X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=GNns0A+hMfDB3dPTwgDFUw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=eKhGbfrDAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=3w_WYkU7Vz4HHC8mPZ8A:9 a=3ixshg-HCqOp7OBm:21 a=5zZC_E5ZT4ererqv:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=MapYJXmLHEFGg5zlEYMA:9 a=In-Mfwl2_Sr_eeID:21 a=i4zCb4uYrjPsKnLB:21 a=OsBf2D5WQugI3FcG:21 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=UDUmxsVa2tvOjJGaeGiU:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f194.google.com ([209.85.208.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 532793 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 17:50:29 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.194; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f194.google.com with SMTP id q4so4500553lji.2 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:50:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=+ngMwR1qqfQCsI9ySw1Cwide80E+Prj0hVv4UHnsjhM=; b=mKdJEAli2h5eY5vadC6CP1+yM8zqiKem9mRjXmy7JH+YDmzsfigC+Zffega+Qcdw7z ZmrZ4SKNw/u5P1BJdFzlbHvKH2cQmZOZOG/El4agNfY8DZ4YeA2XegDtisFjNkINcPhT d0fgLTCfQSfgFIqnnDH/xC28eHUcgsjWONRTCED3nSrBpKxcMxyEnV/DV4mvOw29XUao Pu8+iBfw9egRk9KH/sy1s+m8v2libXci9/yyENkK33Pv6oEZAdO4AwoqcBoylYnyp1wp dl27V2yPh/e+fPkM9ydx1Ph/tLVa3xKza9po0nj70gxwyRt0O2RN+YUr/umbyJxsl06G 6/NQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=+ngMwR1qqfQCsI9ySw1Cwide80E+Prj0hVv4UHnsjhM=; b=V8kjX8HJnKiEbjaK1XPy2nHe2Ivd1PYYP8ukYAqtM3Rbvw4kxrhEIWwxrPZE9X2Vgp XPHopL1+0t1387rdr7P0wBKW6CU9R5BM1BAOhBDxks41nGhL2uZNpspPEMzLGP8UIvy8 p/iCab8IckZWm1s81XrY7MiLG3V6HXM/pwxK9Co3csZRl+2nmo4pQcBeAnYEKbUGOBQA T2UPh4qmvALJbkSeQpc0DCIdA3siKjK29EOLtbSVVWX7H+u7rL02Vy5PDwnXiIwrIPtJ IavvcND9FNSNk1Oy0bCJmv2VaPdIERVpON/0MWngRPN3Op85Y3Gtn2QQxyyfaaKYh1Cz IbWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532EkBlzbxMUuOT1v6pVJt1ClLruH7OJAF8f8EBZbtTLcSlm7sbY HUkMFLw1KdbUfrIRySFrhdiBztENea2aak6gEBXOrw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzPcMSRlyt37PnqOWdZbxAfZ0I14ttrP+3urdtFzof5wotD4bdzQvjyu0M9fFqE9wMdD9K5zrDwArx+BvVQ9k4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8043:: with SMTP id p3mr529513ljg.469.1594849812001; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:50:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:47:43 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000083b95c05aa81e835" --00000000000083b95c05aa81e835 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marc, The footprint (gasket ) of the Renesis Rx8 front cover is almost the same as the early 13B/20B front covers...........Their are some bolt spacing differences that are easily programed into the "Aircraft Specific Front housing" that we are trying to produce............Mark Stietle (formally of this group but since passed) adapted the RX8 Renesis water pump to his 20B powered Lancair by cutting the water pump part of a Renesis from a front cover and bolted it to his 20B.........One mounting bolt was not able to be used.......He retained the original 20B front cover......... I do not know how many flight hours Mark put on this water pump conversion but it was still flying up until his passing.........If you are just wanting to put the complete Renesis front cover on a stock 13BREW or 20B front iron housing I am not sure if there would be bolt bosses in the proper place......With an alloy front housing bolt bosses can be located wherever we want them.. Renesis front covers are readily available as are their water pumps.......If you look into the Rotary Racing Crowd you will find turbo versions of the Renesis......If anything the Renesis water pump has a bigger heat load because of the exhaust exiting into the side housings...........IMHO.........Hope this answers some of your questions.......... Best, Kelly Troyer On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 2:39 PM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Kelly, > > I=E2=80=99m still in, but need to make sure what needs to change from a > 13Brewtt/20B to mate up to a RX8 2004-2008 cover. And are they and their > water pump still (more or less) available? Not sure the RX8 pump can hand= le > the turbo variants=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.= might need options. > > M > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Saturday, July 11, 2020 6:48 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B > Mazda Front Side Housing-pics > > > > Marc & Ernest, > > Ernest first.............Nothing available to buy at this time and no > guarantee there will ever be..........Backplate / Mount is in CAD design > stage...........The plate for a stock engine is not the > problem..........There > > are several companies already producing alloy replacement side plates (Fo= r > an all alloy 13B/20B)..........What we are try to do is produce a front > sideplate (Firewall side in an aircraft) that incorporates the four > > (4) mounting points that will allow the engine to be a "Bolt up" to the > Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring using "30 degree , Dyna 1" mount cushions as > used by "Vans" RV10 and any other aircraft (Experimental) > > that normally use any of the several variations O/IO 540 > engines..........As stated previously this mount ring is available (Just > the Ring) from "Vans" currently for about $150.00.........I have already > purchased > > two of these...........Let it be known that some Lycoming O/IO 540 engine= s > used a "18 degree , Dyna 2" mount........We currently have no plans to > produce Blackplate / Mounts for the "Dyna 2" mount........The > > *"Mount Ears"* of The O-540 are bolted on to the crankcase and oil > sump so the two different types (Dyna 1 & Dyna 2) are removable and > replaceable......... > > > > Marc the bolt patterns for all the various front covers are virtually > the same with some slight variations in bolt spacing and the number of > bolts..........We are currently planning on the use of the RX8 Renesis > > 2004-2008 front cover and water pump and it looks like it will fit within > the confines of the O/IO 540 mount ring by removing the alternator boss > which stands on top of the water pump housing..............This will > > necessitate relocating the alternator..........This has not been worked > out at this time.........The RX8 Renesis 2009-2011 front cover could be > used also (We Think) but it is more complicated and incorporates the > > oil filter and we think a larger remote filter is a better > option...........Also the current plan is to take oil directly from the o= il > pump (As "Mistral" did) from the oil galley on the side of the front > housing (Plugged on the > > stock side housing) directly to the oil filter and oil cooler instead of > out the front cover (A weak point particularly in early covers at high oi= l > pressure).............As far as front covers it would be simple to order > bolt > > spacing for what ever cover you want (*But) Here is the problem*.........