X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=kJHSKnc3PKXu5vo30El/AQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=oSMvVwY2MYMA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=RG6hcgD4AAAA:8 a=fR6g6WPwAAAA:8 a=dzpjjaYSB4mqCd2g_ckA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Nl5otB6TD_-mNZVun8QA:9 a=HSXJPY82U1GEKV7P:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=N6I4LDFSjv0JWTRmzZqO:22 a=pVye9tYEF4-vSOQs7cMh:22 From: "David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ot1-f51.google.com ([209.85.210.51] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 601844 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 23:16:28 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.51; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by mail-ot1-f51.google.com with SMTP id r21so19011820ota.10 for ; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 20:16:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pbU6Nl8/HRlMGWDne7/HH9+zwC9Ztgwx0fJlcQQRS4I=; b=k/SLKaTg2oyI36WVvLst6YQsspy9mDd1aO9KwQWc6FYbuQVymt3TwkD2soxn6EvHN/ 8vE95zStnfEQ7b/+HU4IBuShx/uD6+iNrkUwoIAOZf6EciPFfqL9MmZMlSNvvsMZQj6Q 8Dof5rqaE1klueVtqBUn/6v04aI9PidpYSXWaeS6UeYV9xog+e2DvxIrAKX5oohqyc4s jKTQ9szPQeBKVQNByw79uIU01lmBtbpGbD69jIWDisn6ce5gvPO6jz/oHrf9VJG58T5c Em34lwGARJbgt6HIvjE2MgV85L3lBmw5Id1Bl3EgBgO7aTXDjLjIebRfMLqnv7GShogx Xeng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=pbU6Nl8/HRlMGWDne7/HH9+zwC9Ztgwx0fJlcQQRS4I=; b=NPsPztizloNFfqAVu7g33yhpAAUtsR8sT/ProXHATncX8HGaXzNT5BNcnMCSq29Ka7 boX/QSolo7lAzlBAiVoV//mfQLkQgOl+fO15ViL5NKnIdN68vD2xQ4zj0+V3sEiBqKZi Sd9p96KDwZp4aMa8e/azEW7mcHO/6qhbfzi9CkXKFxINmGDya8zQ55fUQmgujMrp8pHS 4HAz78Kvx8eH/c4STMTxMj1M/T2TDbMv9WPsg9bwi2WKYxpN5Eb/1KBKv8u+Y2lSm+md 0OmAIA8CepwvFrxTY7R6qrBJ2kXG9KIEbkhPwIIrraiNRiVLxVlDRouh5lCaA8SwIJJk 3EYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530s9Hw+axptszpL/eYe+JikLnXw7qU2AtWCwBmg8EzWvNUWt9zX jy7dl4TtBkH3bZtxCfnkTlPI2r7UrJlbNGBzI8A4aTwG X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz8J6P5kkiFpoF4KZW6n5PhPsIEA+qcWOI4d06GJjnd61WD+wmjr+k1p+OCLmhedPtBr0wrNItdzq1L96duY4s= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:786:: with SMTP id w6mr4162492ots.232.1596510971937; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 20:16:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 20:16:00 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005cc5c505ac04ad71" --0000000000005cc5c505ac04ad71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perhaps you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not going to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to achieve it. The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short bursts. I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turbo to see what I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impeller was running over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. It probably only lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full power. The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was almost home and decided to let it loose a little. I was running about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you can get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you need. Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. Try to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an aircraft. Best, Dave Leonard On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Group, > I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I > settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as = to > not get into > any overspeed problems..........FWIW > > http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 > > Kelly troyer > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Dave, >> >> Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the >> upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock >> Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? >> >> Neil. >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >> >> >> >> James, >> >> I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also have >> options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the >> level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about >> Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or >> TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. >> >> >> >> Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate >> various parameters in selecting a turbo. >> >> >> >> Dave Leonard >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> James, >> >> 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. Th= ink they >> have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world trying = to >> get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk= to >> drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bought 2 hitachi tur= bos >> for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings. >> >> There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight >> only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much = to >> go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler that >> may fit. >> >> Best, Neil. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >> >> >> >> Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and >> size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience = is >> appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from >> aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage fo= r >> turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst >> >> > > --0000000000005cc5c505ac04ad71 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kelly, you are right.=C2=A0 I even mentioned the TO4-E50 i= n my post above.

