X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=yddmuxop3eaF2vhkAzXwyw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=9P43nWlEwwOwvGQHBZgA:9 a=AndjuaTSGoJ3xFjD:21 a=XPZqpO4WxopuN4yZ:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=oujrFieR96vKZW4k6UMA:9 a=TvuCfvwcFkkqX9Z_:21 a=UN8g9amm44oVWCkq:21 a=9RBaeNxNI0Li5yff:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f181.google.com ([209.85.208.181] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 603202 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:47:10 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.181; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f181.google.com with SMTP id v12so13566219ljc.10 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 07:47:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5H44aVS87qtFEwswN0Fh83WxrmgpDkGnVkk1m98Lqc8=; b=cnG8rVOQv8VMJpGnVkUpHJjIygwCj2aCS0UEwdLVIlNEaI4OMgmFAQ3fq9TpMEJ9tK w1zrDCpldZNhBxuBnUoBP7Y7zqaTTrOFkXer0h8C2m4pbQsphGVsXa5Q5oBMrRwH5pbn i33cHlit7+ddw8D/tknRPaIOJo3DCJfjs4dQoVV8kUtaABX7DbSC12ECgxkGjcxF/lcj T7jH/00Jw3hyP6n8eC0n2yo3pSr/LdmMH2IdZphpxPRxcadiCCsVhc8o2iVIEcGbS13F aTqU223u9CA9NPIDufY6qnTO+1y3zxBTAvU2mN/LcswmSXyewowCkV8PI4oye5q0+ICM Tb6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=5H44aVS87qtFEwswN0Fh83WxrmgpDkGnVkk1m98Lqc8=; b=GqlFq9tTPaJWND2KoOG08slHR2EtARQwqIs8WBgB9m+fSKVB1bgo1ohlR21lnsNPjj twzz0DQYMMPCZUfQGB31lV0sNUCmbVx1hQUPgC/8pf6JNRPK2BDcNSGmW7IIOShdBfEv 3JhjLtOrmd7HEzTcAOlFlGaIbt//c1Qid6Qsl27zDWE/fjaCWXlULj03SHLzbMNPGlCj FDJyW3dRN1nKaiZ/fn6X6nFiVmC7UdZn2yEX+QEeos8PJRhCkfDkdwsFEaT3VfuUlR6F 18k2wfYU6uQd8UyqQELgYQVgXhz1P8RykFaIPbQpOoTaLcKn3lqrRYLcB8jQnt2Bu1Jc cZrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530QZOYYNxVKPG+EKDAr4weho0u2/aOf5iEeWpcxduv1gdrfh43b tAO31MjHQVPkjejvCgwBFbR32gpZ38R7+ZUHGKNPnA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwOTfbQxA6Gh6d1WFNm2Ev2kIPmRllLP3Xhm+vrSqOg99zsAcjbikevBlVnDfET4qOfnfqmeYHeQLC2WmxtgI8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9092:: with SMTP id l18mr10848611ljg.469.1596552411452; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 07:46:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:44:21 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Kelly's 20B/Lyc 540 mount pics4 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000599e9b05ac0e5307" --000000000000599e9b05ac0e5307 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ernest good question...........Need someone smarter than me for an opinion on that although I would think by eliminating the differences in expansion rates between cast iron and aluminum would stop (or minimise ) movement of the side plates ............. Kelly Troyer On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:07 AM Ernest Christley echristley@att.net < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Concerning the stacks moving with heat cycles: Won't most of that go awa= y > when the plates and housing are made of the same materials? > > On Monday, August 3, 2020, 8:30:10 PM EDT, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.co= m > wrote: > > > Kelly, > The thing is that the drag race engine will never come to full > temperature. The senario with a plane is more like a full power run in a > race car with an hour long straightaway. The rotary eshaft is super stron= g > and isn=E2=80=99t the problem. The housings and plate stack likes to move= with > repeated thermal cycles. Not saying you can=E2=80=99t make something that= will > live, just mentioning potential problems. You will need to make some mods > to prevent problems. > Bill > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:38 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Blll , Lynn , Le Roux and All, > > All very valid concerns about engine twist and bending > moment............To my knowledge "Mistral" did not use .500 inch (12.7 m= m) > studs in their 20B engines and to my knowledge > the "Mistral" side housings were still cast iron (heavy).............A > purpose built 20B for aircraft in my opinion should have all alloy housin= gs > and .500 inch studs........... > > Think about this hypothetical situation..............You have an all > alloy 20B boosted to 70 inches map (about 1500 dyno hp) and tricked out > with all the racing options available in a > drag race car.............It is supported from a center housing (as a > stock engine)............Then at about 9000 rpm you drop the > clutch............What kind of bending and torsional loads do > you think this engine endures ??...........In Rotary racing circles this > happens all the time with amazing reliability...............Now think abo= ut > an all alloy 20B (boosted or NA) in an aircraft > driving only a propeller (no shock loads) built to racing standards as a > NA (no boost and approx 350 hp) and flown between 6000 to 7000 rpm or > boosted to normalize only............ > > Again the same engine (running at 6000 to 7000 rpm) boosted just > enough to dyno about 800 hp (piece of cake for a 20B)...........Of > course this is only my opinion and you know what > opinions are worth..............I understand that most of this group are > interested in the 13BREW or RX8 Renesis engines but you have to admit I > have made the forum lively lately !!.......... > > As things progress or digress I will let the forum know until told to > stop............Many thanks to Charlie for resizing my photos for the gro= up > ( I am better with a wrench in my hands)........ > > Best Regards, > Kelly Troyer > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:26 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > The bending loads are carried for the most part by the upper tension > bolts. The studded engines are using the tight fitting studs to manage > torsional loads. In high power street and drag race engines it was not at > all uncommon to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break out and > alignment hole in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil pressure. > The studs provide more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housings > in the correct shape. The housing walls tend to move away from the rotor > face during combustion. If you take apart an old engine you often find th= at > the rotor housings have a hint of black death (similar to black death on > the sides of pistons) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. This = is > the housing moving on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down > between bolt head and the threads. Later bolts are not...........more > clamping pressure. The case bolts used in high output engines fit snugl= y > in the holes. So the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torqued= . > One at a time....so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add HP > and less wear. Notice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on the > center iron so as to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover > > In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it possibl= e > be - why some of the early design allumnium casted sumps, of the Mistral= 3 > rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the bed type mount > for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and plate, has a l= ot > to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons as a solid unit, = as > well the bigger diameter tension bolts and =E2=80=9Cdowls=E2=80=9D > It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in these > loads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps. > The torque loads of the prop and all ads up. > > Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic > Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i > don=E2=80=99t know. > > Cracked Sump > > =E2=80=9CI did have a couple of teething problems; the most important one= was a > crack in the aluminum-cast engine sump that I found during taxi tests. > Mistral reacted in their usual fashion. After getting details, they > confirmed they had a crack in the same area on one of the sumps they > tested. They designed a reinforced sump, but never got a repeat crack on > the other sumps, so none of the new models were made. I was offered a > temporary replacement until the new sumps would be produced to replace al= l > present sumps. I decided to wait, and got my new sump within two months= =E2=80=94and > a Mistral engineer came and installed it for me.=E2=80=9D > > > Sent from my iPhone > Le Roux Breytenbach > > On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Charlie, and everyone rotary, > I can see the desire to put a rotary in a similar mount to a standard > aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that a Mazda wankel in its > automotive layout doesn=E2=80=99t work well as the stack of plates and ho= usings > isn=E2=80=99t set up to handle the bending moment. In Mazda=E2=80=99s rac= ing engines they > added plates to enable them to hang the engine from one end. They still > used cradle mounts. The Lyc engine shown in the example has 2 crankcase > halves solid front to rear where the mounts are. If you don=E2=80=99t pla= n to build > the rotary with some modifications for axial stiffness and housing locati= on > it isn=E2=80=99t a good idea to hang it from one of the end plates. > Bill Jepson > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:40 AM Charlie England > wrote: > > There are 8 pics in this series. My image resizer program got them down t= o > around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need to come in 8 separate emails. > > > --=20 Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --000000000000599e9b05ac0e5307 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ernest good question...........Need someone smarter than m= e for an opinion on that although I would think by=C2=A0eliminating the dif= ferences=C2=A0in expansion rates between
cast iron and aluminum=C2=A0wo= uld stop (or minimise ) movement of the side plates=C2=A0 .............

