X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=EuKsUhUA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=SXbm7E1YzIvgVQVM9OljyQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=DxjPifHaizMA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=RG6hcgD4AAAA:8 a=fR6g6WPwAAAA:8 a=4ANp1psnhEsJWuTd2dUA:9 a=PKrQ6HM4jD0GzszQ:21 a=JlTuf9CIYvFFhu4M:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=u2hsSqVucl3aJsL5NEMA:9 a=155n5lu2tWLqN6oY:21 a=d9L8jpHKbBe67xI8:21 a=DwJJ9mhq18cdjchu:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=N6I4LDFSjv0JWTRmzZqO:22 a=pVye9tYEF4-vSOQs7cMh:22 From: "James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com" Received: from mail-wm1-f52.google.com ([209.85.128.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 670998 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:55:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.128.52; envelope-from=flyboyusvi@gmail.com Received: by mail-wm1-f52.google.com with SMTP id t14so3310523wmi.3 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:55:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DSJr7lJ1MIX78SDNo9YdtWmKTlD1pPQ8LV+DzCO+ezU=; b=L5FIu8agx6092unvuqP1ZMnrGFWt3bHnpn8aF+huisGgFFEKEj0IvbEGFSFqF+QQbu t0TXzMgiZhQmkNUjkKiLfu3683l/YlGwTkEOu9O/NwxiIN7EaqaSuhc4e/kJp6qYS6KN Hb/NO6mYPB2Eq6jidF1SNaixDxaiUXzrMaJa9dJ+aaanuAQPYFzkQEqdFhpRP5I7Offu cPLVvw8F8ik1JY/1Fku2eSm3xTmrA9tzN962HHJmKuYOqXF1orQVvZq0Bv6q/CbgQK6h yi1cUWjHpAY2Td3tY8/TQgnmh8cENKgl15uMZhWg27Cw8WKG3L4mbnHxOFcSzxncMWkk IlQg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=DSJr7lJ1MIX78SDNo9YdtWmKTlD1pPQ8LV+DzCO+ezU=; b=QhMB3S9gNuKs9QjA42tioZEya/hHCQgkp+QQ9F1hWM5sJj7NiKhh0LIit5oI5FH7U8 LoUy0LUehhi179LCbNcZ2OKKu3SzHaNjjA9DJ0aHhLpg1jFI0gTRFF3AUpLYE5vKbOs+ JxdsrNxWA1AB4Gr5hrmyutuU78KBBAFoTfpkP3KZKMHCtxmvInwx7buK51JA2KO5klLK Pc9cQ5HKE+SwpL3FD2MybPzWwUfETCPnM8v339WBq/56iteP7APaB/uOc91rlBRC3nL3 YJj2+9ip9vnh0Qaf0pSW2qDZtkQg1UC+Gi1zeZ85dbOFlGWNZhQUmjjcH8+Zylhjc/AG iLFA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53229K+eAVVlzHtli2yjcIdzzX6Rr/vObBZ6ulEy71gozZ9yVWjZ hxD8b4SMasLadEByAe0m1e9jCTREiw+ipy/WN7WEn88QYkcQSw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyV54IXEQxgQFjrmRHA1djLKAL6/wGQ7cqMSmRvqyLA2hRQ3KeWIDEixFxO4rG3/QfJRh5RVCNo6hxQxgpI6/M= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:cf08:: with SMTP id l8mr5006689wmg.183.1598054117883; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:55:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:53:17 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000007427e05ad6bf89a" --00000000000007427e05ad6bf89a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to Dave and Bobby for the comments. All the info helps me put this puzzle together.=F0=9F=A4=94 On Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 12:21 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > James, > > In a perfect world I would have considered something like that. I have n= o > experience with Borg Warner - except that I did buy one on e-bay once. T= he > large A/R and other specs you mention seem about right to me, but you > should really dig up a compressor map and plot some points to be sure. T= he > BW I bought was big and I could not find the proper clamps to hold the > exhaust onto the turbo. In short, the installation would have taken a lo= t > longer than the modified stock turbo, but it would have been more optimal= . > Good Luck. > > Dave Leonard > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 6:04 AM James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> I'll address this to Dave L and Todd B. >> But...anyone out there with experience with the situation can share. I >> have a recommendation of the Borg Warner EFR 9280 with the oil and water >> cooled ceramic bearing Aluminum CHRA with a T04 twin scroll 1.45 AR to >> keep the pulses separate till they meet the fancy turbine wheel. This >> should allow the custom PPort to breathe. The goal is to have 400 hp >> available at 8400 rpm driving a 3.1 reduction gear to get 2700 rpm at th= e >> C/S prop. I want to get off the water/ground fast and land slow!!! Cruis= e >> will be probably around 6-7 thousand rpm depending on the efficiency / g= as >> bill. Getting airborne fast is important the rest will fall into place. >> Advise or discussion appreciated. James Whitehurst >> >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use i= t >>> in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred t= o. I >>> couldn't access the info? Any help or guidance would be appreciated. >>> Thanks james Whitehurst. >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Todd, >>>> >>>> Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my >>>> turbo. Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade. Saving freight= from >>>> the US if successful. Called precision turbos. Seem to be a US firm = with >>>> a local branch. Hopefully I can get what I am after. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Neil >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Todd, I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to >>>> change out the actuator. I have 2 turbos from BNR. In one I removed = the >>>> wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole wide open. That >>>> gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects me from my lead fist.= Its >>>> perfect for my everyday flying. The other one uses the stock actuator= and >>>> will give me 45" at 10k density altitude. I call it my race turbo. >>>> Nothing like raging around at Vne. Nothing like the gas bill either. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart. Bummer they dont do th= e >>>> Stage 4 anymore. Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu. >>>> Hopefull they still port the wastegate a little. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We definitely have to get together for a hockey game sometime. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave Leonard >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer >>>> machine the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core ch= arge >>>> to save on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. = So >>>> this means I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see >>>> what I can do about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty so= on >>>> I'll have enough spare parts to build another airplane. >>>> >>>> As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I was >>>> not asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, bu= t >>>> again this list has proven its value as random info not even directed = at me >>>> has made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could gi= ve up >>>> the ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where there are= none. >>>> >>>> I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart >>>> controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But= I >>>> may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I >>>> receive it. >>>> >>>> Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had recentl= y >>>> removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective installation due t= o >>>> space constraints and didn't think it was really doing much for me. I = now >>>> think it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an opportunity = with >>>> some space freed up to do a better install. >>>> >>>> Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace >>>> the big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first = thing >>>> it told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the >>>> engine, behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an= easy >>>> thing to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my pr= imary >>>> alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite a b= it of >>>> free space in which to mount the intercooler, however it will probably >>>> require some modification. This is all yet to be determined.... >>>> >>>> >>>> Todd Bartrim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Dave; >>>> >>>> Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the >>>> wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring? >>>> >>>> I told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem t= o >>>> know what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type rat= her >>>> than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with a 14= psi >>>> spring. >>>> >>>> I also want the lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart >>>> electronic boost controller which can give higher pre-programed pressu= res >>>> at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure signal to the >>>> actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than what the spring >>>> pressure is. >>>> >>>> One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my >>>> engine was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression = 9.4:1 >>>> rotors. >>>> >>>> Fot that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my >>>> boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pressure. >>>> >>>> When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi withou= t >>>> detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subject the en= gine >>>> to regularly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, Todd >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Dave; >>>> >>>> I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was >>>> looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should = have >>>> then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me. >>>> >>>> But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm >>>> thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that yo= u do, >>>> if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well g= o for >>>> the "stage 4". >>>> >>>> The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make room >>>> for a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I co= uld >>>> source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even know >>>> enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find the fin= ish >>>> line without a significant investment in time. So for the low price of >>>> $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced that payin= g the >>>> $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal with internati= onal >>>> shipping. >>>> >>>> So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me >>>> over the edge and call him back with my visa#. >>>> >>>> If he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be pas= t >>>> this point after a few beers watching playoff hockey. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Todd >>>> >>>> (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that >>>> there is less fans than my beer league games) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Todd, >>>> >>>> Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking. >>>> Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t w= ant the job. >>>> Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way. Makes the $10= 0 >>>> cheap. Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way down the pat= h of >>>> fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start again. Done that= too >>>> many times before. >>>> >>>> Thanks, Neil. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Neil; >>>> >>>> I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said >>>> it was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe la= ter >>>> this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he coul= d >>>> just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That'= s >>>> kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine do= wn to >>>> him. Then I'm only paying shipping one way. >>>> >>>> So for you that would make even more sense. >>>> >>>> Todd Bartrim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dave and all, >>>> >>>> Finally great advice that I cannot get >>>> anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line= goes dead. The oil >>>> cut off is great as well for I have personal experience with a turbo >>>> failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil t= hat can fit >>>> into an exhaust! That took more time to clean than replacing the turb= o-- >>>> all 5 gallons of it. >>>> >>>> Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freigh= t >>>> both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will= be >>>> $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will be >>>> another $300 at least. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Neil. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Dave; >>>> >>>> What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Todd Bartrim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its >>>> proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be >>>> giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perh= aps >>>> you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not = going >>>> to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan = to >>>> achieve it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b >>>> it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short >>>> bursts. I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock tur= bo to >>>> see what I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo >>>> lasted for about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impel= ler >>>> was running over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. = It >>>> probably only lasted that long because most of the time I was not runn= ing >>>> full power. The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was >>>> almost home and decided to let it loose a little. I was running about= 30" >>>> MAP at 17.5k altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a >>>> shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in m= y >>>> installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into th= e >>>> exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you= can >>>> get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as = you >>>> need. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that ar= e >>>> realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want t= o >>>> fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste >>>> various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the >>>> internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. = Try >>>> to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying awa= y >>>> from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You= will >>>> find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readil= y >>>> available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an >>>> aircraft. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Dave Leonard >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Group, >>>> >>>> I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I >>>> settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so = as to >>>> not get into >>>> >>>> any overspeed problems..........FWIW >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kelly troyer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dave, >>>> >>>> Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the >>>> upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock >>>> Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? >>>> >>>> Neil. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> James, >>>> >>>> I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also >>>> have options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 >>>> for the level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discuss= ion >>>> about Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO= 4-H >>>> or TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate >>>> various parameters in selecting a turbo. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave Leonard >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> James, >>>> >>>> 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. = Think >>>> they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world >>>> trying to get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exist= if >>>> you talk to drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bought= 2 >>>> hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will n= eed >>>> bearings. >>>> >>>> There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight >>>> only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual muc= h to >>>> go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler th= at >>>> may fit. >>>> >>>> Best, Neil. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and >>>> size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experienc= e is >>>> appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from >>>> aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage = for >>>> turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use i= t >>> in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred t= o. I >>> couldn't access the info? Any help or guidance would be appreciated. >>> Thanks james Whitehurst. >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Todd, >>>> >>>> Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my >>>> turbo. Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade. Saving freight= from >>>> the US if successful. Called precision turbos. Seem to be a US firm = with >>>> a local branch. Hopefully I can get what I am after. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Neil >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Todd, I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to >>>> change out the actuator. I have 2 turbos from BNR. In one I removed = the >>>> wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole wide open. That >>>> gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects me from my lead fist.= Its >>>> perfect for my everyday flying. The other one uses the stock actuator= and >>>> will give me 45" at 10k density altitude. I call it my race turbo. >>>> Nothing like raging around at Vne. Nothing like the gas bill either. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart. Bummer they dont do th= e >>>> Stage 4 anymore. Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu. >>>> Hopefull they still port the wastegate a little. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We definitely have to get together for a hockey game sometime. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave Leonard >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer >>>> machine the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core ch= arge >>>> to save on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. = So >>>> this means I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see >>>> what I can do about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty so= on >>>> I'll have enough spare parts to build another airplane. >>>> >>>> As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I was >>>> not asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, bu= t >>>> again this list has proven its value as random info not even directed = at me >>>> has made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could gi= ve up >>>> the ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where there are= none. >>>> >>>> I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart >>>> controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But= I >>>> may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I >>>> receive it. >>>> >>>> Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had recentl= y >>>> removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective installation due t= o >>>> space constraints and didn't think it was really doing much for me. I = now >>>> think it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an opportunity = with >>>> some space freed up to do a better install. >>>> >>>> Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace >>>> the big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first = thing >>>> it told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the >>>> engine, behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an= easy >>>> thing to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my pr= imary >>>> alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite a b= it of >>>> free space in which to mount the intercooler, however it will probably >>>> require some modification. This is all yet to be determined.... >>>> >>>> >>>> Todd Bartrim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Dave; >>>> >>>> Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the >>>> wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring? >>>> >>>> I told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem t= o >>>> know what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type rat= her >>>> than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with a 14= psi >>>> spring. >>>> >>>> I also want the lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart >>>> electronic boost controller which can give higher pre-programed pressu= res >>>> at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure signal to the >>>> actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than what the spring >>>> pressure is. >>>> >>>> One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my >>>> engine was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression = 9.4:1 >>>> rotors. >>>> >>>> Fot that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my >>>> boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pressure. >>>> >>>> When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi withou= t >>>> detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subject the en= gine >>>> to regularly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, Todd >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Dave; >>>> >>>> I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was >>>> looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should = have >>>> then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me. >>>> >>>> But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm >>>> thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that yo= u do, >>>> if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well g= o for >>>> the "stage 4". >>>> >>>> The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make room >>>> for a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I co= uld >>>> source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even know >>>> enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find the fin= ish >>>> line without a significant investment in time. So for the low price of >>>> $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced that payin= g the >>>> $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal with internati= onal >>>> shipping. >>>> >>>> So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me >>>> over the edge and call him back with my visa#. >>>> >>>> If he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be pas= t >>>> this point after a few beers watching playoff hockey. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Todd >>>> >>>> (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that >>>> there is less fans than my beer league games) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Todd, >>>> >>>> Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking. >>>> Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t w= ant the job. >>>> Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way. Makes the $10= 0 >>>> cheap. Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way down the pat= h of >>>> fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start again. Done that= too >>>> many times before. >>>> >>>> Thanks, Neil. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Neil; >>>> >>>> I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said >>>> it was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe la= ter >>>> this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he coul= d >>>> just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That'= s >>>> kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine do= wn to >>>> him. Then I'm only paying shipping one way. >>>> >>>> So for you that would make even more sense. >>>> >>>> Todd Bartrim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dave and all, >>>> >>>> Finally great advice that I cannot get >>>> anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line= goes dead. The oil >>>> cut off is great as well for I have personal experience with a turbo >>>> failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil t= hat can fit >>>> into an exhaust! That took more time to clean than replacing the turb= o-- >>>> all 5 gallons of it. >>>> >>>> Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freigh= t >>>> both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will= be >>>> $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will be >>>> another $300 at least. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Neil. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Dave; >>>> >>>> What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Todd Bartrim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its >>>> proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be >>>> giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perh= aps >>>> you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not = going >>>> to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan = to >>>> achieve it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b >>>> it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short >>>> bursts. I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock tur= bo to >>>> see what I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo >>>> lasted for about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impel= ler >>>> was running over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. = It >>>> probably only lasted that long because most of the time I was not runn= ing >>>> full power. The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was >>>> almost home and decided to let it loose a little. I was running about= 30" >>>> MAP at 17.5k altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a >>>> shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in m= y >>>> installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into th= e >>>> exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you= can >>>> get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as = you >>>> need. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that ar= e >>>> realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want t= o >>>> fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste >>>> various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the >>>> internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. = Try >>>> to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying awa= y >>>> from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You= will >>>> find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readil= y >>>> available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an >>>> aircraft. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Dave Leonard >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Group, >>>> >>>> I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I >>>> settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so = as to >>>> not get into >>>> >>>> any overspeed problems..........FWIW >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kelly troyer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dave, >>>> >>>> Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the >>>> upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock >>>> Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? >>>> >>>> Neil. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> James, >>>> >>>> I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also >>>> have options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 >>>> for the level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discuss= ion >>>> about Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO= 4-H >>>> or TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate >>>> various parameters in selecting a turbo. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave Leonard >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> James, >>>> >>>> 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. = Think >>>> they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world >>>> trying to get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exist= if >>>> you talk to drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bought= 2 >>>> hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will n= eed >>>> bearings. >>>> >>>> There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight >>>> only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual muc= h to >>>> go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler th= at >>>> may fit. >>>> >>>> Best, Neil. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and >>>> size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experienc= e is >>>> appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from >>>> aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage = for >>>> turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --00000000000007427e05ad6bf89a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks to Dave and Bobby for the comments. All the info h= elps me put this puzzle together.=F0=9F=A4=94

