X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=EuKsUhUA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=5H4+LPRLXvCUfBOFgc0hlQ==:117 a=55z/sxGcUIPVrBMYBb4HRw==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=_Z_nqdSeG58A:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=DAwyPP_o2Byb1YXLmDAA:9 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=RG6hcgD4AAAA:8 a=fR6g6WPwAAAA:8 a=xu-_hLK6iF5CjQ-BG5oA:9 a=wB3F8PH1utciHjHA:21 a=-cty-cD61C_xjLNd:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=Pp8BsFLfaaRT0iy-HSYA:9 a=Nm8vfiu0WK-SiPex:21 a=Kcyq7mo__mcpFC0d:21 a=6cTOXn-Pv7MzLyMY:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=N6I4LDFSjv0JWTRmzZqO:22 a=pVye9tYEF4-vSOQs7cMh:22 From: " 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pf1-f177.google.com ([209.85.210.177] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 671074 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 20:10:07 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.177; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-pf1-f177.google.com with SMTP id m8so1856601pfh.3 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 17:10:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language; bh=P6CDW6A8zrUkjJT7C+h6MRvX0ZxgppvQ0KLeSggtvg4=; b=hK6jIV4KFVOG+nW9sSxX9skrAZgGQ902WYfiruQ5/FvH93rzWpRLcQzGwpIZUAz/fM PRmOtIjgUOcOIUHY/bp98kacre8YEqm3uEZbXNL2/J8NhqefgL18HnuGGGCU553g6Ufk MTLioXaS1eLIeKj2TNOfyE6mQMYP1hDR0mq7WLxwbQNuQjLc3BNYac093ZBCA3+/cGd6 x3AvN1VtRZhHHCrpfRuq7bs1qN34afcCBZQnLAFfPzdNBxwLgcWXWXRQYe3aqtPMmto1 pClERkjVL1CLAxKujCvC6ad3+vEtC6EvKgP/bAnZcbFK9AAC9YBH2ACrgSNzXjXNWJDK HqxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=P6CDW6A8zrUkjJT7C+h6MRvX0ZxgppvQ0KLeSggtvg4=; b=ZiT9nhFYQtg8mC7W8B4UitykZBYJSaaOg7PrLmr/sOuAjCqXN955bVKQvgBIZfp4vj A0O12KvR0ilxXZ2DzEUYHeI/Soq0yV1N+LaXA79lYYeP5qjjp0dOgVAXFYL9qhnGFVjt n0a6NaQq2IyWBLrupFiddPW5ryK/PbHAD4l+1HtINX2/5+L+cednPVA17Bv7uUkAE8xS s5ALEpkBQAK5H01ShDRHT+oLlZBg/92RupaKvGbzQfTCeN/T/1KMDvEAeFfzg6jZMypn e5iAJCcrDwYKy9h5Ld7rows24nJBIFQ8lnj/lo/ZpWq4esRDIk7NFd/BK5qAayNQbBNY p18A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530AlkfebUtR73xesRKJwlWULuEf4tUfpodSR5CXWrKX1DXNhbCC m4B4RFIxDR/Sgd3G6dLfoVhoALLdRAc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzNPTKr1usOkZZh9NLhpNVIF4L8HY6ACd6D4+VYx1pqLeYc2cEnIgpVeq73Oe5tXJLj7pUZAA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9048:: with SMTP id n8mr4314451pfo.183.1598054990111; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 17:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from UserPC ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h9sm3942024pfq.18.2020.08.21.17.09.47 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Aug 2020 17:09:48 -0700 (PDT) To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:09:44 +1000 Message-ID: <000d01d67818$8c324020$a496c060$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01D6786C.5DE41C80" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIZAPkzjsqnkdWRNneaUheZdymnuqi+LgiA Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01D6786C.5DE41C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James, I believe you are looking at something like the TTC = engine with the turbo they used. What was it,- 500HP or there about? I = thought it would have blown apart, but still exists. Someone will have = the details =E2=80=93 possibly young Paul Lamar? Best, Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 9:53 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 Thanks to Dave and Bobby for the comments. All the info helps me put = this puzzle together.=F0=9F=A4=94 =20 On Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 12:21 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com = > wrote: James, =20 In a perfect world I would have considered something like that. I have = no experience with Borg Warner - except that I did buy one on e-bay = once. The large A/R and other specs you mention seem about right to me, = but you should really dig up a compressor map and plot some points to be = sure. The BW I bought was big and I could not find the proper clamps to = hold the exhaust onto the turbo. In short, the installation would have = taken a lot longer than the modified stock turbo, but it would have been = more optimal. Good Luck. =20 Dave Leonard =20 On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 6:04 AM James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com = > wrote: I'll address this to Dave L and Todd B. But...anyone out there with experience with the situation can share. I = have a recommendation of the Borg Warner EFR 9280 with the oil and water = cooled ceramic bearing Aluminum CHRA with a T04 twin scroll 1.45 AR to = keep the pulses separate till they meet the fancy turbine wheel. This = should allow the custom PPort to breathe. The goal is to have 400 hp = available at 8400 rpm driving a 3.1 reduction gear to get 2700 rpm at = the C/S prop. I want to get off the water/ground fast and land slow!!! = Cruise will be probably around 6-7 thousand rpm depending on the = efficiency / gas bill. Getting airborne fast is important the rest will = fall into place. Advise or discussion appreciated. James Whitehurst =20 On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com = > wrote: Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it = in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred = to. I couldn't access the info? Any help or guidance would be = appreciated. Thanks james Whitehurst. =20 On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: Todd, Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my = turbo. Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade. Saving freight = from the US if successful. Called precision turbos. Seem to be a US = firm with a local branch. Hopefully I can get what I am after. =20 Neil =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 Hi Todd, I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to = change out the actuator. I have 2 turbos from BNR. In one I removed = the wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole wide open. = That gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects me from my lead = fist. Its perfect for my everyday flying. The other one uses the stock = actuator and will give me 45" at 10k density altitude. I call it my = race turbo. Nothing like raging around at Vne. Nothing like the gas = bill either.=20 =20 It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart. Bummer they dont do the = Stage 4 anymore. Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu. = Hopefull they still port the wastegate a little. =20 We definitely have to get together for a hockey game sometime. =20 Dave Leonard =20 On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com = > wrote: I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machine = the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to = save on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. So = this means I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see = what I can do about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty soon = I'll have enough spare parts to build another airplane. As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I was not = asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, but = again this list has proven its value as random info not even directed at = me has made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could = give up the ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where = there are none. I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart = controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But I = may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I = receive it. Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had recently = removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective installation due to = space constraints and didn't think it was really doing much for me. I = now think it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an = opportunity with some space freed up to do a better install. Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace the = big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first thing = it told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the = engine, behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an = easy thing to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my = primary alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have = quite a bit of free space in which to mount the intercooler, however it = will probably require some modification. This is all yet to be = determined.... Todd Bartrim =20 =20 On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com = > wrote: Hi Dave; Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the = wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring? I told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem to = know what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type = rather than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with = a 14psi spring. I also want the lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart = electronic boost controller which can give higher pre-programed = pressures at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure signal = to the actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than what the = spring pressure is. One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my = engine was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression = 9.4:1 rotors. Fot that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my = boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pressure. When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi without = detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subject the = engine to regularly. =20 Thanks, Todd =20 =20 =20 On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com = , > wrote: Hi Dave; I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was = looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should = have then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me. But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm = thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you = do, if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well = go for the "stage 4". The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make room for = a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I could = source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even know = enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find the = finish line without a significant investment in time. So for the low = price of $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced = that paying the $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal = with international shipping.