Kelly Troyer

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:07 AM Erne= st Christley echristley@att.net &= lt;flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et> wrote:
Concerning the stacks moving with heat cycles:=C2= =A0 Won't most of that go away when the plates and housing are made of = the same materials?

=20
=20
On Monday, August 3, 2020, 8:30:10 PM EDT, William Jeps= on wrjjrs@gmail.com <fly= rotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


=
Kelly,=C2=A0
The thing is that the drag race engi= ne will never come to full temperature. The senario with a plane is more li= ke a full power run in a race car with an hour long straightaway. The rotar= y eshaft is super strong and isn=E2=80=99t the problem. The housings and pl= ate stack likes to move with repeated thermal cycles. Not saying you can=E2= =80=99t make something that will live, just mentioning potential problems. = You will need to make some mods to prevent problems.
Bill

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:38 PM Kelly Troyer keltro= @gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Blll , Lyn= n , Le Roux and All,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 All very valid conce= rns about engine twist and bending moment............To my knowledge "= Mistral" did not use .500 inch (12.7 mm) studs in their 20B engines an= d to my knowledge
the "Mistral" side housings were stil= l cast iron (heavy).............A purpose built 20B for aircraft in my opin= ion should=C2=A0have=C2=A0all alloy housings and=C2=A0 .500 inch studs.....= ......