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 12:21 Da= vid Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com = <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net> wrote:
James,

In a perfect world I would have consi= dered something like that.=C2=A0 I have no experience with Borg Warner - ex= cept that I did buy one on e-bay once.=C2=A0 The large A/R and other specs = you mention seem about right to me, but you should really dig up a compress= or map and plot some points to be sure.=C2=A0 The BW I bought was big and I= could not find the proper clamps to hold the exhaust onto the turbo.=C2=A0= In short, the installation would have taken a lot longer than the modified= stock turbo, but it would have been more optimal.=C2=A0 Good Luck.

Dave Leonard

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 6:04 AM Jam= es Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net> wrote:
I'll address this to Dave L and Todd B.
But.= ..anyone out there with experience with the situation can share. I have a r= ecommendation of the Borg Warner EFR 9280 with the oil and water cooled cer= amic bearing=C2=A0 Aluminum CHRA with a T04 twin scroll 1.45 AR to keep the= pulses separate till they meet the fancy turbine wheel. This should allow = the custom PPort to breathe. The goal is to have 400 hp available at 8400 r= pm driving a 3.1 reduction gear to get 2700 rpm at the C/S prop. I want to = get off the water/ground fast and land slow!!! Cruise will be probably arou= nd 6-7 thousand rpm depending on the efficiency / gas bill. Getting airborn= e fast is important the rest will fall into place. Advise or discussion app= reciated. James Whitehurst

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst= flyboyusvi@gmail.com <flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net> wrote:
= Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it in= the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred to. I c= ouldn't=C2=A0 access the info? Any help or guidance would be appreciate= d. Thanks james Whitehurst.