= ......The > early water pump alloy housings and cast iron water pumps are not only > heavy but they do not fit in the confines of the O/IO 540 > > mount ring and if the use of the 1986-1991 13B/20B ignition is planned we > are not sure at this time if it would clear the mount ring ........That i= s > the reason for use of the RX8 Renesis front cover (which requires > > the use of a crankshaft trigger ignition).........We do not > anticipate producing a plate to fit the RX8 Renesis engine so anything we > produce will be only for the 13B/20B engines...........All good question= s > and we > > are trying to come up with best solutions for several possible > problems......... > > > > Just as a note of interest I have purchased a non airworthy (Junk) > O-540 crankcase and currently have the "Vans" O-540 mount ring bolted to > it........This was done so we could accurately place the Eccentric > > shaft centerline of the 13B/20B in the exact same place of the O-540 > crankshaft centerline within the confines of the mount ring and judge how > everything will fit........... > > > > Best, > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:08 PM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Just remember there must be an option on the bolt pattern, to fit the > what?? The 13Brew tt, the Renesis, the 20B (only has the non-crankshaft > trigger ign type distributor arrangement, and which was only offered in t= he > AT version), etc. I am not sure what the bolt differences are in them, bu= t > I bet there are some! So what water pump and alternator provisions, as we= ll > as the trigger/distributor needs to be made clear as to requirements. > > I think that place in Australia offers aluminum side housings, abeit with > some sort of embedded wear surface (??? important), and maybe others. I= =E2=80=99ve > seen them offered before. > > > > Marc > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 10:25 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B > Mazda Front Side Housing-pics > > > > Charlie, > > After rereading your post I missed your point of using a "Mistral > Type" bolt on housing to the Renesis iron plate............Now that is > something that could be doable...........Just for your > > information my "Mistral" bolt on "Mount/Housing" will bolt on to the > "Renesis" front iron housing..........I do not have a "Renesis" front > housing in front of me but I believe it is a little thicker > > than a 13B/20B front housing because of the exhaust port..........This > extra thickness would probably make modifications to the oil pump gear , > spacers , and pulley stack necessary........ > > Something to investigate !!.......... > > Best > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 10:07 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: > > Charlie, > > Interesting point.........First question off the top of my head is how > well would alloy Renesis side plates tolerate exhaust gas going through > them and could stainless or inconel exhaust > > inserts as in the 13B/20B be put in them (cost being a factor also) > ?.............All the aftermarket alloy side plates being produced to my > knowledge are for the 13B/20B engines..........I > > suppose it could be done but as of now all the aftermarket auto > performance people using alloy side plates use the 13B/20B > platform...........Food for thought though......... > > > > Best > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Hi Kelly, > > I hate to muddy the waters, but I wonder how much interest there would be > in a Renesis plate vs the 13B plate. My personal preference is to use the > Renesis, for various reasons. My wish list would be for a Mistral-style > accessory housing, but made for the Renesis. > > Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd said, any and all info is > welcome. > > Charlie > > On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: > > Todd, > > Thanks for the comment and it is well received............Unless I > hear otherwise from a majority of the group I will then keep all further > discussion on the group forum...............As a further > > note if and when I acquire the mount/backplate under discussion I will > probably add it to my "P" port 13BREW that I mentioned instead of the > "Mistral" mount/housing that I have......I have > > a 20B but it would be seriously too much power and weight for my "Dyke > Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy housings.......... > > > > Thanks Again, > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Hi Kelly; > > This mount idea is an excellent idea worth pursuing as a practical > engine mount is a major roadblock to many builders that are otherwise > considering alternative engines. > > While I'm not currently in the market for one myself, so I hadn't raise= d > my hand to say "count me in", but the future could bring another project > where I would be happy to have that availability of a ready to go engine > mount. > > However I'd like to encourage you to keep all further discussion of > this topic online. I'd much rather simply delete a conversation that I ma= y > not have an interest in, than see the list with no discussion at all as > we've seen all too often in the recent past. Any and all discussion > pertaining to rotary powered aircraft helps to keep the list active and > encouraging to other builders, as well as adding ideas to the archives. > > The archives have been a gold mine of info for me over the years, > sometimes even reading my own comments to give me an insight as to "what > the hell was I thinking" when I came up with some failed concept. But