X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=EuKsUhUA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=/C9XEX3OPDYFJ3pCBvKjuQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=Fee85h93u3AA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=XCnkGLEC4lIA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=v3WeIx3SvYTXkQw0_hcA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=x4X9VbM41NU7XSVV:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "lehanover lehanover@aol.com" Received: from sonic310-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.135.125] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 666769 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 19:36:30 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.6.135.125; envelope-from=lehanover@aol.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1597966573; bh=d8ZROGpvXFdC+4b5Gm6R1Mr6hca90QMymI8TI0B4FOI=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=Z1th25E78+abRxOgkEzTab2sbDs2uT4f7EQI3jVbFzBzmuZSYDfA/q/t3E6MyDF0lmvw0zlXErVioiDIlc79RRQi61ipeu8rqaOh/I0VMbyO1tKUhBdfqtHz2+UFEOGsfiYOsHnbwhXD0GL7RhymFn51gncut6bR6wXJYJfuEmm4H+Ph3YZbJyXzRM086moAvb4ITAuTdN53NpswvDpMP6XIYHovIvYe7LQMjo6Art/nYNqPIbe8plaQPteGfUTNT233CIFmhXA3XqYMHhQSVMVprIFKxx/Hgw3bB6LBkSx/iDkrrLCygHo33um7MyT4/e3KiKhbA9IsUu+8OJ0Z3Q== X-YMail-OSG: hHJT1xoVM1l1qfJT4gL6hKn16T66n2CrVbOVyIoC2CqtPRig5LHOlU0xF0UUX5H OZHVyhowKkDoT.sHSqeVZ6AI1ui1Q.0g_uH4utVLn4bL89075PFENH.8CWvqUwtJN857F_KTRb0G U_rBIkpClkEo2zvmcMmPxIC8sKuPNhfgFTciRp3YAJgd_5pRGA7g5fPjnNlCNFSTh3AuqyVnINUk kSB7AO0UJ1010sWES4.RkzuQ4vfchpI7HSnu3GAfd7EqPtmjkx6kxz746NhRGiDFZ6uCCrLN2mvi 9.y4bGlgkyOTiB3eSWi988P3wC_OErHJ1EViAJ_WDxCjsal9u_XLTB6wfQuWYrHh_jp6cqtyUvMx L4G5X72h4yKVq85BduTU_dPws1_8VT6W_sOrtcGHVDYRgbHau8XsMxjbVEBYA51NXYXEH4IWNaOD trcBNZRmxGn9JAvFJwBZg49ucwGowI1SdJk.ziYAVTjeVDfi8UFwBY0atxHAg5xWLAXRSCTmjbuK km4dlJLeNkmJV7cgQsGHBzH4zT2cFu9yKxaAoeySl9gzRe5CfiDZz8l_P0Fu144.iLDLPNj8kN.E uU2OCJL1n5JmcZrFcb4AKaMCM6d5_H3ugvlUeL6eJNS6UCD3yxsPMVfFUwvUJRFuhDQCk80E.llp 4CveMgk4aBmMGxUeaqC22c2rRlu40M8qw.DIRCjxyes6ifTXOo69KnRyKePwo5euOJodkCw3lLGk tBPiZaB0zToTep1nvlM7WBz_9_VcURPRexUvWpdrx1uWYbf0l8T1WSCKmyBXTg.klv5Ft4ojxzo3 UhCx0SR8lgoUJOonQXRIsNS718vT6AdODLTKq8d.8NwMN_VoGJyOcJvcaytje5LXHFgDMkxfpPKW 8K28lQg_tGY6nWJPZojPjZ.52boBViIKRRPuBCoyRMh4rOBJMSdC5hNRNzW0Fm6o270Ic1DV19Ok 8ffN7CcktY612z9qFzQOpwa8nA54NUtRahKMfsKLRL37NalaEN5Ziq59g3Dcb7wPsmXb5jEGtLql hecQDUIxPUvTuHNUc7EKcHqz0C0OtpuvEb3oEAmSersEJFC88K6ppTGaFm8oIOxlmrNESiSlU1us nPOC0VGzQKNG.OV5UQthyJs8mELDmaOVk9j21IaqIPBJP_MYBCa58lBwVg_uqoY7Vvlrx3akAkxX 7vTE5QZOFhWw_goA9GmcACUfA.siuZ_YSNrmSL1UX6Cbi9vvRoN719XkrBPAu3qgJQ3T4zShA4BY lum5RwZDWRb802mmEXZCjhK0ocsJSaz2gdP3CmaEEZf74Mzv6N.OWrkZgR7DOGZhREHYWIHDXCqY YH9K0m4AEghO1Yvel.b_hO0aKNkaZNlDJj8Yo30FbXQ7HChW4Zb4fxK1ORP7Lciahw_ZG0L4364T vhtvij4EEpTyFMoAbd4lZcTC4Sl2CBseQxT3EF74- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:36:13 +0000 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:36:08 +0000 (UTC) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message-ID: <647488547.3965722.1597966568345@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water direction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3965721_2030759992.1597966568341" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16455 aolloki Apache-HttpClient/4.5.7 (Java/1.8.0_252) Content-Length: 18272 ------=_Part_3965721_2030759992.1597966568341 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A good point....The aircraft engine will be closer to a 100% duty cycle tha= n a racer. Also the racer has (had) its gone now, a very rich idle jet set.= The closed throttle from max RPM for braking shuts off the oil supply (It = is in the fuel) as well as the fuel. So the added fuel helped cool the engi= ne.=C2=A0 I also like the big sheets of flame out the tail pipe. A real cro= wd pleaser. However, best power was at 9,400 RPM and it had about 250 HP.=C2=A0 Best po= wer for an airplane will be (depending on everything) around 6,000 to 7,000= RPM. Based on how much fuel costs. So maybe 160 to 180HP or 200HP to 230HP= boosted. But you can go to full throttle and sit on it for an hour or more= . A much higher hill to climb.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That voice you hear when you rea= d is you. Put everything you read or hear in the "MAYBE" box. Put everythin= g you see in the "POSSIBLY" box. If you didn't do it yourself, it didn't ha= ppen. This information is worth exactly what you paid for it.......LEH In a message dated 8/20/2020 6:26:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes: I don't know if this applies to Lynn's racer, but a ground bound track race= r (actual road races; not Indy, or NASCAR show-racing) typically has a foot= on the brake almost as much as on the gas. Radically different duty cycle. Charlie On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 5:08 PM 12348ung@gmail.com wrote: Lynn, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I can relate to all you say having had the same problems wi= th hydraulics.