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net> wrote:
<= div>

Todd,<= /p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have finally loca= ted a turbo shop that can upgrade my turbo.=C2=A0 Have sent it to them for = inspection / upgrade.=C2=A0 Saving freight from the US if successful.=C2=A0= Called precision turbos.=C2=A0 Seem to be a US firm with a local branch.= =C2=A0 Hopefully I can get what I am after.

=C2=A0

Neil

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:<= /b> Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

I ended up ordering the stag= e 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machine the exhaust housing to make a = stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to save on shipping down there. I'= d rather give it to him than FedEx. So this means I get to keep my old turb= o so maybe in the future I'll see what=C2=A0I can do about sourcing the= parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty soon I'll have enough spare parts t= o build another airplane.

=C2= =A0 As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think = I was not asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about i= t, but again this list has proven its value as random info not even directe= d at me has made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could= give up the ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where there= are none.

=C2=A0 I aske= d him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart controller wi= ll allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But I may just replac= e it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I receive=C2=A0it.<= u>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now I'm= going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had recently removed it as= I didn't feel it was a very effective installation due to space constr= aints=C2=A0and didn't think it was really doing much for me. I now thin= k it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an opportunity with some= space freed up to do a better install.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium= battery to replace the big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on= it, the first thing it told me was that it didn't like being over on t= he hot side of the engine, behind the turbo. So since it is so small and li= ght, it was an easy thing to move over to the other side of the engine, rig= ht beside my primary alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and no= w have quite a bit of free space in which to mount the intercooler, however= =C2=A0it will probably require some modification. This is all yet to be det= ermined....


Todd Bartrim<= u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= /p>

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 Another question for you about your wastegate. Are yo= u using the wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring?=

=C2=A0 I told him I would = rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem to know what I was talk= ing about when I told him it was a piston type rather than a diaphragm and = kept insisting that I'd want to use his with a 14psi spring.<= /u>

I also want the lowest possible sp= ring pressure as I have a TurboSmart electronic boost controller which can = give higher pre-programed pressures at the touch of a button, by venting th= e boost pressure signal to the actuator. But it can't give any pressure= lower than what the spring pressure is.

=C2=A0 One of my considerations for lower max boost pressu= re is that my engine was not originally turbocharged so I have the high com= pression 9.4:1 rotors.

= =C2=A0 Fot that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit= my boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pressure.

=C2=A0 When my original diaphragm actuator = burst, I saw about 16 psi without detonation, and it was fun, but not somet= hing I want to subject the engine to regularly.

=C2=A0

Thanks, Todd

<= /u>=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /p>

=C2=A0

On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really= got what I was looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3&qu= ot; is what I should have then said probably a "stage 1" would be= good for me.

=C2=A0 But= other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm thinking = that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you do, if I= 'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well go= for the "stage 4".

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust h= ousing to make room for a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. = So I wonder if I could source those other items and do this myself. But as = I don't even know enough about my starting point it's not very real= istic to find the finish line without a significant investment in time. So = for the low price of $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also = convinced that paying the $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have t= o deal with international shipping.=C2=A0

So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove = to push me over the edge and call him back with my visa#.

=

=C2=A0 If he had an "add to cart&quo= t; button on his website I think we'd be past this point after a few be= ers watching playoff hockey.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0Todd

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(The = only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that there is less f= ans than my beer league games)

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Todd,<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thank= s for that as was exactly what I was thinking.=C2=A0 Have tried many worksh= ops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t want the job.=C2=A0 Freight = listed to the US and back can be $300 each way.=C2=A0 Makes the $100 cheap.= =C2=A0 Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way down the path of f= itting the stock turbo, really do not want to start again.=C2=A0 Done that = too many times before.

Thanks,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary m= otors in aircraft <flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM=
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRota= ry] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Neil;=

=C2=A0 I talked to BNR today on = the phone about my needs and wants. He said it was about a 3 week turnaroun= d time on the turbo, so I said maybe later this fall. So he suggested that = for a $100 dollar core charge, he could just get one there and modify it fo= r me and I can keep this one. That's kinda a no-brainer, because it wou= ld cost me that much to ship mine down to him. Then I'm only paying shi= pping one way.

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0So for you that would make even more sense.=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

<= /div>

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dave and all,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Finally gre= at advice that I cannot get anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2= =80=9D and the phone line goes dead.=C2=A0 The oil cut off is great as well= for I have personal experience with =C2=A0a turbo failure in a truck =E2= =80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil that can fit into an exhaust= !=C2=A0 That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallo= ns of it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0Will see what I can source here in OZ =C2=A0as to a = turbo , as the freight both ways to the US=C2=A0 is murderous.=C2=A0 Happy = with the mod cost which will be $1300 Oz dollars.=C2=A0 Still a cheap turbo= .=C2=A0 Freight I am guessing will be another $300 at least.<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, = August 4, 2020 4:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
<= b>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 Wh= at did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil?

