X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=zH84+iQVYCMqht19D97Ieg==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=RG6hcgD4AAAA:8 a=fR6g6WPwAAAA:8 a=lkQhDqtvKEJmxFB7enYA:9 a=q400eQu7iElJxuVA:21 a=Et1OFHuzTWjgQGCm:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=rvDMOSRjhVKZ1PiGzfoA:9 a=gXOXdmFHRtaNRqKN:21 a=D5PjSQAWNr4rXny3:21 a=BK6t3wib64a0ANji:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=N6I4LDFSjv0JWTRmzZqO:22 a=pVye9tYEF4-vSOQs7cMh:22 From: "Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com" Received: from mail-oi1-f180.google.com ([209.85.167.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 605269 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 19:56:28 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.167.180; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-oi1-f180.google.com with SMTP id o21so17256747oie.12 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 16:56:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=PHdj0AL8wx8N9L75TawQVXHbrA7CqWov6vGvrZuSyII=; b=Zx2Ljk8ZsRpAdbBbkyLudibKdaoFQyqBhw8viqT+RBV4qPtuDgpIM66GwgSK47R4hT iijPJvGzK6xEf9Q91Z1U41UhA4MNN9k8r1iaK7EiOpyZG1xLB7o0tdNi3/rUBCHWzfVU glJAGw6SJHjrI/gSbgratfU0vKH1ectdBw1tBg+EhmAJ7DbU70ggsU5aXOdQb+oNWqyc hRZYWvnrxuTOhq5Qb/7PjU647NJLVzGF7EwOx8pzLc+L69l7nievwq5jozYsLzH/LyrN I88S/ODLuhEZEH/iFq3Ilmkwf7rlKWpmLupNyWFlC37kSAEoA8pRXZmwXKGxS7/mBcPI oJ0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=PHdj0AL8wx8N9L75TawQVXHbrA7CqWov6vGvrZuSyII=; b=bA9L2XxriBYi4GPd7B4ZypAgICVr/lFMclqNOCHQuItxe5fnWlW57m96cpmaf6PLa0 9/qqgBOwOneOy2uxAbJFXev/0BvRnyTp7dGkANeHTov+WuhPdNTB7H+tGmAVfCEMrRR9 I+PjTwv6+XASdOe+3UZVOoWvguWcCr7JADlE1im6slNX9NlevkkZmU9rUIclurzUVktp MuRWYOvq2a0PkoS35BEQLXCzPf+j/iphYxiXP0aoiKb/A2PV9rFTjXRX12TqJxhp3deY FimZDXgroS/7cSHnT5WRjQdtJbh7dRniGZoEOLjyvlGElrqdGDuZztQaMFjF9GFEcs7Z fCnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ZS/rZP19Rlh31XDR8zPTr0f6GItXZf1cO9uzu+AvGGxcYBM4s Zf8zRK7HFQDnsyq+s5YScCvZSxfvWxti9EkOtRZ+ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxISfR0mBfz63hoHO2/Np5w34+GeEPvoRbhdTXPHa+z4B+Fz/f6rJd6X7Ie06wqxd1Gi0FW+0C5WfShDz+tB+o= X-Received: by 2002:a54:410a:: with SMTP id l10mr743610oic.6.1596585371267; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 16:56:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:55:54 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e877ab05ac15ff35" --000000000000e877ab05ac15ff35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Neil; I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said it was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe later this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he could just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That's kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine down to him. Then I'm only paying shipping one way. So for you that would make even more sense. Todd Bartrim On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Dave and all, > > Finally great advice that I cannot get > anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line go= es dead. The oil > cut off is great as well for I have personal experience with a turbo > failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil that= can fit > into an exhaust! That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- > all 5 gallons of it. > > Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freight > both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will be > $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will be > another $300 at least. > > > > Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Hi Dave; > > What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? > > > > Todd Bartrim > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. > > > > Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its > proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be > giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perhaps > you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not goi= ng > to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to > achieve it. > > > > The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b it > ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short bursts. > I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turbo to see wh= at > I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for > about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impeller was runnin= g > over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. It probably onl= y > lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full power. > The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was almost home and > decided to let it loose a little. I was running about 30" MAP at 17.5k > altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. > > > > My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-of= f > valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my > installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the > exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you ca= n > get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you > need. > > > > Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are > realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to > fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste > various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the > internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. Try > to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away > from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You wi= ll > find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily > available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an > aircraft. > > > > Best, > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Group, > > I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I > settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as = to > not get into > > any overspeed problems..........FWIW > > > > http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 > > > > Kelly troyer > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Dave, > > Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the > upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock > Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? > > Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > James, > > I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also have > options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the > level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about > Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or > TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. > > > > Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate variou= s > parameters in selecting a turbo. > > > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > James, > > 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. Thi= nk they > have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world trying t= o > get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk = to > drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bought 2 hitachi turb= os > for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings. > > There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight > only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much t= o > go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler that > may fit. > > Best, Neil. > > > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and > size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience i= s > appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from > aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage for > turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst > > > > > --000000000000e877ab05ac15ff35 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Neil;
=C2=A0 I talked to BNR today on the phone abo= ut my needs and wants. He said it was about a 3 week turnaround time on the= turbo, so I said maybe later this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 do= llar core charge, he could just get one there and modify it for me and I ca= n keep this one. That's kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me th= at much to ship mine down to him. Then I'm only paying shipping one way= .
=C2=A0 =C2=A0So for you that would make even more sense.=C2=A0<= br clear=3D"all">
Todd Bartrim