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Think=C2=A0about this h= ypothetical situation..............You have an all alloy 20B boosted to 70 = inches map (about 1500 dyno hp) and tricked out with all the racing options= available in a
drag race car.............It is supported from a = center housing (as a stock engine)............Then at about 9000 rpm you dr= op the clutch............What kind of bending and=C2=A0 torsional loads do<= /div>
you think this engine endures ??...........In Rotary racing circl= es this happens all the time with amazing reliability...............Now thi= nk about an all alloy 20B (boosted or NA) in an aircraft
driving = only a propeller (no shock loads) built to racing standards as a NA (no boo= st and approx 350 hp) and flown between 6000 to 7000 rpm or boosted to norm= alize only............

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Again the sam= e engine (running at 6000 to 7000 rpm) boosted just enough to dyno about 80= 0 hp (piece of cake for a 20B)...........Of course=C2=A0this is only my opi= nion and you know what
opinions=C2=A0are worth..............I und= erstand that most of this group are interested in the 13BREW or RX8 Renesis= engines but you have to admit I have made the forum lively lately !!......= ....
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0As things progress or digress = I will let the forum know until=C2=A0told to stop............Many thanks to= Charlie for resizing my photos for the group ( I am better with a wrench i= n my hands)........

Best Regards,
Kelly = Troyer=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:26 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <= ;flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
The bending loads are carried for the most part by the upp= er tension bolts. The studded engines are using the tight fitting studs to = manage torsional loads. In high power street and drag race engines it was n= ot at all uncommon to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break out a= nd alignment hole in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil pressure= . The studs provide more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housings= in the correct shape. The housing walls tend to move away from the rotor f= ace during combustion. If you take apart an old engine you often find that = the rotor housings have a hint of black death (similar to black death on th= e sides of pistons) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. This is t= he housing moving on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down betwe= en bolt head and the threads. Later bolts are not...........more clamping p= ressure.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The case bolts used in high output engines fit snugly = in the holes. So the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torqued. = One at a time....so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add HP a= nd less wear. Notice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on the ce= nter iron so as to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover=C2=A0 =C2= =A0

In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net writes:

Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it poss= ible be - why some of the early design =C2=A0allumnium casted sumps, of the= Mistral 3 rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the bed t= ype mount for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and plate,= has a lot to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons as a sol= id unit, as well the bigger diameter tension bolts and =E2=80=9Cdowls=E2=80= =9D
It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in t= hese loads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps.
The torque loads of the prop and all ads up.

Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic
Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i= don=E2=80=99t know.

= Cracked Sump

=E2=80=9CI did have a couple of = teething problems; the most important one was a crack in the aluminum-cast = engine sump that I found during taxi tests. Mistral reacted in their usual = fashion. After getting details, they confirmed they had a crack in the same= area on one of the sumps they tested. They designed a reinforced sump, but= never got a repeat crack on the other sumps, so none of the new models wer= e made. I was offered a temporary replacement until the new sumps would be = produced to replace all present sumps. I decided to wait, and got my new su= mp within two months=E2=80=94and a Mistral engineer came and installed it f= or me.=E2=80=9D


Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach

On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" target=3D"_b= lank">flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Charlie, and everyone rotary,
I can see the desire to put a rotary in a similar mount to a standard = aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that a Mazda wankel in its a= utomotive layout doesn=E2=80=99t work well as the stack of plates and housi= ngs isn=E2=80=99t set=C2=A0up to handle the bending moment. In Mazda=E2=80= =99s racing engines they added plates to enable them to hang the engine fro= m one end. They still used cradle mounts. The Lyc engine shown in the examp= le has 2 crankcase halves solid front to rear where the mounts are. If you = don=E2=80=99t plan to build the rotary with some modifications for axial st= iffness and housing location it isn=E2=80=99t a good idea to hang it from o= ne of the end plates.
Bill Jepson

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England ceengland7@= gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:40 AM Charlie England <ceengl= and7@gmail.com> wrote:
There are 8 pics in this series. My image re= sizer program got them down to around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need = to come in 8 separate emails.




-- =
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_&= quot;Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
--000000000000599e9b05ac0e5307--