X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=CHzBpAoX7KV5uG9H1SVGrA==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=nlrfvSn_kFbMYHNfCXwA:9 a=SQNbgNPIJ_h-JUoO:21 a=YlzjQu1qeFp6_KJd:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=iUMMBPHyfYHApOFFZdkA:9 a=QCcjIid6CKjOPtFo:21 a=z6Ab62lU59Omh77p:21 a=xuIkbWeVbCjh8LNC:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lf1-f44.google.com ([209.85.167.44] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 601732 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 22:02:15 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.167.44; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lf1-f44.google.com with SMTP id c15so4195509lfi.3 for ; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 19:02:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=iWbT6IoQkJnK9XK2nfIHELb2Boq/nR22mYj2MtEp1Kk=; b=gC24oPvQbzChQBX1KOh8K0rdye6Xhwj8U8EaS4PRC+JZp+PUJGXrpP++7Y+UE5xv4b PIVKna8fz+8iKd+Rsy58FWGcp46W6WOJyMlysCCOME1rnddrg7YAHzRvS3/nRt+zJ6Zc RZjTGrtxEuoIYXqVcCDDBVEO0KaDW+bPuAXDNFOm8wFIj17HbwS+jJ7R7OBzesCH8UmT /xxJtrt5b9unnO0y3o+O4ZjI2VWxhw+rpudhHlPM68tlOM8LWZZ2qpT8jxVFJwajbuq2 7Z1s4yHLfZFxGHQEIm9ftoKPHl7c+2cMwRAI4Jkt6M/csO04TE30bLcksxsygUzOK7Kf OXTQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=iWbT6IoQkJnK9XK2nfIHELb2Boq/nR22mYj2MtEp1Kk=; b=Aw2Qzf7olsF/2Do7BtbCdMpW5rHUsAxw+SxXnbk/fTAq3+GcLa45J6xpYl2i9xt3b2 qk+kxwNFpnZlHKF1S9lDwARVkieD7MTCWLoujy30n1NSYZGLqUMP34jqR1M2CGTG1Q26 +aux4clnPHGKW7z5DDs6J0fU/G5t+2cursr/WS05YWWBFOGrRur0tVaKV7JnWSyWAvV5 qX6Ni8llYk45ZxU2gib+01Rf5KKYUd0qq8BPf0mkm4MdpW+id9xchJTWe5HLHRTYW6w6 KwbR9v+RY/jkmhrFRe2Y4JpZBGtJ8Qf1I9vmhBO1EVTPxxbBT3oBOnA/u1asvjLIb4Se z6uQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532f4EXvR9kxkfMbLKzQCF+qlhUCuMEl0VwfX9yruNCvrPcA+M6l 8FIyqBRQFVe7eK9d7ktBVmbLVuyHqI4z9JXE8/cY2Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzNoCMFsoGU5lRAi7d/Cnwn4fOICX8nHlWrR+mk6qEI8sq2R76zZwVPbi8uSWk1h0R0fpbKxVtwCPcw3w7/nkI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1055:: with SMTP id c21mr4976549lfb.84.1596506518250; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 19:01:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 20:59:27 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Kelly's 20B/Lyc 540 mount pics4 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e6eafc05ac03a37e" --000000000000e6eafc05ac03a37e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill so noted and a valid point..........I certainly would not advocate running in an aircraft at the drag race power levels (except at Reno in the sport class maybe).........I have mentioned previously that I would like to see someone with an unlimited budget build up a alloy 20B for a race "Lancair or Glasair" that are currently using dual turboed Lycoming I/O 580's (flying grenades) with a life span in minutes..........The problem is a PSRU that will handle upward of 1000 hp...........You could probably build two race alloy 20b's for the price of one Lyc.............Just dreaming !!..........When the rotary started whipping butt they would probably ban or sandbag the rotary as they have in sport car racing........... That is why I mentioned the lower levels of power for an aircraft 20B which is used at more or less constant power and temperature levels for long periods of time which in my mind would reduce the amount of side plate movement caused by the constant power and temperature changes as in sport car racing............As usual very good input from you...........Thanks......= . Kelly troyer On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:30 PM William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Kelly, > The thing is that the drag race engine will never come to full > temperature. The senario with a plane is more like a full power run in a > race car with an hour long straightaway. The rotary eshaft is super stron= g > and isn=E2=80=99t the problem. The housings and plate stack likes to move= with > repeated thermal cycles. Not saying you can=E2=80=99t make something that= will > live, just mentioning potential problems. You will need to make some mods > to prevent problems. > Bill > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:38 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Blll , Lynn , Le Roux and All, >> >> All very valid concerns about engine twist and bending >> moment............To my knowledge "Mistral" did not use .500 inch (12.7 = mm) >> studs in their 20B engines and to my knowledge >> the "Mistral" side housings were still cast iron (heavy).............A >> purpose built 20B for aircraft in my opinion should have all alloy housi= ngs >> and .500 inch studs........... >> >> Think about this hypothetical situation..............You have an al= l >> alloy 20B boosted to 70 inches map (about 1500 dyno hp) and tricked out >> with all the racing options available in a >> drag race car.............It is supported from a center housing (as a >> stock engine)............Then at about 9000 rpm you drop the >> clutch............What kind of bending and torsional loads do >> you think this engine endures ??...........In Rotary racing circles this >> happens all the time with amazing reliability...............Now think ab= out >> an all alloy 20B (boosted or NA) in an aircraft >> driving only a propeller (no shock loads) built to racing standards as a >> NA (no boost and approx 350 hp) and flown between 6000 to 7000 rpm or >> boosted to normalize only............ >> >> Again the same engine (running at 6000 to 7000 rpm) boosted just >> enough to dyno about 800 hp (piece of cake for a 20B)...........Of >> course this is only my opinion and you know what >> opinions are worth..............I understand that most of this group are >> interested in the 13BREW or RX8 Renesis engines but you have to admit I >> have made the forum lively lately !!.......... >> >> As things progress or digress I will let the forum know until told to >> stop............Many thanks to Charlie for resizing my photos for the gr= oup >> ( I am better with a wrench in my hands)........ >> >> Best Regards, >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:26 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> The bending loads are carried for the most part by the upper tension >>> bolts. The studded engines are using the tight fitting studs to manage >>> torsional loads. In high power street and drag race engines it was not = at >>> all uncommon to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break out and >>> alignment hole in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil pressur= e. >>> The studs provide more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housin= gs >>> in the correct shape. The housing walls tend to move away from the roto= r >>> face during combustion. If you take apart an old engine you often find = that >>> the rotor housings have a hint of black death (similar to black death o= n >>> the sides of pistons) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. Thi= s is >>> the housing moving on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down >>> between bolt head and the threads. Later bolts are not...........more >>> clamping pressure. The case bolts used in high output engines fit snu= gly >>> in the holes. So the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torqu= ed. >>> One at a time....so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add = HP >>> and less wear. Notice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on t= he >>> center iron so as to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover >>> >>> In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >>> >>> Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it >>> possible be - why some of the early design allumnium casted sumps, of = the >>> Mistral 3 rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the be= d >>> type mount for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and >>> plate, has a lot to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and iron= s as >>> a solid unit, as well the bigger diameter tension bolts and =E2=80=9Cdo= wls=E2=80=9D >>> It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in thes= e >>> loads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps. >>> The torque loads of the prop and all ads up. >>> >>> Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic >>> Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i >>> don=E2=80=99t know. >>> >>> Cracked Sump >>> >>> =E2=80=9CI did have a couple of teething problems; the most important o= ne was a >>> crack in the aluminum-cast engine sump that I found during taxi tests. >>> Mistral reacted in their usual fashion. After getting details, they >>> confirmed they had a crack in the same area on one of the sumps they >>> tested. They designed a reinforced sump, but never got a repeat crack o= n >>> the other sumps, so none of the new models were made. I was offered a >>> temporary replacement until the new sumps would be produced to replace = all >>> present sumps. I decided to wait, and got my new sump within two months= =E2=80=94and >>> a Mistral engineer came and installed it for me.=E2=80=9D >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> Le Roux Breytenbach >>> >>> On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> Charlie, and everyone rotary, >>> I can see the desire to put a rotary in a similar mount to a standard >>> aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that a Mazda wankel in i= ts >>> automotive layout doesn=E2=80=99t work well as the stack of plates and = housings >>> isn=E2=80=99t set up to handle the bending moment. In Mazda=E2=80=99s r= acing engines they >>> added plates to enable them to hang the engine from one end. They still >>> used cradle mounts. The Lyc engine shown in the example has 2 crankcase >>> halves solid front to rear where the mounts are. If you don=E2=80=99t p= lan to build >>> the rotary with some modifications for axial stiffness and housing loca= tion >>> it isn=E2=80=99t a good idea to hang it from one of the end plates. >>> Bill Jepson >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:40 AM Charlie England >>> wrote: >>> >>> There are 8 pics in this series. My image resizer program got them down >>> to around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need to come in 8 separate emails= . >>> >>> >>> --000000000000e6eafc05ac03a37e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bill so noted and a valid p= oint..........I certainly would not advocate running in an aircraft at the = drag race power levels=C2=A0 (except at Reno in the sport class maybe).....= ....I have mentioned previously that I would like to see someone with
a= n unlimited budget build up a alloy 20B for a race "Lancair or Glasair= " that are currently using dual turboed Lycoming I/O 580's (flying= grenades) with a life span in minutes..........The problem is a PSRU that = will handle upward of 1000
hp...........You could probably build = two race alloy 20b's for the price of one=C2=A0Lyc.............Just dre= aming !!..........When the rotary started whipping butt they would probably= ban or sandbag the rotary as they have in sport car racing...........