=20 So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me over = the edge and call him back with my visa#. If he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be past = this point after a few beers watching playoff hockey. =20 Todd (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that = there is less fans than my beer league games) =20 =20 =20 On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com = , > wrote: Todd, Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking. = Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t = want the job. Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way. = Makes the $100 cheap. Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way = down the path of fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start = again. Done that too many times before. Thanks, Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 Hi Neil; I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said = it was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe = later this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he = could just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. = That's kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship = mine down to him. Then I'm only paying shipping one way. So for you that would make even more sense.=20 Todd Bartrim =20 =20 On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: Dave and all, Finally great advice that I cannot get = anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line = goes dead. The oil cut off is great as well for I have personal = experience with a turbo failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not = believe the amount of oil that can fit into an exhaust! That took more = time to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallons of it. =20 Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freight = both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will = be $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will = be another $300 at least. =20 Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 Hi Dave; What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? =20 Todd Bartrim =20 =20 On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com = > wrote: Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. =20 Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its = proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be = giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that = perhaps you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you = are not going to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target = and a plan to achieve it. =20 =20 The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b = it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short = bursts. I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turbo = to see what I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo = lasted for about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the = impeller was running over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 = hours. It probably only lasted that long because most of the time I was = not running full power. The turbo imploded on my first long cross = country. I was almost home and decided to let it loose a little. I was = running about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing = that. =20 My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a = shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my = installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the = exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you = can get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long = as you need. =20 Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are = realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to = fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste = various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the = internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. = Try to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying = away from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. = You will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and = readily available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong = in an aircraft. =20 Best, Dave Leonard =20 On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: Group, I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I = settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as = to not get into=20 any overspeed problems..........FWIW =20 http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 =20 =20 Kelly troyer =20 On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: Dave, Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the = upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock = Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 James, I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also have = options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the = level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about = Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or = TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. =20 Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate = various parameters in selecting a turbo. =20 Dave Leonard =20 On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: James, 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. = Think they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the = world trying to get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not = exist if you talk to drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. = Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other = will need bearings. There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight = only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much = to go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler = that may fit. Best, Neil. =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and = size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience = is appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from = aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage = for turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst =20 =20 On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com = > wrote: Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it = in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred = to. I couldn't access the info? Any help or guidance would be = appreciated. Thanks james Whitehurst. =20 On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: Todd, Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my = turbo. Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade. Saving freight = from the US if successful. Called precision turbos. Seem to be a US = firm with a local branch. Hopefully I can get what I am after. =20 Neil =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 Hi Todd, I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to = change out the actuator. I have 2 turbos from BNR. In one I removed = the wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole wide open. = That gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects me from my lead = fist. Its perfect for my everyday flying. The other one uses the stock = actuator and will give me 45" at 10k density altitude. I call it my = race turbo. Nothing like raging around at Vne. Nothing like the gas = bill either.=20 =20 It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart. Bummer they dont do the = Stage 4 anymore. Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu. = Hopefull they still port the wastegate a little. =20 We definitely have to get together for a hockey game sometime. =20 Dave Leonard =20 On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com = > wrote: I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machine = the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to = save on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. So = this means I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see = what I can do about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty soon = I'll have enough spare parts to build another airplane. As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I was not = asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, but = again this list has proven its value as random info not even directed at = me has made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could = give up the ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where = there are none. I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart = controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But I = may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I = receive it. Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had recently = removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective installation due to = space constraints and didn't think it was really doing much for me. I = now think it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an = opportunity with some space freed up to do a better install. Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace the = big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first thing = it told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the = engine, behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an = easy thing to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my = primary alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have = quite a bit of free space in which to mount the intercooler, however it = will probably require some modification. This is all yet to be = determined.... Todd Bartrim =20 =20 On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com = > wrote: Hi Dave; Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the = wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring? I told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem to = know what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type = rather than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with = a 14psi spring. I also want the lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart = electronic boost controller which can give higher pre-programed = pressures at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure signal = to the actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than what the = spring pressure is. One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my = engine was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression = 9.4:1 rotors. Fot that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my = boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pressure. When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi without = detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subject the = engine to regularly. =20 Thanks, Todd =20 =20 =20 On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com = , > wrote: Hi Dave; I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was = looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should = have then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me. But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm = thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you = do, if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well = go for the "stage 4". The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make room for = a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I could = source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even know = enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find the = finish line without a significant investment in time. So for the low = price of $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced = that paying the $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal = with international shipping.=20 So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me over = the edge and call him back with my visa#. If he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be past = this point after a few beers watching playoff hockey. =20 Todd (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that = there is less fans than my beer league games) =20 =20 =20 On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com = , > wrote: Todd, Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking. = Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t = want the job. Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way. = Makes the $100 cheap. Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way = down the path of fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start = again. Done that too many times before. Thanks, Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 Hi Neil; I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said = it was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe = later this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he = could just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. = That's kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship = mine down to him. Then I'm only paying shipping one way. So for you that would make even more sense.=20 Todd Bartrim =20 =20 On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: Dave and all, Finally great advice that I cannot get = anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line = goes dead. The oil cut off is great as well for I have personal = experience with a turbo failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not = believe the amount of oil that can fit into an exhaust! That took more = time to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallons of it. =20 Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freight = both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will = be $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will = be another $300 at least. =20 Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 Hi Dave; What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? =20 Todd Bartrim =20 =20 On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com = > wrote: Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. =20 Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its = proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be = giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that = perhaps you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you = are not going to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target = and a plan to achieve it. =20 =20 The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b = it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short = bursts. I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turbo = to see what I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo = lasted for about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the = impeller was running over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 = hours. It probably only lasted that long because most of the time I was = not running full power. The turbo imploded on my first long cross = country. I was almost home and decided to let it loose a little. I was = running about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing = that. =20 My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a = shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my = installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the = exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you = can get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long = as you need. =20 Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are = realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to = fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste = various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the = internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. = Try to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying = away from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. = You will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and = readily available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong = in an aircraft. =20 Best, Dave Leonard =20 On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: Group, I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I = settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as = to not get into=20 any overspeed problems..........FWIW =20 http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 =20 =20 Kelly troyer =20 On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: Dave, Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the = upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock = Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 James, I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also have = options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the = level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about = Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or = TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. =20 Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate = various parameters in selecting a turbo. =20 Dave Leonard =20 On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: James, 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. = Think they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the = world trying to get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not = exist if you talk to drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. = Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other = will need bearings. There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight = only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much = to go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler = that may fit. Best, Neil. =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and = size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience = is appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from = aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage = for turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01D6786C.5DE41C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