mor= e > often than not as a source of info for more successful concepts. > > > > Todd > > C-FSTB > > RV9 13Bturbo > > > > On Fri., Jul. 10, 2020, 11:21 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com, < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Flyrotary Forum Members, > > I appreciate the response of all members to my posts > regarding the possible production of an *"Aircraft Specific Alloy 13B/20B > combination Engine mount/Side plate"* > > that would be a direct bolt in to a* Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna 1" > engine mount ring.............. *There are several aftermarket companies > currently producing all the alloy > > side housings that are necessary for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto > Racing crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce at this time is = a > front side housing specifically designed > > with the proper mount points to be essentially bolt in to any aircraft > that normally be powered by any of several versions of the Lycoming O/IO > 540 engine..........The current plan is to > > use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its water pump and ignition pickup > and retain the stock oil pump........This mount could also be used many > other aircraft that normally would use > > the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount > ring (currently available from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a 13BREW > engine (all alloy if wanted)........ > > > > This is a project that I have a personal interest in and at > this time cannot report a time schedule for its completion.........I have > committed for the first "Beta" housing for testing > > and will keep the forum appraised of progress...........The forum is > probably tired of me cluttering it up with this subject so for the time > being any of the group that have an interest in > > this project or have any additional questions or concerns may E mail me > directly if they choose..........Thanks for listening........... > > > > Best Regards > > Kelly Troyer > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:50 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Guys, > > More info on the "Glasair 3" in Europe with "Mistral" 20 B based > rotary engine......... > > > > https://www.kitplanes.com/more-mistral-magic/ > > > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Lynn, > > Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate is.........."Mistrall" took > oil from the normally plugged oil galley on the side of the front iron to= a > machined "O" ringed alloy plate that > > incorporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I > think) to bypass the oil cooler until oil temp got up to about 150 degre= es > F........I have this plate also.......... > > > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Marc & Lynn > > Yes the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like what my > 13BREW will look like except it will have "Racing Beat" alloy center & re= ar > housings and will be "P" ported........Their > > early 13B engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lynn > this is the early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and > front cover into one unit that bolts to the > > front iron and incorporates the water pump and mount for the alternator > plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It also had > provisions for a drive for a vacuum pump.........I did not get > > the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with my > housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal Type 1" Lycoming O/IO > 320-360 mount ring......... > > > > Thanks, > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a > cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron (black > plate).............LEH > > > > In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > > > > > Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great interest > back when. > > Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my ha= rd drive, > I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where they came fr= om > originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named =E2=80= =98Steve=E2=80=99. > Hopefully these pics get thru-there is a picture limit on this list that > makes it difficult to send larger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of = them I > have just of the backplate, what is the MB/KB limit here? > > Marc > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side > Housing > > > > Le Roux, > > Thanks for digging this up as it will answer a lot of questions from > the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side > housing / accessory drive > > that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorporated > the *"30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears"* for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine > mount..........This is > > what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting to come up > with a less expensive version of this plate but without all the > accessory drives and using the > > stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electri= c > airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words.......... > > Thanks Again, > > Kelly troyer > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach > breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: > > Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in Apri= l > 2011 > > > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-02-B/MISTR= AL_%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg > > > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MISTR= AL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg > > > > > > > > > Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral > mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and > mounting > > Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111 > > > > https://www.kitplanes.com/mistral-magic/ > > > > Le Roux > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Dave & Charlie, > > > > Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on front > cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the > Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know this > > as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I > have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P port= " > 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C= ) > > side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its > mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded into a > cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other > > housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest > "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had mount > points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) an= d > > only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the > engine.........