=C2=A0 However although I should know better than question yo= ur advice,---=C2=A0 Is a =C2=A05/8 =C2=A0hole enough?=C2=A0 The standard pi= pe is 1.3/8 inch which makes the 5/8 only about =C2=BC size without doing t= he actual maths??=C2=A0 I can put a restrictor on the outlet to the engine = which will be the ideal spot to put the Turbo return water pipe in as there= will be a =E2=80=9Csuction=E2=80=9D at that spot.=C2=A0 Lynn mate you worr= y me, but I have to bow to your experience, Thanks to all again,=C2=A0 Neil. =C2=A0 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 11:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water direction =C2=A0 -Cool the plug side first with the coldest coolant you can generate. You wa= nt the highest pressure available to be found inside the engine so as to av= oid boiling coolant.=C2=A0 Boiling point of coolant is a function of pressu= re and temperature. So, you can buy radiator pressure caps for racing up to= 30 PSI pop pressure. So NASCAR can run 240 degree coolant temps and have t= he engine last for 4 hours. In olden times we broached little cooling fins = around the back of the plug holes in the rotor housing. Others fly cut fins= on a mill. But that just shows you that the biggest heat load is around th= e plugs. Others put coolant feed pipes right between the plugs for even bet= ter heat control. Do not change the direction of the coolant flow, in my op= inion. =C2=A0 In 5th grade we learned that fluids are not compressible. True, but coolant= contains bits of air in bubbles that we cannot remove. So the coolant appe= ars to be compressible just like air. So, when we spin up the pump it compr= esses to some extent the coolant it is pushing through the system.=C2=A0 So= , in a closed system that means that the coolant on the suction side of the= pump will drop to a lower pressure than that on the pressure side. But low pressure in the coolant invites boiling (cavitation). Notice the lo= wer radiator hoses on cars are larger in diameter=C2=A0than the upper (Pres= sure side) hoses. So in every car you see the exact same situation. It is t= hen a universal problem with cooling engines. =C2=A0 I use a 5/8" restricter in the at the top water outlet to the radiator to k= eep that hole as the primary limit to flow rather than have the radiator or= engine internals be the primary limit. This makes the engine internals ope= rate at the highest pressure in the system. And reduces the pressure drop i= n front of the pump. At first I just replaced the stock thermostat with a r= estricter but later I welded the restricter onto the water outlet. =C2=A0 Many have told me that the wide open system will work better, but af= ter 30 years of racing with no cooling problems.........I disagree.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lynn E. Hanover =C2=A0 In a message dated 8/20/2020 4:11:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes:=20 =C2=A0 Hi Neil. =C2=A0 Two thoughts I imagine that might create issues: 1. Energy transfer down due to delta T being lower, increasing the danger o= f nucleate boiling near the plugs 2. Creating a higher differential between the hot and cold sides of the eng= ine producing increased expansion differences across the engine. =C2=A0 Question: Do impeller pumps that we use suck and push equally well? My gues= s is that they don=E2=80=99t. If this doesn=E2=80=99t matter would it help with the physical layout to su= ck the water through rather than push it through? =C2=A0 Cheers =C2=A0 Steve Izett =C2=A0 > On 20 Aug 2020, at 3:30 pm, 12348ung@gmail.com wrote: >=20 > Gents, >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Looking today how = to hook up my electric water pump.=C2=A0 The simplest is to send the water = reverse to a standard pump.=C2=A0 I do understand the hot side and the cold= er side but with the water being changes every 1 - 2 seconds, does this rea= lly matter? > Thoughts? >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 Neil. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/L= ist.html ------=_Part_3965721_2030759992.1597966568341 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
A good point....The aircraft engine will be closer to a 100% duty cycle than a racer. Also the racer has (had) its gone now, a very rich idle jet set. The closed throttle from max RPM for braking shuts off the oil supply (It is in the fuel) as well as the fuel. So the added fuel helped cool the engine.  I also like the big sheets of flame out the tail pipe. A real crowd pleaser.