James,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I believe you are looking at something = like the TTC engine with the turbo they used.=C2=A0 What was it,- 500HP = or there about?=C2=A0 I thought it would have blown apart, but still = exists.=C2=A0 Someone will have the details =E2=80=93 possibly young = Paul Lamar?

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, August = 22, 2020 9:53 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 

Thanks = to Dave and Bobby for the comments. All the info helps me put this = puzzle together.🤔

 

On = Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 12:21 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

 

I'll address this to Dave L and Todd = B.

But...anyone out there with = experience with the situation can share. I have a recommendation of the = Borg Warner EFR 9280 with the oil and water cooled ceramic bearing  = Aluminum CHRA with a T04 twin scroll 1.45 AR to keep the pulses separate = till they meet the fancy turbine wheel. This should allow the custom = PPort to breathe. The goal is to have 400 hp available at 8400 rpm = driving a 3.1 reduction gear to get 2700 rpm at the C/S prop. I want to = get off the water/ground fast and land slow!!! Cruise will be probably = around 6-7 thousand rpm depending on the efficiency / gas bill. Getting = airborne fast is important the rest will fall into place. Advise or = discussion appreciated. James Whitehurst

 

On = Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Dave = L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it in = the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred to. I = couldn't  access the info? Any help or guidance would be = appreciated. Thanks james Whitehurst.

 

On = Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Todd,

          =      Have finally located a turbo shop that can = upgrade my turbo.  Have sent it to them for inspection / = upgrade.  Saving freight from the US if successful.  Called = precision turbos.  Seem to be a US firm with a local branch.  = Hopefully I can get what I am after.

 

Neil

 

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

Hi = Todd,  I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to = change out the actuator.  I have 2 turbos from BNR.  In one I = removed the wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole wide = open.  That gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects = me from my lead fist.  Its perfect for my everyday flying.  = The other one uses the stock actuator and will give me 45" at 10k = density altitude.  I call it my race turbo.   Nothing like = raging around at Vne.  Nothing like the gas bill = either. 

 <= /o:p>

It will be = easy enough to use your TurboSmart.  Bummer they dont do the Stage = 4 anymore.  Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for = 0.1amu.  Hopefull they still port the wastegate a = little.

 <= /o:p>

We = definitely have to get together for a hockey game = sometime.

 <= /o:p>

Dave = Leonard

 <= /o:p>

On Wed, Aug = 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

I ended up = ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machine the = exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to save = on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. So this = means I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see = what I can do about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty = soon I'll have enough spare parts to build another = airplane.

  As = they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I = was not asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, = but again this list has proven its value as random info not even = directed at me has made me aware that at any given time my poor little = turbo could give up the ghost and leave me looking for a place to put = down where there are none.

  I = asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart = controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But I = may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I = receive it.

  =  Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had = recently removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective = installation due to space constraints and didn't think it was = really doing much for me. I now think it was doing more than I thought, = but I now have an opportunity with some space freed up to do a better = install.