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the engine= s > they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their > parts > > were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my > engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed to b= e > certifiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing > trail..........So they made > > engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock > "Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for aircraft > use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that we= re > not > > adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps > will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines.......... > > > > Best, > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: > > Charlie and Mark, > > Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side housing is what would be > replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that replica= te > the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric > > shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline > and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O/IO 540 30 degree > "Dyna1" mount system............. > > > > Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the rear dyn= a > focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the need for .500 > in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to > > further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the > O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over > 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and > > that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much > lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used allo= y > housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have never > > heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their > engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven > one way or another in actual use..........IMHO > > Best > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b > designs? > > M > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > > Kelly, > > The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not worke= d > out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot and cold > side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no way to > eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" and > move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not > recommended with the rotary. If you were to do this anyway I wouldn't do > it without a stud kit. You will have better results using a bed mount. YM= MV > > Bill Jepson > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > *I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing **capabi= lity > to produce an **Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing > machined from 7075-T6* *with mount points that would allow these engines* > > *to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as > used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 54= 0 > engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and at > this* > > > > > > > > > > *point I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in this > product if and when it is produced...........I personally am interested > this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are > capable of trulyamazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo > boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair= 's > that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in > engine...........The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are > producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines > that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are > turbo 20B's pulling1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good > reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing > hard.........IMHOWould like to hear what interest there may be in this > product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro or > con..............* > > > > > > Kelly Troyer > > > > > > > > > > > -- --00000000000083b95c05aa81e835 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Marc,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The footpri= nt (gasket ) of the Renesis Rx8 front cover is almost the same as the early= 13B/20B front covers...........Their are some bolt spacing differences tha= t are easily programed into=C2=A0
the "Aircraft Specific Fro= nt housing" that we are trying to produce............Mark Stietle (for= mally of this group but since passed) adapted the RX8 Renesis water pump=C2= =A0to his 20B powered=C2=A0
Lancair by cutting the water pump=C2= =A0part of a Renesis from a front cover and bolted it to his 20B.........On= e mounting bolt was not=C2=A0 able to be used.......He retained the origina= l 20B front cover.........
I do not know how many flight hours Ma= rk put on this water pump conversion but it was still flying up until his p= assing.........If you are just wanting to put the complete Renesis front co= ver on=C2=A0
a stock 13BREW or 20B front iron housing I am not su= re if there would be bolt bosses in the proper place......With an alloy fro= nt housing bolt bosses can be located wherever=C2=A0we want them..
=C2=A0 Renesis front covers are readily available as are their water pump= s.......If you look into the Rotary Racing Crowd you will find turbo versio= ns of the Renesis......If anything the Renesis water=C2=A0
pump h= as a bigger heat load because of the exhaust exiting into the side housings= ...........IMHO.........Hope this answers some of your questions..........<= /div>

