configuration? Supposedly, the Renesis is insensitive to ex= haust tuning (due to zero intake/exhaust overlap), but still fairly sensiti= ve to back pressure. Did P-porting the intake create any intake/exhaust ove= rlap, which could affect tuning?

Charlie





On Wed, Oct 2= 1, 2020 at 8:23 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wro= te:
Steve, what are your temps? In Florida, with outside being 90-95F I ca= n taxi all day long without overheating. On takeoff, I have to throttle bac= k after 1 to 1.5mins because my oil pan gets to 230F. Coolant out is around= 215F.

Cruising=C2=A0around at ~3000ft, 80F OAT=C2=A0@ 2250prop rpm= . Oil settles to 215-220F, coolant 185-190F. Maybe 140kts.

My plane = is slower and eats more gas to a comparable lycoming. Usually they cruise a= t 180kts=C2=A0@ 8gph. I'm sitting at 168kts=C2=A0@ 18gph (not verified = yet). Haven't been past 5000ft yet to see the performance numbers. I kn= ow my cowl needs a good redesign, intake probably doesn't flow the best= , oil cooler is too small,=C2=A0prop may be off. But so far, not too impres= sed with the engine. I highly doubt the P-Port intake RX8 is anywhere near = 250hp like Paul said.

I'll have pics/videos soon (this weekend) = of plane and flight data, so you'll see what I'm dealing with.
<= br>
- Matt Boiteau


On Wed, Oct 21, 20= 20 at 2:38 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wro= te:
Thanks Lyn
So PP=E2=80=99ing a Renesis 4 port provide significantly better breathing. =
Is there a porting option for the Renesis 4 port that yields significant im= provement, say 10% hp or is there too little material to play with?

Cheers

Steve Izett



> On 21 Oct 2020, at 9:35 am, lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:
>
> A Periphery ported side exhaust is better than both intake and exhaust= being periphery ported. Neither the intake or exhaust port ever closes. So= , there is exhaust dilution of the intake flow based on the amount of exhau= st back pressure. Up to the point where RPMs do not allow enough time for t= his to occur.Then it sort of steps up on the cam and the power comes on as = if by an electric switch. The full periphery engine tunes like a dirt bike.= =C2=A0 The intake length and diameter and the exhaust length and diameter t= une like a trombone.
> A periphery ported 12-A can do 310 HP at 10,000 RPM. A 13-B can do 330= HP at 10,000 RPM. We have to be under 105Db at 50 feet at full throttle. T= he Renesis has zero overlap. But it had a Micky Mouse intake with 2 differe= nt tuned lengths.
> There was a builder at Sun&Fun years ago who had a RX-7 transmissi= on for speed reduction. It worked fine. Later he had the idle too slow and = it shook the gears of of 2nd gear. I forgot his name but he died of cancer.=
> LEH
> In a message dated 10/20/2020 5:35:49 PM Atlantic Standard Time, flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net writes:
>=C2=A0
> Mat,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It will only idle hot a= t that rpm. (1800).=C2=A0 Cold it is 2000 plus.=C2=A0 Yes P ported and the = advance seems to vary little from 20 degrees.=C2=A0 Running Fueltech ECU. A= nd running cheapest gas.
>
> Neil.
>
>=C2=A0
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 1:38 AM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning
>
>=C2=A0
> Steve =3D Using Megasquirt for ECU. How is your flight testing going?<= br> >
> Jeff =3D I meant prop rpm. Using Neil's PSRU, which is 3.17. I jus= t bumped up my idle to around 800prop (2500engine). I forgot to add, I am P= -Port which causes a need for higher idle.
>
> Lynn =3D Idle can be that high? Usually I see rotary idle around the 1= 0-18 range, but that is for a car. Little different with a prop on 100% of = the time.
>
>=C2=A0
> Neil =3D That is a nice idle. I forget, are you P-Port? What is your t= iming at?
>
> Dave =3D 35 all time? Doesn't that seem really high for rotary. Pu= mp gas? Lynn was saying 24 degrees for 87 octane.
>
>
> - Matt Boiteau
>
>=C2=A0
>=C2=A0
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:11 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net> wrote:
>
> Hi there Matt and all
>
> What computer is controlling your fuel and spark Matt?
>
> Ive left the timing of the EC2 on the Renesis 4 port at Tracy=E2=80=99= s default and haven=E2=80=99t changed it but was wanting to do some experim= enting.
> I take it that the timing setting in the EC2/3 will vary the whole tim= ing curve over the rpm/load envelope.
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve Izett
> Renesis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1-C
>
>
>
>
> > On 19 Oct 2020, at 10:21 am, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:
> >
> > Split table.
> >
> > - Matt Boiteau
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 10:17 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net> wrote:
> >
> > What AFR and timing are people running for idle, taxi, takeoff, c= limb, cruise, descent?
> >
> > idle =3D 11afr, 20 timing
> > I seem to have to be around 11afr for it to stay alive. Still try= ing to get it to idle around 600rpm, maybe bump it up to 700rpm to be smoot= her without dieing and shaking apart.
> >
> > taxi / takeoff / climb =3D 13.2afr, 28 timing
> >
> > cruise - not sure aft, 28 timing
> >
> > decent - not sure aft, 32 timing
> > Not sure what the plane likes. I tried 14afr, but the MAP really = get's low and engine shakes. Guessing it should be more rich?
> >
> > I attached the timing table and split rotary table (second email)= . Not sure how to tune timing, I just want safe values for now.
> >
> >
> > - Matt Boiteau
> > --
> > Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0h= ttp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> > <split.JPG>--
> > Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0h= ttp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>
> --
> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http:/= /mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>


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