X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=aTL5S57ZQgueWqBheg4P7g==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=ad1WmcueCrwA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=SeeIjDzaZZDhmRnWYJ4A:9 a=hD5yC-WHzPtmcAGI:21 a=XaZa3hCDOozcpYcp:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=TFCjIMvjLGgheyP-_HcA:9 a=RySDSrlpPNbMj6XU:21 a=kfJ2OszM2mM6GmJ4:21 a=WBkkhI4eCRC8JH3A:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f176.google.com ([209.85.208.176] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 601620 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 20:30:05 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.176; envelope-from=wrjjrs@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f176.google.com with SMTP id v9so7150986ljk.6 for ; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 17:30:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=cvVN2cEaqTxcEBlQfPC0sc6YXHRntG+5eQVIc7cG8wo=; b=N8dxKG+s7xei7rRSLpBbRr+rYThUZk3jr5ELCynNMvJMTWUBVsQMCeMwHvfutP7oab GGVPwGDQORKvFf1kXDKeUbwEc7kLm79EscYBz1f8XYpng5TVwDQ/A4lgSHW4Uh1YbmSM FAfuxfeSF6EpxgkkoorVXROfhYM/k4gFm/9ldwuP/WVPyXI4wd2zC6W8TAU7Dg7EEIao Xx9oyYKg5xCARdxlQJSuh0Rt9NCnVx1YgYYLu25cDI1Fq3cepvDScExaJlcM2EcQxC+8 wr4qEYFDqikOXgp7+BCYoMAAZK7BYDLr2R3aK0Mp6OrEu6cXo0wC8NN/lhnFMI8FA4HD F2IA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=cvVN2cEaqTxcEBlQfPC0sc6YXHRntG+5eQVIc7cG8wo=; b=SFHd+O3lskjwqJqBg4X0qPihJdMkHyd/sGfXfmq2Wx9AL13OauMDSPwcE/LJa+j/iS M87Nn9BaEaA4Tol5WCKASiIe32Mfs/oseeNv8pETQm3tIIv3mgpuUfscJGHzmJChCguJ dmclBXr7/QsX2Ss+4ivoFAlAaPiDqXeGfwaXqz9RH1WuHTNk4dUJq5+m/7XJ40Xjeh01 KdTLDIWhK470MetKxLrw6GE/G3nq5Q8/lz0HVlTPFD7Jr2hM7A7RqQM3JJz/gxHE5XYI uoBf6SzmqGMt3wq2OUwHamRRBtckb5tWO3id7T5P190dfFYlSfwBriCleWDtn9racYgO vqUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530blEAkEVe0rGCd/uyDfkB1g4o0+O7Q0FJRmXa2RoNbD+TDLRMd wl75VIiQIVko3+8k90zrgKxet8VTLfHyJP/2VgN4Xg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwfOrk2mVpsR1HQEmeGt+Ppj6DivEbtyibHfQdJOTzy+BaXghykW1bLQSI/wV0u0paa83FseSxKsUIGCFaiMcU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8997:: with SMTP id c23mr4330856lji.150.1596500987780; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 17:29:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:29:36 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Kelly's 20B/Lyc 540 mount pics4 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000042a1f005ac025a87" --00000000000042a1f005ac025a87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, The thing is that the drag race engine will never come to full temperature. The senario with a plane is more like a full power run in a race car with an hour long straightaway. The rotary eshaft is super strong and isn=E2=80= =99t the problem. The housings and plate stack likes to move with repeated thermal cycles. Not saying you can=E2=80=99t make something that will live, just me= ntioning potential problems. You will need to make some mods to prevent problems. Bill On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:38 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Blll , Lynn , Le Roux and All, > > All very valid concerns about engine twist and bending > moment............To my knowledge "Mistral" did not use .500 inch (12.7 m= m) > studs in their 20B engines and to my knowledge > the "Mistral" side housings were still cast iron (heavy).............A > purpose built 20B for aircraft in my opinion should have all alloy housin= gs > and .500 inch studs........... > > Think about this hypothetical situation..............You have an all > alloy 20B boosted to 70 inches map (about 1500 dyno hp) and tricked out > with all the racing options available in a > drag race car.............It is supported from a center housing (as a > stock engine)............Then at about 9000 rpm you drop the > clutch............What kind of bending and torsional loads do > you think this engine endures ??...........In Rotary racing circles this > happens all the time with amazing reliability...............Now think abo= ut > an all alloy 20B (boosted or NA) in an aircraft > driving only a propeller (no shock loads) built to racing standards as a > NA (no boost and approx 350 hp) and flown between 6000 to 7000 rpm or > boosted to normalize only............ > > Again the same engine (running at 6000 to 7000 rpm) boosted just > enough to dyno about 800 hp (piece of cake for a 20B)...........Of > course this is only my opinion and you know what > opinions are worth..............I understand that most of this group are > interested in the 13BREW or RX8 Renesis engines but you have to admit I > have made the forum lively lately !!.......... > > As things progress or digress I will let the forum know until told to > stop............Many thanks to Charlie for resizing my photos for the gro= up > ( I am better with a wrench in my hands)........ > > Best Regards, > Kelly Troyer > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:26 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> The bending loads are carried for the most part by the upper tension >> bolts. The studded engines are using the tight fitting studs to manage >> torsional loads. In high power street and drag race engines it was not a= t >> all uncommon to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break out and >> alignment hole in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil pressure= . >> The studs provide more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housing= s >> in the correct shape. The housing walls tend to move away from the rotor >> face during combustion. If you take apart an old engine you often find t= hat >> the rotor housings have a hint of black death (similar to black death on >> the sides of pistons) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. This= is >> the housing moving on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down >> between bolt head and the threads. Later bolts are not...........more >> clamping pressure. The case bolts used in high output engines fit snug= ly >> in the holes. So the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torque= d. >> One at a time....so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add H= P >> and less wear. Notice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on th= e >> center iron so as to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover >> >> In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >> >> Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it >> possible be - why some of the early design allumnium casted sumps, of t= he >> Mistral 3 rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the bed >> type mount for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and >> plate, has a lot to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons= as >> a solid unit, as well the bigger diameter tension bolts and =E2=80=9Cdow= ls=E2=80=9D >> It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in these >> loads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps. >> The torque loads of the prop and all ads up. >> >> Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic >> Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i >> don=E2=80=99t know. >> >> Cracked Sump >> >> =E2=80=9CI did have a couple of teething problems; the most important on= e was a >> crack in the aluminum-cast engine sump that I found during taxi tests. >> Mistral reacted in their usual fashion. After getting details, they >> confirmed they had a crack in the same area on one of the sumps they >> tested. They designed a reinforced sump, but never got a repeat crack on >> the other sumps, so none of the new models were made. I was offered a >> temporary replacement until the new sumps would be produced to replace a= ll >> present sumps. I decided to wait, and got my new sump within two months= =E2=80=94and >> a Mistral engineer came and installed it for me.=E2=80=9D >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> Le Roux Breytenbach >> >> On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Charlie, and everyone rotary, >> I can see the desire to put a rotary in a similar mount to a standard >> aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that a Mazda wankel in it= s >> automotive layout doesn=E2=80=99t work well as the stack of plates and h= ousings >> isn=E2=80=99t set up to handle the bending moment. In Mazda=E2=80=99s ra= cing engines they >> added plates to enable them to hang the engine from one end. They still >> used cradle mounts. The Lyc engine shown in the example has 2 crankcase >> halves solid front to rear where the mounts are. If you don=E2=80=99t pl= an to build >> the rotary with some modifications for axial stiffness and housing locat= ion >> it isn=E2=80=99t a good idea to hang it from one of the end plates. >> Bill Jepson >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:40 AM Charlie England >> wrote: >> >> There are 8 pics in this series. My image resizer program got them down >> to around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need to come in 8 separate emails. >> >> >> --00000000000042a1f005ac025a87 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kelly,=C2=A0
The thing = is that the drag race engine will never come to full temperature. The senar= io with a plane is more like a full power run in a race car with an hour lo= ng straightaway. The rotary eshaft is super strong and isn=E2=80=99t the pr= oblem. The housings and plate stack likes to move with repeated thermal cyc= les. Not saying you can=E2=80=99t make something that will live, just menti= oning potential problems. You will need to make some mods to prevent proble= ms.
Bill