=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3,= 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonar= d@gmail.com <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net> wrote:

Kelly, = you are right.=C2=A0 I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above.<= u>

=C2=A0

Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping = the turbo in its proper operating environment for the conditions you are go= ing to be giving.=C2=A0 You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, b= ut it seem that perhaps you dont=C2=A0have a specific=C2=A0target in mind.= =C2=A0 Thats fine, but you are not going to land much above 180hp unless yo= u have a specific target and a plan to achieve it.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine.=C2=A0 = It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - an= d only for short bursts.=C2=A0 I did what you are thinking about doing.=C2= =A0 I ran the stock turbo to see what I would get.=C2=A0 I was making a lit= tle over 200hp and the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.=C2=A0 Lookin= g=C2=A0at its turbo map, the impeller was running over 100k RPM.=C2=A0 It&#= 39;s very surprising it lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0 It probably only lasted that= long because most of the time I was not running full power.=C2=A0 The turb= o imploded on my first long cross country.=C2=A0 I was almost home and deci= ded to let it loose a little.=C2=A0 I was running=C2=A0about 30" MAP a= t 17.5k altitude.=C2=A0 It lasted about 30 min doing that.

=C2=A0

My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to i= nstall a shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo.=C2=A0 I now have= one in my installation.=C2=A0 When the turbo=C2=A0goes it will be hemorrha= ging=C2=A0oil into the exhaust.=C2=A0 Without a shut-off valve, you will ru= n out of oil before you can get very far.=C2=A0 With the valve, you can con= tinue to fly n/a as long as you need.

=C2=A0

Pl= ay around with that spreadsheet I sent you.=C2=A0 Make up numbers that are = realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically=C2=A0want t= o fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters.=C2=A0 You can cut and pas= te various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 They are available on the= internet but most of the relevant=C2=A0ones are there on the spreadsheet.= =C2=A0 Try to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while stayi= ng away from the 'surge' line.=C2=A0 Also, keep the RPM under 60k i= f possible.=C2=A0 You will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a = good choice and readily available.=C2=A0 You will also see that the stock T= 3 does not belong in an aircraft.

=C2=A0

Best,

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
<= div>

Group,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my t= urbo I settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine= housing so as to not get into=C2=A0

any overspeed problems..........FWIW

=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Dave,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just how much extra Hp = do you think you got withy the upgraded Turbo?=C2=A0 I will be happy with 2= 50 to 300 HP from the stock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am I off with the fairys having = this expectation?

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Rotary= motors in aircraft <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 1= 3b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

James,

I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercar= s.=C2=A0 They also have options for the Renisis.=C2=A0http://bnrsupercars.com/=C2=A0Cost is $950 for the level 4 = upgrade.=C2=A0 Makes a nice tight fit.=C2=A0 I had a big discussion about T= urbo maps that you can find in the archives.=C2=A0 I settled on a TO4-H or = TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level.

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate var= ious parameters in selecting a turbo.

=C2=A0

Da= ve Leonard

=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 A= M 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= /u>

James,<= u>

=C2=A0 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd=C2=A0 Bartrim a= nd Dave leonnard.=C2=A0 Think they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo.=C2= =A0 Just been around the world trying to get an affordable=C2=A0 turbo for = my renesis which does not exist if you talk to drag racers etc.,=C2=A0 Quot= es between $4500 and $6500.=C2=A0 Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one = looks set to go while the other will need bearings.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There was an o= ffer of one in south Africa for freight only.=C2=A0 Would be a bargain.=C2= =A0 Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much to go that I have not facto= red as usual.=C2=A0 Finally found an intercooler that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:= Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraf= t <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft=

=C2=A0

Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a t= urbo (brand and size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons o= r experience is appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different= from aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decisi= on stage for turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst

=


=C2=A0<= u>


On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et> wrote:
Dave L, thank= s for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it in the near fut= ure... I tried to look up the discussions you referred to. I couldn't= =C2=A0 access the info? Any help or guidance would be appreciated. Thanks j= ames Whitehurst.

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@g= mail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= > wrote:

Todd,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have finally located a turbo = shop that can upgrade my turbo.=C2=A0 Have sent it to them for inspection /= upgrade.=C2=A0 Saving freight from the US if successful.=C2=A0 Called prec= ision turbos.=C2=A0 Seem to be a US firm with a local branch.=C2=A0 Hopeful= ly I can get what I am after.