Best,
Kelly Troyer=C2=A0

=
On Wed, Ju= l 15, 2020 at 2:39 PM Marc Wiese ca= rdmarc@charter.net <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Kelly,

I=E2=80=99m still= in, but need to make sure what needs to change from a 13Brewtt/20B to mate= up to a RX8 2004-2008 cover. And are they and their water pump still (more= or less) available? Not sure the RX8 pump can handle the turbo variants=E2= =80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.might need options.<= /u>

M

=C2=A0<= /p>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Saturday, July 1= 1, 2020 6:48 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation = Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics

=C2=A0

= Marc & Ernest,

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 Ernest=C2=A0first.............Nothing available to buy at this time and= no guarantee there will ever be..........Backplate / Mount is in CAD desig= n stage...........The plate for a stock engine is not the problem..........= There

are several compan= ies already producing alloy replacement side plates (For an all alloy 13B/2= 0B)..........What we are try to do is produce a front sideplate (Firewall s= ide in an aircraft) that incorporates the four

=

(4) mounting points that will allow the engine to be= a "Bolt up" to the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring using "30 d= egree , Dyna 1" mount cushions as used by "Vans" RV10 and an= y other aircraft (Experimental)

that normally=C2=A0use any of the several variations O/IO 540 engin= es..........As stated previously this mount ring=C2=A0is available (Just th= e Ring) from "Vans" currently for about $150.00.........I have al= ready purchased=C2=A0

tw= o of these...........Let it be known that some Lycoming O/IO 540 engines us= ed a "18 degree , Dyna 2" mount........We currently have no plans= to produce Blackplate / Mounts for the "Dyna 2" mount........The=

"Mount Ears&quo= t; of The O-540 are bolted on to the crankcase and oil sump=C2=A0so the= two different types (Dyna 1 & Dyna 2) are=C2=A0removable and replaceab= le.........=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marc the = bolt patterns for all the various front covers are virtually the same with = some slight variations=C2=A0 in bolt spacing and the number of bolts.......= ...We=C2=A0 are currently=C2=A0planning on the use of the RX8 Renesis

2004-2008 front cover and wat= er pump and it looks like it will fit within the confines of the O/IO 540 m= ount ring by removing the alternator=C2=A0boss which stands on top of the w= ater pump=C2=A0housing..............This will

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">necessitate relocating the alternator..........This h= as not been worked out at this time.........The RX8 Renesis 2009-2011 front= cover could be used also (We Think) but it is more complicated=C2=A0and in= corporates the=C2=A0

oil= =C2=A0filter and we think a larger remote filter is a better option........= ...Also the current plan is to take oil directly=C2=A0from the oil pump (As= "Mistral" did) from the oil galley on the side of the front hous= ing (Plugged=C2=A0on the=C2=A0

stock side housing) directly to the oil filter=C2=A0and oil cooler i= nstead of out the front=C2=A0cover (A weak point particularly=C2=A0in early= covers at high oil pressure).............As far as front covers it would= =C2=A0be simple to order bolt=C2=A0

spacing for what ever=C2=A0cover you want (But) Here is the = problem...............The early water pump=C2=A0alloy housings and cast= iron water pumps are not only heavy but they do not fit in the confines of= the O/IO 540

mount ring= and if the use of the 1986-1991 13B/20B ignition is planned we are not sur= e at this time if it would clear the mount ring ........That is the reason = for use of the RX8 Renesis front cover (which requires=C2=A0<= /p>

the use of a crankshaft trigger igniti= on).........We do not anticipate=C2=A0producing a plate to fit the RX8 Rene= sis engine so anything=C2=A0we produce=C2=A0 will be only for the 13B/20B e= ngines...........All good questions and we=C2=A0

are trying to come up with best solutions for seve= ral=C2=A0 possible problems.........