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:38 PM Kelly Tr= oyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= wrote:
Blll , Lynn , Le Roux and All,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A= ll very valid concerns about engine twist and bending moment............To = my knowledge "Mistral" did not use .500 inch (12.7 mm) studs in t= heir 20B engines and to my knowledge
the "Mistral" side= housings were still cast iron (heavy).............A purpose built 20B for = aircraft in my opinion should=C2=A0have=C2=A0all alloy housings and=C2=A0 .= 500 inch studs...........

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thin= k=C2=A0about this hypothetical situation..............You have an all alloy= 20B boosted to 70 inches map (about 1500 dyno hp) and tricked out with all= the racing options available in a
drag race car.............It i= s supported from a center housing (as a stock engine)............Then at ab= out 9000 rpm you drop the clutch............What kind of bending and=C2=A0 = torsional loads do
you think this engine endures ??...........In = Rotary racing circles this happens all the time with amazing reliability...= ............Now think about an all alloy 20B (boosted or NA) in an aircraft=
driving only a propeller (no shock loads) built to racing standa= rds as a NA (no boost and approx 350 hp) and flown between 6000 to 7000 rpm= or boosted to normalize only............

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Again the same engine (running at 6000 to 7000 rpm) boosted just eno= ugh to dyno about 800 hp (piece of cake for a 20B)...........Of course=C2= =A0this is only my opinion and you know what
opinions=C2=A0are wo= rth..............I understand that most of this group are interested in the= 13BREW or RX8 Renesis engines but you have to admit I have made the forum = lively lately !!..........
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0As thing= s progress or digress I will let the forum know until=C2=A0told to stop....= ........Many thanks to Charlie for resizing my photos for the group ( I am = better with a wrench in my hands)........

Best Reg= ards,
Kelly Troyer=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:26 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:
The bending loads are carried for the most part by the upp= er tension bolts. The studded engines are using the tight fitting studs to = manage torsional loads. In high power street and drag race engines it was n= ot at all uncommon to fail an alignment dowel (shear it off) or break out a= nd alignment hole in the iron. Very messy as the top runs have oil pressure= . The studs provide more clamping pressure and help keep the rotor housings= in the correct shape. The housing walls tend to move away from the rotor f= ace during combustion. If you take apart an old engine you often find that = the rotor housings have a hint of black death (similar to black death on th= e sides of pistons) on the clamping surface near the spark plugs. This is t= he housing moving on the cast iron. Early case bolts were necked down betwe= en bolt head and the threads. Later bolts are not...........more clamping p= ressure.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The case bolts used in high output engines fit snugly = in the holes. So the holes are reamed with the case bolted up and torqued. = One at a time....so is costly to have done. It is also a source of add HP a= nd less wear. Notice that even later 13-Bs have the engine mounts on the ce= nter iron so as to reduce engine twisting. ......Lynn E Hanover=C2=A0 =C2= =A0

In a message dated 8/3/2020 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline= .net writes:

Bill : The bending moment and axial loads you mentioned. Could it poss= ible be - why some of the early design =C2=A0allumnium casted sumps, of the= Mistral 3 rotary engines developed cracks ? as i remembered that the bed t= ype mount for the rotary ( pusher type config.) the thicker sump and plate,= has a lot to do with these loads and stiffen the rotars and irons as a sol= id unit, as well the bigger diameter tension bolts and =E2=80=9Cdowls=E2=80= =9D
It was just crossing my mind, and i have no previous experience in t= hese loads and type of mounts as well as the casted sumps.
The torque loads of the prop and all ads up.

Included : cut out of the article Mistral Magic
Could the loads be part of the sump problem in these type of mounts? i= don=E2=80=99t know.

= Cracked Sump

=E2=80=9CI did have a couple of = teething problems; the most important one was a crack in the aluminum-cast = engine sump that I found during taxi tests. Mistral reacted in their usual = fashion. After getting details, they confirmed they had a crack in the same= area on one of the sumps they tested. They designed a reinforced sump, but= never got a repeat crack on the other sumps, so none of the new models wer= e made. I was offered a temporary replacement until the new sumps would be = produced to replace all present sumps. I decided to wait, and got my new su= mp within two months=E2=80=94and a Mistral engineer came and installed it f= or me.=E2=80=9D


Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach

On 03 Aug 2020, at 19:34, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.co= m <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Charlie, and everyone rotary,
I can see the desire to put a rotary in a similar mount to a standard = aircraft engine. But I want to remind everyone that a Mazda wankel in its a= utomotive layout doesn=E2=80=99t work well as the stack of plates and housi= ngs isn=E2=80=99t set=C2=A0up to handle the bending moment. In Mazda=E2=80= =99s racing engines they added plates to enable them to hang the engine fro= m one end. They still used cradle mounts. The Lyc engine shown in the examp= le has 2 crankcase halves solid front to rear where the mounts are. If you = don=E2=80=99t plan to build the rotary with some modifications for axial st= iffness and housing location it isn=E2=80=99t a good idea to hang it from o= ne of the end plates.
Bill Jepson

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:45 AM Charlie England = ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>> wrote:


There are 8 pics in this series. My image re= sizer program got them down to around 110-140 KB each, so they'll need = to come in 8 separate emails.


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