=C2=A0

Neil

= =C2=A0

= =C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, Au= gust 7, 2020 3:39 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
S= ubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft<= /p>

=C2=A0

Hi Todd,=C2=A0 I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is eas= y enough to change out the actuator.=C2=A0 I have 2 turbos from BNR.=C2=A0 = In one I removed the wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole = wide open.=C2=A0 That gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects= me from my lead fist.=C2=A0 Its perfect for my everyday flying.=C2=A0 The = other one uses the stock actuator and will give me 45" at 10k density = altitude.=C2=A0 I call it my race turbo. =C2=A0 Nothing like raging around = at Vne.=C2=A0 Nothing like the gas bill either.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart.=C2=A0 Bummer = they dont do the Stage 4 anymore.=C2=A0 Seemed like a lot of work for them = to do for 0.1amu.=C2=A0 Hopefull they still port the wastegate a little.=

=C2=A0

We definitely have to get together for a ho= ckey game sometime.

<= /u>=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo f= rom BNR as they no longer machine the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I = paid the $100 core charge to save on shipping down there. I'd rather gi= ve it to him than FedEx. So this means I get to keep my old turbo so maybe = in the future I'll see what=C2=A0I can do about sourcing the parts to d= o my own upgrade. Pretty soon I'll have enough spare parts to build ano= ther airplane.

=C2=A0 As they = say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I was not as= king much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, but again= this list has proven its value as random info not even directed at me has = made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could give up the= ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where there are none.

=C2=A0 I asked him to put= a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart controller will allow me = to achieve more at the touch of a button. But I may just replace it with my= own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I receive=C2=A0it.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now I'm going to re= think my intercooler installation. I had recently removed it as I didn'= t feel it was a very effective installation due to space constraints=C2=A0a= nd didn't think it was really doing much for me. I now think it was doi= ng more than I thought, but I now have an opportunity with some space freed= up to do a better install.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to = replace the big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the fir= st thing it told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side = of the engine, behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was = an easy thing to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my= primary alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite= a bit of free space in which to mount the intercooler, however=C2=A0it wil= l probably require some modification. This is all yet to be determined....<= u>


Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the wa= stegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring?

=C2=A0 I told him I would rather use my = own wastegate, but he didn't seem to know what I was talking about when= I told him it was a piston type rather than a diaphragm and kept insisting= that I'd want to use his with a 14psi spring.

<= div>

I also want the lowest possible spring pressure = as I have a TurboSmart electronic boost controller which can give higher pr= e-programed pressures at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressu= re signal to the actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than wh= at the spring pressure is.

=C2=A0 One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my = engine was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9.4:1= rotors.

=C2=A0 Fot that= reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my boost to 6p= si, which is my current spring pressure.

=C2=A0 When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw ab= out 16 psi without detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to = subject the engine to regularly.

=C2=A0

Thanks, = Todd

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0= =C2=A0I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I wa= s looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I = should have then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me.<= u>

=C2=A0 But other than th= at I did like what he has to offer. However I'm thinking that even thou= gh I don't feel that I have the demands that you do, if I'm going t= o go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well go for the "= ;stage 4".

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to mak= e room for a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder i= f I could source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't e= ven know enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find= the finish line without a significant investment in time. So for the low p= rice of $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced tha= t paying the $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal with i= nternational shipping.=C2=A0

So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me ov= er the edge and call him back with my visa#.

=C2=A0 If he had an "add to cart" button on = his website I think we'd be past this point after a few beers watching = playoff hockey.

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0Todd=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(The only thing s= tranger than watching hockey in August, is that there is less fans than my = beer league games)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Todd,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks for that a= s was exactly what I was thinking.=C2=A0 Have tried many workshops in OZ an= d either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t want the job.=C2=A0 Freight listed to th= e US and back can be $300 each way.=C2=A0 Makes the $100 cheap.=C2=A0 Will = contact them, and see what eventuates as way down the path of fitting the s= tock turbo, really do not want to start again.=C2=A0 Done that too many tim= es before.