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0 Just as a note of interest I have purchased a non airworthy (Junk)= =C2=A0 O-540 crankcase and currently have the "Vans" O-540 mount = ring bolted to it........This was done so we could accurately place the Ecc= entric

shaft centerline = of the 13B/20B in the exact same place of the O-540 crankshaft centerline w= ithin the confines of the mount ring and judge how everything will fit.....= ......=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best,=

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0

=C2=A0=

On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:08 PM Ma= rc Wiese cardmarc= @charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Just remember there must be an option o= n the bolt pattern, to fit the what?? The 13Brew tt, the Renesis, the 20B (= only has the non-crankshaft trigger ign type distributor arrangement, and w= hich was only offered in the AT version), etc. I am not sure what the bolt = differences are in them, but I bet there are some! So what water pump and a= lternator provisions, as well as the trigger/distributor needs to be made c= lear as to requirements.

I think that place in Aust= ralia offers aluminum side housings, abeit with some sort of embedded wear = surface (??? important), and maybe others. I=E2=80=99ve seen them offered b= efore.

=C2=A0

Marc

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors i= n aircraft
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 10:25 PM
To: Ro= tary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [F= lyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Sid= e Housing-pics

=C2=A0<= u>

Charlie,

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 After rereading your post I missed your= point of using a "Mistral Type" bolt on housing to the Renesis i= ron plate............Now that is something that could=C2=A0be doable.......= ....Just for your

inform= ation=C2=A0my "Mistral" bolt on "Mount/Housing" will bo= lt on to the "Renesis" front iron housing..........I do not have = a "Renesis" front housing in front=C2=A0of me but I believe it is= a little thicker

than a= 13B/20B front housing because of the exhaust port..........This extra thic= kness would=C2=A0probably make modifications to the oil pump gear , spacers= , and pulley stack necessary........

=C2=A0 Something to investigate !!..........

Best

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 10:07 PM Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com> wrote:=

Charlie,

=C2=A0Interesting point.........First questio= n off the top of my head is how well would alloy Renesis side plates tolera= te exhaust gas going through them and could stainless or inconel exhaust=

inserts as in the 13B/20B = be put in them (cost being a factor also) ?.............All the aftermarket= alloy side plates being produced to my knowledge are for the 13B/20B engin= es..........I

suppose=C2= =A0it could be done but as of now all the aftermarket auto performance peop= le using alloy side plates use the 13B/20B platform...........Food for thou= ght though.........

=C2= =A0

Best=C2=A0=

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 PM Charlie England <= a href=3D"mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ceengland7@gmail.c= om <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Kelly,

I hate to muddy the water= s, but I wonder how much interest there would be in a Renesis plate vs the = 13B plate. My personal preference is to use the Renesis, for various reason= s. My wish list would be for a Mistral-style accessory housing, but made fo= r the Renesis.

Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd said, = any and all info is welcome.

Charlie

On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM, Ke= lly Troyer keltro@gma= il.com wrote:

=C2=A0 Todd, <= u>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the comment = and it is well received............Unless I hear otherwise from a majority = of the group I will then keep all further discussion on the group forum....= ...........As a further

= note if and when I acquire the mount/backplate under discussion I will prob= ably add it to my "P" port 13BREW that I mentioned instead of the= "Mistral" mount/housing that I have......I have=C2=A0<= /u>

a 20B but it would be seriously=C2= =A0too much power and weight for my "Dyke Delta" even if the 20B = were all alloy housings..........

=C2=A0

Thanks = Again,

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Bartrim = bartrim@gmail.com <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=

Hi Kelly;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This mount idea is an excellent idea worth pursuing a= s a practical engine mount is a major roadblock to many builders that are o= therwise considering alternative engines.