However, best power was at 9,400 RPM and it had about 250 HP.  Best power for an airplane will be (depending on everything) around 6,000 to 7,000 RPM. Based on how much fuel costs. So maybe 160 to 180HP or 200HP to 230HP boosted. But you can go to full throttle and sit on it for an hour or more. A much higher hill to climb.   That voice you hear when you read is you. Put everything you read or hear in the "MAYBE" box. Put everything you see in the "POSSIBLY" box. If you didn't do it yourself, it didn't happen.
This information is worth exactly what you paid for it.......LEH

In a message dated 8/20/2020 6:26:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

I don't know if this applies to Lynn's racer, but a ground bound track racer (actual road races; not Indy, or NASCAR show-racing) typically has a foot on the brake almost as much as on the gas. Radically different duty cycle.

Charlie

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 5:08 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Lynn,

                I can relate to all you say having had the same problems with hydraulics.  However although I should know better than question your advice,---  Is a  5/8  hole enough?  The standard pipe is 1.3/8 inch which makes the 5/8 only about ¼ size without doing the actual maths??  I can put a restrictor on the outlet to the engine which will be the ideal spot to put the Turbo return water pipe in as there will be a “suction” at that spot.  Lynn mate you worry me, but I have to bow to your experience,

Thanks to all again,  Neil.

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 11:49 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water direction

 

-Cool the plug side first with the coldest coolant you can generate. You want the highest pressure available to be found inside the engine so as to avoid boiling coolant.  Boiling point of coolant is a function of pressure and temperature. So, you can buy radiator pressure caps for racing up to 30 PSI pop pressure. So NASCAR can run 240 degree coolant temps and have the engine last for 4 hours. In olden times we broached little cooling fins around the back of the plug holes in the rotor housing. Others fly cut fins on a mill. But that just shows you that the biggest heat load is around the plugs. Others put coolant feed pipes right between the plugs for even better heat control. Do not change the direction of the coolant flow, in my opinion.

 

In 5th grade we learned that fluids are not compressible. True, but coolant contains bits of air in bubbles that we cannot remove. So the coolant appears to be compressible just like air. So, when we spin up the pump it compresses to some extent the coolant it is pushing through the system.  So, in a closed system that means that the coolant on the suction side of the pump will drop to a lower pressure than that on the pressure side.

But low pressure in the coolant invites boiling (cavitation). Notice the lower radiator hoses on cars are larger in diameter than the upper (Pressure side) hoses. So in every car you see the exact same situation. It is then a universal problem with cooling engines.

 

I use a 5/8" restricter in the at the top water outlet to the radiator to keep that hole as the primary limit to flow rather than have the radiator or engine internals be the primary limit. This makes the engine internals operate at the highest pressure in the system. And reduces the pressure drop in front of the pump. At first I just replaced the stock thermostat with a restricter but later I welded the restricter onto the water outlet.

  Many have told me that the wide open system will work better, but after 30 years of racing with no cooling problems.........I disagree. 

 

Lynn E. Hanover

 

In a message dated 8/20/2020 4:11:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

 

Hi Neil.

 

Two thoughts I imagine that might create issues:

1. Energy transfer down due to delta T being lower, increasing the danger of nucleate boiling near the plugs

2. Creating a higher differential between the hot and cold sides of the engine producing increased expansion differences across the engine.

 

Question: Do impeller pumps that we use suck and push equally well? My guess is that they don’t.

If this doesn’t matter would it help with the physical layout to suck the water through rather than push it through?

 

Cheers

 

Steve Izett

 

> On 20 Aug 2020, at 3:30 pm, 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

>

> Gents,

>                Looking today how to hook up my electric water pump.  The simplest is to send the water reverse to a standard pump.  I do understand the hot side and the colder side but with the water being changes every 1 - 2 seconds, does this really matter?

> Thoughts?

>                      Neil.

 

 

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