Thanks,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in air= craft <flyrotary@lancaironline= .net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turb= os for 13b's in aircraft

= =C2=A0

Hi Neil;<= /p>

=C2=A0 I talked to BNR today on the phone ab= out my needs and wants. He said it was about a 3 week turnaround time on th= e turbo, so I said maybe later this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 d= ollar core charge, he could just get one there and modify it for me and I c= an keep this one. That's kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me t= hat much to ship mine down to him. Then I'm only paying shipping one wa= y.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0So for y= ou that would make even more sense.=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung= @gmail.com <flyrotary@lanc= aironline.net> wrote:

Dave and all,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Finally great advice th= at I cannot get anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the= phone line goes dead.=C2=A0 The oil cut off is great as well for I have pe= rsonal experience with =C2=A0a turbo failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would= not believe the amount of oil that can fit into an exhaust!=C2=A0 That too= k more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallons of it.=C2=A0 =

=C2=A0= =C2=A0Will see what I can source here in OZ =C2=A0as to a turbo , as the fr= eight both ways to the US=C2=A0 is murderous.=C2=A0 Happy with the mod cost= which will be $1300 Oz dollars.=C2=A0 Still a cheap turbo.=C2=A0 Freight I= am guessing will be another $300 at least.

=C2=A0

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: R= otary motors in aircraft <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:= 42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [Fl= yRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Dav= e;

=C2=A0 What did you use for= a shut-off valve for your oil?

=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM D= avid Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t; wrote:

Kelly, you are right.=C2=A0= I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above.

=C2=A0

Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its pro= per operating environment for the conditions you are going to be giving.=C2= =A0 You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perh= aps you dont=C2=A0have a specific=C2=A0target in mind.=C2=A0 Thats fine, bu= t you are not going to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific tar= get and a plan to achieve it.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine.=C2=A0 It and the 2nd gen 13= b it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short burs= ts.=C2=A0 I did what you are thinking about doing.=C2=A0 I ran the stock tu= rbo to see what I would get.=C2=A0 I was making a little over 200hp and the= turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.=C2=A0 Looking=C2=A0at its turbo ma= p, the impeller was running over 100k RPM.=C2=A0 It's very surprising i= t lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0 It probably only lasted that long because most of = the time I was not running full power.=C2=A0 The turbo imploded on my first= long cross country.=C2=A0 I was almost home and decided to let it loose a = little.=C2=A0 I was running=C2=A0about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude.=C2= =A0 It lasted about 30 min doing that.

=C2=A0

My= advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-off va= lve on the oil feed line to the turbo.=C2=A0 I now have one in my installat= ion.=C2=A0 When the turbo=C2=A0goes it will be hemorrhaging=C2=A0oil into t= he exhaust.=C2=A0 Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before = you can get very far.=C2=A0 With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as = long as you need.

=C2=A0=

Play around with that s= preadsheet I sent you.=C2=A0 Make up numbers that are realistic for how muc= h boost at what altitude you realistically=C2=A0want to fly, then find a tu= rbo to fit those parameters.=C2=A0 You can cut and paste various turbo maps= onto the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 They are available on the internet but most of= the relevant=C2=A0ones are there on the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 Try to keep the= turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away from the '= surge' line.=C2=A0 Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible.=C2=A0 You = will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readil= y available.=C2=A0 You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in a= n aircraft.

=C2=A0

Best,

=

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

= On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer = keltro@gmail.com <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Group,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have = no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I settled on a &quo= t;Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as to not ge= t into=C2=A0

any overspe= ed problems..........FWIW

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kelly troyer

=C2=A0

On Mon= , Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.co= m <flyrotary@lancaironline= .net> wrote:

Dave,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just how much extra Hp do you think you got wit= hy the upgraded Turbo?=C2=A0 I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the st= ock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am I off with the fairys having this expectation?=

Neil.<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: M= onday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <<= a href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer = noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ;
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

James,

I had= my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.=C2=A0 They also have op= tions for the Renisis.=C2=A0http://bnrsuper= cars.com/=C2=A0Cost is $950 for the level 4 upgrade.=C2=A0 Makes a nice= tight fit.=C2=A0 I had a big discussion about Turbo maps that you can find= in the archives.=C2=A0 I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around 3= 50hp at sea level.

=C2= =A0

Attached is a turbo = excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate various parameters in select= ing a turbo.

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

James,

=C2=A0 2 fl= ying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd=C2=A0 Bartrim and Dave leonnard.=C2=A0 T= hink they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo.=C2=A0 Just been around the w= orld trying to get an affordable=C2=A0 turbo for my renesis which does not = exist if you talk to drag racers etc.,=C2=A0 Quotes between $4500 and $6500= .=C2=A0 Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the = other will need bearings.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There was an offer of one in south Afr= ica for freight only.=C2=A0 Would be a bargain.=C2=A0 Just hooking mine up = now, but as usual much to go that I have not factored as usual.=C2=A0 Final= ly found an intercooler that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 20= 20 11:48 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Does= anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and size) for= a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience is appreciat= ed! Auto racers have their needs but are different from aircraft... or so I= 've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage for turbos. Than= ks, James Whitehurst

=


=

=C2=A0

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