=C2=A0 While I'm not currently in the market for one = myself, so I hadn't raised my hand to say "count me in", but = the future could bring another project where I would be happy to have that = availability of a ready to go engine mount.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0However I'd like to encourage you to k= eep all further discussion of this topic online. I'd much rather simply= delete a conversation that I may not have an interest in, than see the lis= t with no discussion at all as we've seen all too often in the recent p= ast. Any and all discussion pertaining to rotary powered aircraft helps to = keep the list active and encouraging to other builders, as well as adding i= deas to the archives.

= =C2=A0 The archives have been a gold mine of info for me over the years, so= metimes even reading my own comments to give me an insight as to "what= the hell was I thinking" when I came up with some failed concept. But= more often than not as a source of info for more successful concepts.

=C2=A0

Todd

C-FSTB

RV9 13= Bturbo

=C2=A0=

On Fri., Jul. 10, 2020, 11:21 Kell= y Troyer keltro@gmail= .com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Flyrotary=C2=A0Forum Members,=C2= =A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I appreciate=C2=A0the response of all member= s to my posts regarding the possible production of an "Aircraft Spe= cific Alloy 13B/20B combination Engine mount/Side plate"=

that would be a direct bolt in to= a Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna 1" engine mount ring.....= ......... There are several aftermarket companies currently prod= ucing all the alloy

side= housings that are necessary=C2=A0for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto Rac= ing crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce at this time is a fro= nt side housing specifically designed

with the proper mount points to be essentially bolt in to an= y aircraft that normally be powered by any of several=C2=A0versions of the = Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........The current plan is to

<= /div>

use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its w= ater pump and ignition=C2=A0pickup and retain the stock oil pump........Thi= s mount could also be used many other aircraft=C2=A0that normally would use= =C2=A0

the Lycoming O/IO= 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring (currently avail= able from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a 13BREW engine (all all= oy if wanted)........=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is a project that I have a personal inter= est in and at this time cannot report a time schedule for its completion...= ......I have committed for the first "Beta" housing for testing= =C2=A0

and will keep the= forum appraised of progress...........The forum is probably tired of me cl= uttering it up with this subject so for the time being any of the group tha= t have an interest in

th= is project or have any additional questions or concerns may E=C2=A0mail=C2= =A0me directly if they choose..........Thanks for listening...........

=C2=A0

Best Regards

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 a= t 4:59 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Lynn, <= /p>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Forgot to mention what the &qu= ot;Black" plate is.........."Mistrall" took oil from the nor= mally plugged oil galley on the side of the front iron to a machined "= O" ringed alloy plate that

incorporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Contine= ntal part I think)=C2=A0 to bypass the oil=C2=A0cooler until=C2=A0oil temp = got up to about 150 degrees F........I have this plate also..........

=C2=A0

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Marc= & Lynn

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes = the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like what m= y 13BREW will look like=C2=A0except it will have "Racing Beat" al= loy center & rear housings and will be "P" ported........Thei= r

early 13B engines were= based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lynn this is the early mount= scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and front cover into one unit= that bolts to the=C2=A0

front iron and incorporates the water pump=C2=A0and mount for the alternat= or plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It also had provi= sions for a drive for a vacuum=C2=A0pump.........I did not get

the gears for this drive (less expen= se)(electric airplane) with my housing.........This casting mounts to a &qu= ot;Dynafocal=C2=A0Type 1" Lycoming O/IO 320-360 mount ring.........=

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul = 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= u>

In both pictur= es the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a cast oil pan and= a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron (black plate)...........= ..LEH

=C2=A0<= u>

In a message dated 7/9/= 2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

Great stuff. I saw and read that = Kitplanes article with great interest back when.

Here=E2=80=99s some co= nical mounting back plate pictures I found on my hard drive, I believe they= are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where they came from originally (p= erhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named =E2=80=98Steve=E2=80= =99. Hopefully these pics get thru-there is a picture limit on this list th= at makes it difficult to send larger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of= them I have just of the backplate, what is the MB/KB limit here?=

Marc<= /span>

=C2=A0

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:= 28 AM
To:<= /strong> Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [F= lyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing<= /u>

=C2=A0

Le Roux,=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for digging=C2=A0this up as it will answer= a lot of questions from the group..........This was the final iteration of= "Mistrals" alloy side housing / accessory drive

that was headed for US & European certification.........= It incorporated the = "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears" for the Lycoming O= /IO 540 engine mount..........This is

what t= his thread is all about..........My friend is attempting=C2=A0to come up wi= th a less expensive version of this=C2=A0plate but without all the accessor= y=C2=A0drives and using the

stock RX 8 front= cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electric airplanes)......= ......Photos are worth a thousand words..........