=C2=A0 =C2=A0That is why I mentioned the lower levels = of power for an aircraft 20B which is used at more or less constant power a= nd temperature=C2=A0levels for long=C2=A0periods of time which in my mind w= ould reduce the amount of side plate movement caused
by the constant po= wer and temperature changes as in sport car racing............As usual=C2= =A0very good=C2=A0 input from you...........Thanks.......

Kelly troyer

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:30 PM William = Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= wrote:
Kelly,=C2=A0
The thing is that = the drag race engine will never come to full temperature. The senario with = a plane is more like a full power run in a race car with an hour long strai= ghtaway. The rotary eshaft is super strong and isn=E2=80=99t the problem. T= he housings and plate stack likes to move with repeated thermal cycles. Not= saying you can=E2=80=99t make something that will live, just mentioning po= tential problems. You will need to make some mods to prevent problems.
Bill

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:38 PM Kelly Troyer <= a href=3D"mailto:keltro@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">keltro@gmail.com &= lt;flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Blll , Lynn , Le Roux= and All,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 All very valid concerns about e= ngine twist and bending moment............To my knowledge "Mistral&quo= t; did not use .500 inch (12.7 mm) studs in their 20B engines and to my kno= wledge
the "Mistral" side housings were still cast iron= (heavy).............A purpose built 20B for aircraft in my opinion should= =C2=A0have=C2=A0all alloy housings and=C2=A0 .500 inch studs...........

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Think=C2=A0about this hypothetica= l situation..............You have an all alloy 20B boosted to 70 inches map= (about 1500 dyno hp) and tricked out with all the racing options available= in a
drag race car.............It is supported from a center hou= sing (as a stock engine)............Then at about 9000 rpm you drop the clu= tch............What kind of bending and=C2=A0 torsional loads do
= you think this engine endures ??...........In Rotary racing circles this ha= ppens all the time with amazing reliability...............Now think about a= n all alloy 20B (boosted or NA) in an aircraft
driving only a pro= peller (no shock loads) built to racing standards as a NA (no boost and app= rox 350 hp) and flown between 6000 to 7000 rpm or boosted to normalize only= ............

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Again the same engine (= running at 6000 to 7000 rpm) boosted just enough to dyno about 800 hp (piec= e of cake for a 20B)...........Of course=C2=A0this is only my opinion and y= ou know what
opinions=C2=A0are worth..............I understand th= at most of this group are interested in the 13BREW or RX8 Renesis engines b= ut you have to admit I have made the forum lively lately !!..........
=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0As things progress or digress I will let= the forum know until=C2=A0told to stop............Many thanks to Charlie f= or resizing my photos for the group ( I am better with a wrench in my hands= )........

Best Regards,
Kelly Troyer=C2= =A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:26 P= M lehanover lehanove= r@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
The bending loads are carried for the most part by the upp= er tension bolts. The studded engines are using the tight fitting studs to = manage torsional loads. In high power street and drag race engines it was n= ot at all uncommon to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break out a= nd alignment hole in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil pressure= . The studs provide more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housings= in the correct shape. The housing walls tend to move away from the rotor f= ace during combustion. If you take apart an old engine you often find that = the rotor housings have a hint of black death (similar to black death on th= e sides of pistons) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. This is t= he housing moving on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down betwe= en bolt head and the threads. Later bolts are not...........more clamping p= ressure.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The case bolts used in high output engines fit snugly = in the holes. So the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torqued. = One at a time....so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add HP a= nd less wear. Notice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on the ce= nter iron so as to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover=C2=A0 =C2= =A0

In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline= .net writes:

Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it poss= ible be - why some of the early design =C2=A0allumnium casted sumps, of the= Mistral 3 rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the bed t= ype mount for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and plate,= has a lot to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons as a sol= id unit, as well the bigger diameter tension bolts and =E2=80=9Cdowls=E2=80= =9D
It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in t= hese loads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps.
The torque loads of the prop and all ads up.

Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic
Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i= don=E2=80=99t know.

= Cracked Sump

=E2=80=9CI did have a couple of = teething problems; the most important one was a crack in the aluminum-cast = engine sump that I found during taxi tests. Mistral reacted in their usual = fashion. After getting details, they confirmed they had a crack in the same= area on one of the sumps they tested. They designed a reinforced sump, but= never got a repeat crack on the other sumps, so none of the new models wer= e made. I was offered a temporary replacement until the new sumps would be = produced to replace all present sumps. I decided to wait, and got my new su= mp within two months=E2=80=94and a Mistral engineer came and installed it f= or me.=E2=80=9D


Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach

On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.co= m <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Charlie, and everyone rotary,
I can see the desire to put a rotary in a similar mount to a standard = aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that a Mazda wankel in its a= utomotive layout doesn=E2=80=99t work well as the stack of plates and housi= ngs isn=E2=80=99t set=C2=A0up to handle the bending moment. In Mazda=E2=80= =99s racing engines they added plates to enable them to hang the engine fro= m one end. They still used cradle mounts. The Lyc engine shown in the examp= le has 2 crankcase halves solid front to rear where the mounts are. If you = don=E2=80=99t plan to build the rotary with some modifications for axial st= iffness and housing location it isn=E2=80=99t a good idea to hang it from o= ne of the end plates.
Bill Jepson

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England = ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>> wrote:


There are 8 pics in this series. My image re= sizer program got them down to around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need = to come in 8 separate emails.





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