  =  Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace = the big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first = thing it told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of = the engine, behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was = an easy thing to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside = my primary alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have = quite a bit of free space in which to mount the intercooler, = however it will probably require some modification. This is all yet = to be determined....


Todd = Bartrim

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Wed, Aug = 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Hi = Dave;

  = Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the = wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the = spring?

  I = told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem to know = what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type rather = than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with a = 14psi spring.

I also want = the lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart electronic = boost controller which can give higher pre-programed pressures at the = touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure signal to the actuator. = But it can't give any pressure lower than what the spring pressure = is.

  One = of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my engine was = not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9.4:1 = rotors.

  Fot = that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my boost to = 6psi, which is my current spring pressure.

  When = my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi without = detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subject the = engine to regularly.

 <= /o:p>

Thanks, = Todd

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Tue., = Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Hi = Dave;

  =  I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was = looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I = should have then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for = me.

  But = other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm thinking = that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you do, if = I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well go for = the "stage 4".

  =  The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to = make room for a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder = if I could source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't = even know enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find = the finish line without a significant investment in time. So for the low = price of $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced = that paying the $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal = with international shipping. 

So I guess = I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me over the edge = and call him back with my visa#.

  If = he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be = past this point after a few beers watching playoff = hockey.

 <= /o:p>

 Todd

  =    (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is = that there is less fans than my beer league = games)

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Tue., = Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Todd,

          =       Thanks for that as was exactly what I was = thinking.  Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or = don=E2=80=99t want the job.  Freight listed to the US and back can = be $300 each way.  Makes the $100 cheap.  Will contact them, = and see what eventuates as way down the path of fitting the stock turbo, = really do not want to start again.  Done that too many times = before.

Thanks,  Neil.

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

Hi = Neil;

  I = talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said it = was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe later = this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he could = just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That's = kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine down = to him. Then I'm only paying shipping one = way.

  =  So for you that would make even more sense. 

Todd = Bartrim

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Tue, Aug = 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Dave and all,

          =             &= nbsp;       Finally great advice that I = cannot get anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the = phone line goes dead.  The oil cut off is great as well for I have = personal experience with  a turbo failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you = would not believe the amount of oil that can fit into an exhaust!  = That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallons of = it. 

  Will see what I can source here in OZ  as = to a turbo , as the freight both ways to the US  is = murderous.  Happy with the mod cost which will be $1300 Oz = dollars.  Still a cheap turbo.  Freight I am guessing will be = another $300 at least.

 

Neil.

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

Hi = Dave;

  What = did you use for a shut-off valve for your = oil?

 <= /o:p>

Todd = Bartrim

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Kelly, you = are right.  I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post = above.

 <= /o:p>

Mark, its = not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its proper = operating environment for the conditions you are going to be = giving.  You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it = seem that perhaps you dont have a specific target in = mind.  Thats fine, but you are not going to land much above 180hp = unless you have a specific target and a plan to achieve = it.  

 <= /o:p>

The stock = hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine.  It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran = with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short = bursts.  I did what you are thinking about doing.  I ran the = stock turbo to see what I would get.  I was making a little over = 200hp and the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.  = Looking at its turbo map, the impeller was running over 100k = RPM.  It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours.  It probably = only lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full = power.  The turbo imploded on my first long cross country.  I = was almost home and decided to let it loose a little.  I was = running about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude.  It lasted about = 30 min doing that.

 <= /o:p>

My advice, = if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-off valve on = the oil feed line to the turbo.  I now have one in my = installation.  When the turbo goes it will be = hemorrhaging oil into the exhaust.  Without a shut-off valve, = you will run out of oil before you can get very far.  With the = valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you = need.

 <= /o:p>

Play around = with that spreadsheet I sent you.  Make up numbers that are = realistic for how much boost at what altitude you = realistically want to fly, then find a turbo to fit those = parameters.  You can cut and paste various turbo maps onto the = spreadsheet.  They are available on the internet but most of the = relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet.  Try to keep the = turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away from the = 'surge' line.  Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible.  You = will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and = readily available.  You will also see that the stock T3 does not = belong in an aircraft.