Thanks Again,

Kelly troyer=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul= 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:

Kelly= : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in April 2011<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= /div>

=C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54= 713-03-B/MISTRAL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg=C2=A0=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

Dating back to Apri= l 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral mounting here you post some= photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and mounting

Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111

=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Le Roux

=C2= =A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troy= er keltro@gmail.com <fly= rotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=C2=A0 Dave & Charlie,

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only the early "Mistr= al" 13B/20B based engines used=C2=A0the bolt on front cover/accessory = drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the Lycoming=C2=A0O/IO 32= 0-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know this=

as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy= housings.........I have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized = part alloy "P port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iro= n front (Rear in tractor A/C)

side housing b= ecause I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its mounts from a hou= sing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded=C2=A0into a cast alloy &q= uot;Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other

housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat= "..........The earliest "Mistral" 20B engines also used this= alloy front cover but also had mount points at the redrive end of the engi= ne (Essentially a Bed type Mount) and

only u= sed the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the engine.........= At that=C2=A0point in "Mistral's" engine development the engi= nes they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and= all their parts

were directly adaptable to = a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my engine)............The last it= eration of their engines were designed=C2=A0to be certifiable so they had t= o have a verifiable=C2=A0manufacturing trail..........So they made

engineering changes in their parts to eliminate thin= gs about the stock "Mazda" parts that were=C2=A0not needed or wer= e improvements for aircraft use..........Most of the last versions of their= engines had parts that were not

adaptable t= o the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps wil= l enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines..........<= u>

=C2=A0

Best,<= u>

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0

<= /div>

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 P= M Kelly Troyer <ke= ltro@gmail.com> wrote:

Charlie and Mark,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ye= s Charlie the accessory=C2=A0"iron"=C2=A0side housing is what wou= ld be replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that rep= licate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric

shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycomi= ng crankshaft centerline and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using= =C2=A0the O/IO 540 30 degree "Dyna1" mount system.............=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the re= ar dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the need for= .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to

further resistance to torsional twisting.........= .But remember that the O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward wei= ghts of 400+ to over 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount= system and

that an all alloy 13B or 20B (ev= en with reduction drive) will be much lighter..........I do not believe tha= t the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used alloy housings for other than the= front accessory housing and I have never

he= ard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their engin= es..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven one way= or another in actual use..........IMHO

Best=

Kelly Troyer

=C2= =A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wie= se cardmarc@chart= er.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 1= 3b and 20b designs?

M=

Sent from my iPad

=C2=A0

On Jul 8, = 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=C2=A0

Kelly,

The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary = but has not worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it ha= s a hot and cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but the= re is no way to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends t= o "work" and move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stre= ssed member is not recommended with the rotary. If=C2=A0 you were to do thi= s anyway I wouldn't do it without a stud kit. You will have better resu= lts=C2=A0using a bed mount. YMMV

Bill Jepson=

=C2=A0

On We= d, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

I am in contact with a per= son with the design and manufacturing=C2=A0capability= to produce an=C2=A0Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Fro= nt Side=C2=A0Housing machined from 7075-T6=C2=A0with mount points that=C2=A0would allow these engines

to be a= bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used by the = "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 en= gine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and at thi= s

point I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in th= is product if and when it is=C2=A0produced...........I personally am intere= sted this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are= capable of truly

amazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turb= o boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lan= cair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in en= gine...........

The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" an= d Lancairs" are producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycom= ing IO-550 engines that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp......= .....There are turbo 20B's pulling

1200 hp out in the auto racing wo= rld with good reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even bre= athing hard.........IMHO

Would like to hear what interest there may be i= n this product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pr= o or con..............=C2=A0=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= p style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">Kelly Troyer

<= /div>


=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

<= /div>

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