Mark, its not about the horsepower so m= uch as keeping the turbo in its proper operating environment for the condit= ions you are going to be giving.=C2=A0 You mentioned "300-400hp" = in your post, but it seem that perhaps you dont=C2=A0have a specific=C2=A0t= arget in mind.=C2=A0 Thats fine, but you are not going to land much above 1= 80hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to achieve it.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine.= =C2=A0 It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the c= ar - and only for short bursts.=C2=A0 I did what you are thinking about doi= ng.=C2=A0 I ran the stock turbo to see what I would get.=C2=A0 I was making= a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.=C2=A0 = Looking=C2=A0at its turbo map, the impeller was running over 100k RPM.=C2= =A0 It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0 It probably only las= ted that long because most of the time I was not running full power.=C2=A0 = The turbo imploded on my first long cross country.=C2=A0 I was almost home = and decided to let it loose a little.=C2=A0 I was running=C2=A0about 30&quo= t; MAP at 17.5k altitude.=C2=A0 It lasted about 30 min doing that.

My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to in= stall a shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo.=C2=A0 I now have = one in my installation.=C2=A0 When the turbo=C2=A0goes it will be hemorrhag= ing=C2=A0oil into the exhaust.=C2=A0 Without a shut-off valve, you will run= out of oil before you can get very far.=C2=A0 With the valve, you can cont= inue to fly n/a as long as you need.

Play around w= ith that spreadsheet I sent you.=C2=A0 Make up numbers that are realistic f= or how much boost at what altitude you realistically=C2=A0want to fly, then= find a turbo to fit those parameters.=C2=A0 You can cut and paste various = turbo maps onto the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 They are available on the internet b= ut most of the relevant=C2=A0ones are there on the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 Try t= o keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away from= the 'surge' line.=C2=A0 Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible.= =C2=A0 You will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice= and readily available.=C2=A0 You will also see that the stock T3 does not = belong in an aircraft.

Best,
Dave Leonar= d

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Group= ,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my= turbo I settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbi= ne housing so as to not get into=C2=A0
any overspeed problems....= ......FWIW


Kelly troyer

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net> wrote:

Dave,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just how much extra Hp do you think you got wit= hy the upgraded Turbo?=C2=A0 I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the st= ock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am I off with the fairys having this expectation?=

Neil.<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Ro= tary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [F= lyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

James= ,

I had my stock housing upgra= ded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.=C2=A0 They also have options for the Renisis.= =C2=A0http://bnrsupe= rcars.com/=C2=A0Cost is $950 for the level 4 upgrade.=C2=A0 Makes a nic= e tight fit.=C2=A0 I had a big discussion about Turbo maps that you can fin= d in the archives.=C2=A0 I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around = 350hp at sea level.

<= /u>=C2=A0

Attached is a turbo e= xcel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate various parameters in selecti= ng a turbo.

=C2= =A0

Dave Leonard<= /p>

=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et> wrote:

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">James,

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:0.5in">=C2= =A0 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd=C2=A0 Bartrim and Dave leonnard.= =C2=A0 Think they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo.=C2=A0 Just been arou= nd the world trying to get an affordable=C2=A0 turbo for my renesis which d= oes not exist if you talk to drag racers etc.,=C2=A0 Quotes between $4500 a= nd $6500.=C2=A0 Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go wh= ile the other will need bearings.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There was an offer of one in sou= th Africa for freight only.=C2=A0 Would be a bargain.=C2=A0 Just hooking mi= ne up now, but as usual much to go that I have not factored as usual.=C2=A0= Finally found an intercooler that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary motors = in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Tu= rbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Does anyone out there= have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and size) for a 13b in an airc= raft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience is appreciated! Auto racers h= ave their needs but are different from aircraft... or so I've heard. My= 13b's are nearing the decision stage for turbos. Thanks, James Whitehu= rst



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