 <= /o:p>

Best,

Dave = Leonard

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Group,<= /o:p>

  =  I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I = settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine = housing so as to not get into 

any = overspeed problems..........FWIW

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

Kelly = troyer

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Dave,

          =       Just how much extra Hp do you think you = got withy the upgraded Turbo?  I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP = from the stock Hitachi.  Am I off with the fairys having this = expectation?

Neil.

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

James,<= /o:p>

I had my = stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.  They also have = options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the = level 4 upgrade.  Makes a nice tight fit.  I had a big = discussion about Turbo maps that you can find in the archives.  I = settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea = level.

 <= /o:p>

Attached is = a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate various = parameters in selecting a turbo.

 <= /o:p>

Dave = Leonard

 <= /o:p>

On Sun, Aug = 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

James,

  2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 = Todd  Bartrim and Dave leonnard.  Think they have the standard = RX7 Hitachi turbo.  Just been around the world trying to get an = affordable  turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk = to drag racers etc.,  Quotes between $4500 and $6500.  Bought = 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will = need bearings.

          =       There was an offer of one in south Africa = for freight only.  Would be a bargain.  Just hooking mine up = now, but as usual much to go that I have not factored as usual.  = Finally found an intercooler that may fit.

Best,  Neil.

 

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

Does anyone = out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and size) for a = 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience is = appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from = aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage = for turbos. Thanks, James = Whitehurst


 <= /o:p>

 

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Dave = L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it in = the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred to. I = couldn't  access the info? Any help or guidance would be = appreciated. Thanks james Whitehurst.

 

On = Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Todd,

          =      Have finally located a turbo shop that can = upgrade my turbo.  Have sent it to them for inspection / = upgrade.  Saving freight from the US if successful.  Called = precision turbos.  Seem to be a US firm with a local branch.  = Hopefully I can get what I am after.

 

Neil

 

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

Hi = Todd,  I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to = change out the actuator.  I have 2 turbos from BNR.  In one I = removed the wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole wide = open.  That gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects = me from my lead fist.  Its perfect for my everyday flying.  = The other one uses the stock actuator and will give me 45" at 10k = density altitude.  I call it my race turbo.   Nothing like = raging around at Vne.  Nothing like the gas bill = either. 

 <= /o:p>

It will be = easy enough to use your TurboSmart.  Bummer they dont do the Stage = 4 anymore.  Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for = 0.1amu.  Hopefull they still port the wastegate a = little.

 <= /o:p>

We = definitely have to get together for a hockey game = sometime.

 <= /o:p>

Dave = Leonard

 <= /o:p>

On Wed, Aug = 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

I ended up = ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machine the = exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to save = on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. So this = means I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see = what I can do about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty = soon I'll have enough spare parts to build another = airplane.

  As = they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I = was not asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, = but again this list has proven its value as random info not even = directed at me has made me aware that at any given time my poor little = turbo could give up the ghost and leave me looking for a place to put = down where there are none.

  I = asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart = controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But I = may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I = receive it.

  =  Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had = recently removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective = installation due to space constraints and didn't think it was = really doing much for me. I now think it was doing more than I thought, = but I now have an opportunity with some space freed up to do a better = install.

  =  Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace = the big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first = thing it told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of = the engine, behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was = an easy thing to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside = my primary alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have = quite a bit of free space in which to mount the intercooler, = however it will probably require some modification. This is all yet = to be determined....


Todd = Bartrim

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Wed, Aug = 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Hi = Dave;

  = Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the = wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the = spring?

  I = told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem to know = what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type rather = than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with a = 14psi spring.

I also want = the lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart electronic = boost controller which can give higher pre-programed pressures at the = touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure signal to the actuator. = But it can't give any pressure lower than what the spring pressure = is.

  One = of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my engine was = not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9.4:1 = rotors.

  Fot = that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my boost to = 6psi, which is my current spring pressure.

  When = my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi without = detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subject the = engine to regularly.

 <= /o:p>

Thanks, = Todd

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Tue., = Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Hi = Dave;

  =  I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was = looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I = should have then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for = me.

  But = other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm thinking = that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you do, if = I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well go for = the "stage 4".

  =  The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to = make room for a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder = if I could source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't = even know enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find = the finish line without a significant investment in time. So for the low = price of $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced = that paying the $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal = with international shipping. 

So I guess = I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me over the edge = and call him back with my visa#.

  If = he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be = past this point after a few beers watching playoff = hockey.