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dav= e and all,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Finally great advice that I cannot get anywh= ere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line goes dead= .=C2=A0 The oil cut off is great as well for I have personal experience wit= h =C2=A0a turbo failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amou= nt of oil that can fit into an exhaust!=C2=A0 That took more time to clean = than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallons of it.=C2=A0 =

=C2=A0=C2=A0Will see what I= can source here in OZ =C2=A0as to a turbo , as the freight both ways to th= e US=C2=A0 is murderous.=C2=A0 Happy with the mod cost which will be $1300 = Oz dollars.=C2=A0 Still a cheap turbo.=C2=A0 Freight I am guessing will be = another $300 at least.

=C2=A0

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in= aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 4,= 2020 4:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraf= t

=C2=A0

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil?

=C2=A0

<= div>

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

O= n Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= > wrote:

Kelly, you are right.=C2=A0 I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my p= ost above.

=C2=A0

Mark, its not about the horsepower s= o much as keeping the turbo in its proper operating environment for the con= ditions you are going to be giving.=C2=A0 You mentioned "300-400hp&quo= t; in your post, but it seem that perhaps you dont=C2=A0have a specific=C2= =A0target in mind.=C2=A0 Thats fine, but you are not going to land much abo= ve 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to achieve it.=C2=A0= =C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

The stock hitachi you mention is a= T3 turbine.=C2=A0 It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran with were only rated at 20= 0hp in the car - and only for short bursts.=C2=A0 I did what you are thinki= ng about doing.=C2=A0 I ran the stock turbo to see what I would get.=C2=A0 = I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for about 70 flight h= ours.=C2=A0 Looking=C2=A0at its turbo map, the impeller was running over 10= 0k RPM.=C2=A0 It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0 It probabl= y only lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full pow= er.=C2=A0 The turbo imploded on my first long cross country.=C2=A0 I was al= most home and decided to let it loose a little.=C2=A0 I was running=C2=A0ab= out 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude.=C2=A0 It lasted about 30 min doing that= .

=C2=A0

My advice, if you want to experiment wi= th turbos, is to install a shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo= .=C2=A0 I now have one in my installation.=C2=A0 When the turbo=C2=A0goes i= t will be hemorrhaging=C2=A0oil into the exhaust.=C2=A0 Without a shut-off = valve, you will run out of oil before you can get very far.=C2=A0 With the = valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you need.

=C2=A0

Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you.=C2=A0 Make up = numbers that are realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realisti= cally=C2=A0want to fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters.=C2=A0 Yo= u can cut and paste various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 They are= available on the internet but most of the relevant=C2=A0ones are there on = the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 Try to keep the turbo in its center island of effici= ency while staying away from the 'surge' line.=C2=A0 Also, keep the= RPM under 60k if possible.=C2=A0 You will find that Kellys suggestion of t= he TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily available.=C2=A0 You will also see = that the stock T3 does not belong in an aircraft.

=C2=A0

Best,

Dave Leon= ard

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly = Troyer keltro@gmail.c= om <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Group,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have no running experience yet but = when I purchased my turbo I settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 wi= th a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as to not get into=C2=A0

=

any overspeed problems..........FWIW

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3= , 2020 at 4:51 PM 1= 2348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dave,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just how much extra Hp do you think you got wit= hy the upgraded Turbo?=C2=A0 I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the st= ock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am I off with the fairys having this expectation?=

Neil.<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Ro= tary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [F= lyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

James= ,

I had my stock housing upgra= ded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.=C2=A0 They also have options for the Renisis.= =C2=A0http://bnrsupe= rcars.com/=C2=A0Cost is $950 for the level 4 upgrade.=C2=A0 Makes a nic= e tight fit.=C2=A0 I had a big discussion about Turbo maps that you can fin= d in the archives.=C2=A0 I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around = 350hp at sea level.

=C2= =A0

Attached is a turbo = excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate various parameters in select= ing a turbo.

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t> wrote:

James,

=C2=A0 2 flying= that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd=C2=A0 Bartrim and Dave leonnard.=C2=A0 Think= they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo.=C2=A0 Just been around the world= trying to get an affordable=C2=A0 turbo for my renesis which does not exis= t if you talk to drag racers etc.,=C2=A0 Quotes between $4500 and $6500.=C2= =A0 Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the othe= r will need bearings.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There was an offer of one in south Africa fo= r freight only.=C2=A0 Would be a bargain.=C2=A0 Just hooking mine up now, b= ut as usual much to go that I have not factored as usual.=C2=A0 Finally fou= nd an intercooler that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b= 's in aircraft

=C2=A0<= /u>

Does anyone out there have any re= commendations for a turbo (brand and size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-40= 0 hp range. Reasons or experience is appreciated! Auto racers have their ne= eds but are different from aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's a= re nearing the decision stage for turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst


=C2=A0

--000000000000e877ab05ac15ff35--