 <= /o:p>

 Todd

  =    (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is = that there is less fans than my beer league = games)

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Tue., = Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Todd,

          =       Thanks for that as was exactly what I was = thinking.  Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or = don=E2=80=99t want the job.  Freight listed to the US and back can = be $300 each way.  Makes the $100 cheap.  Will contact them, = and see what eventuates as way down the path of fitting the stock turbo, = really do not want to start again.  Done that too many times = before.

Thanks,  Neil.

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

Hi = Neil;

  I = talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said it = was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe later = this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he could = just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That's = kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine down = to him. Then I'm only paying shipping one = way.

  =  So for you that would make even more sense. 

Todd = Bartrim

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Tue, Aug = 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Dave and all,

          =             &= nbsp;       Finally great advice that I = cannot get anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the = phone line goes dead.  The oil cut off is great as well for I have = personal experience with  a turbo failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you = would not believe the amount of oil that can fit into an exhaust!  = That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallons of = it. 

  Will see what I can source here in OZ  as = to a turbo , as the freight both ways to the US  is = murderous.  Happy with the mod cost which will be $1300 Oz = dollars.  Still a cheap turbo.  Freight I am guessing will be = another $300 at least.

 

Neil.

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

Hi = Dave;

  What = did you use for a shut-off valve for your = oil?

 <= /o:p>

Todd = Bartrim

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Kelly, you = are right.  I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post = above.

 <= /o:p>

Mark, its = not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its proper = operating environment for the conditions you are going to be = giving.  You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it = seem that perhaps you dont have a specific target in = mind.  Thats fine, but you are not going to land much above 180hp = unless you have a specific target and a plan to achieve = it.  

 <= /o:p>

The stock = hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine.  It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran = with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short = bursts.  I did what you are thinking about doing.  I ran the = stock turbo to see what I would get.  I was making a little over = 200hp and the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.  = Looking at its turbo map, the impeller was running over 100k = RPM.  It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours.  It probably = only lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full = power.  The turbo imploded on my first long cross country.  I = was almost home and decided to let it loose a little.  I was = running about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude.  It lasted about = 30 min doing that.

 <= /o:p>

My advice, = if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-off valve on = the oil feed line to the turbo.  I now have one in my = installation.  When the turbo goes it will be = hemorrhaging oil into the exhaust.  Without a shut-off valve, = you will run out of oil before you can get very far.  With the = valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you = need.

 <= /o:p>

Play around = with that spreadsheet I sent you.  Make up numbers that are = realistic for how much boost at what altitude you = realistically want to fly, then find a turbo to fit those = parameters.  You can cut and paste various turbo maps onto the = spreadsheet.  They are available on the internet but most of the = relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet.  Try to keep the = turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away from the = 'surge' line.  Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible.  You = will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and = readily available.  You will also see that the stock T3 does not = belong in an aircraft.

 <= /o:p>

Best,

Dave = Leonard

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Group,<= /o:p>

  =  I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I = settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine = housing so as to not get into 

any = overspeed problems..........FWIW

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

Kelly = troyer

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Dave,

          =       Just how much extra Hp do you think you = got withy the upgraded Turbo?  I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP = from the stock Hitachi.  Am I off with the fairys having this = expectation?

Neil.

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

James,<= /o:p>

I had my = stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.  They also have = options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the = level 4 upgrade.  Makes a nice tight fit.  I had a big = discussion about Turbo maps that you can find in the archives.  I = settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea = level.

 <= /o:p>

Attached is = a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate various = parameters in selecting a turbo.

 <= /o:p>

Dave = Leonard

 <= /o:p>

On Sun, Aug = 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

James,

  2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 = Todd  Bartrim and Dave leonnard.  Think they have the standard = RX7 Hitachi turbo.  Just been around the world trying to get an = affordable  turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk = to drag racers etc.,  Quotes between $4500 and $6500.  Bought = 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will = need bearings.

          =       There was an offer of one in south Africa = for freight only.  Would be a bargain.  Just hooking mine up = now, but as usual much to go that I have not factored as usual.  = Finally found an intercooler that may fit.

Best,  Neil.

 

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

Does anyone = out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and size) for a = 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience is = appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from = aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage = for turbos. Thanks, James = Whitehurst


 <= /o:p>

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