X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=yd+mVHmZi8jjjMuqT+Uk4w==:117 a=55z/sxGcUIPVrBMYBb4HRw==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=_Z_nqdSeG58A:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=DAwyPP_o2Byb1YXLmDAA:9 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=Jk_71c6_AAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=eKhGbfrDAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=kHav2DiFaf2BmureDS8A:9 a=DfFprjMTyUFD48mT:21 a=0tkuwxorYuKM5uM_:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=sJ4RN3QOcktqlM7KJXMA:9 a=Bo9qFyrAx0nsCHN_:21 a=ZbYl04JIyNB-Pplq:21 a=xcGRg7Rdt5O5XUty:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=G_nc3340XbsW-ukfCUQV:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=UDUmxsVa2tvOjJGaeGiU:22 a=Ry2eTNIdGMwtTGQdmMb7:22 From: " 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pl1-f193.google.com ([209.85.214.193] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 520977 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 12 Jul 2020 18:18:10 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.193; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-pl1-f193.google.com with SMTP id k4so4591488pld.12 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 2020 15:18:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language; bh=cO8HEx1nP/F949ORLr4h1gMX+tF080RJRE02yLCRfFA=; b=Nd3tTdKzLMPaxTSd5FY5q8CD0go/wC9lOc/sOjze/AYRzbJJb20rZtC//iU501+RCC Ig6ji6dU3EiDLXyoC8Fkqn/Af8onmPu6M/ufZWuz+JbhBP8f0s9Rp9+zKlJKBJYl9Cyr TLoTsb8BV+ud2PB9D8PDlOXaIZvsYnszkJdPuxa9REKq66akw0qNcRmd1o+9rm74a2uL 9QJQpKm5f4NPeMgQYjew6RWFR+DzqgvA80+0Wj9nMfKytoGE95WGwgm638zRcrQY/3hK d7hSzaQXEGQi4C4tp8Ln0JBFzTk4y3NmPib0WzOktOjHu8MtgvysK5a1EdtbQPzh//Xu O6JQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=cO8HEx1nP/F949ORLr4h1gMX+tF080RJRE02yLCRfFA=; b=Bo1HFjA8ptvaFleMXBCNjbKbmh/OSuYa+Wv9qWmjimqasO267rtJUIQi/o/jhqTTAa NMUqm8SgylBT1Yk47zE8jLdzFuNzN0xrGXeH/5gn0X3pU6DcVl37IhuEqWUaD9ogjeOK V/vre2IzzTMjF6etTNlgrDo06ajFXjlika8L9KoGDAWFg0Up5Wi91h7wJO2XIzmzC93D tDYDSEcd7+5wJ4c5xMDJlq/mHRekldCO5hMBHfpKSncn6g581ogDLx1Xfxt/CBQ2Fdh1 hZAn/0qjhldXQ8YmGCH1w6TOgfT/lnJLwwt7cgFNHxUPPNX4KqgEjh9Fz4MCcXxyn37u TNBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5332V3UOS7b6/wcbm6MXk1hec8FeNsKLrUvq7B8bbw0FUxyWcyL8 gsTNb55McyzGcI5QhiLeyevoMKV8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzH/aERwrDZ7hUAwkQlljlpKJiOv1E7MAPzrp4pQwYnN34knw7O5nLzjoxqxhxMKvgOgDxkXA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3755:: with SMTP id ne21mr16684622pjb.218.1594592273219; Sun, 12 Jul 2020 15:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from UserPC ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z5sm12717084pfn.117.2020.07.12.15.17.51 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 12 Jul 2020 15:17:52 -0700 (PDT) To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:17:49 +1000 Message-ID: <005f01d6589a$4882ae20$d9880a60$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0060_01D658EE.1A337910" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGvcLarN+GpxxpbHpT7nQOsjlT3rKlSUcmg Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D658EE.1A337910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, Yeah and the bloke in Brisbane is worse!! Promaz = want $350 an hour for their CNC while in Sydney it gets down to $75 an = hour! Hence the cost of what should be half what it is. Been round = this track many times and just gave up as too old to justify a CNC = machine at $250,000. Therefore we pay for someone else to buy one. BRG, Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2020 10:09 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B = Mazda Front Side Housing-pics =20 Neil, You are correct about "Pro-Maz'"...........They appear to have quality = products but they are not cheap..........Here is Link to their website...........http://promaz.com.au/ =20 Best , Kelly Troyer =20 On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 6:51 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: Marc & Ernest, Ernest first.............Nothing available to buy at this time and = no guarantee there will ever be..........Backplate / Mount is in CAD = design stage...........The plate for a stock engine is not the = problem..........There are several companies already producing alloy replacement side plates = (For an all alloy 13B/20B)..........What we are try to do is produce a = front sideplate (Firewall side in an aircraft) that incorporates the = four (4) mounting points that will allow the engine to be a "Bolt up" to the = Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring using "30 degree , Dyna 1" mount cushions = as used by "Vans" RV10 and any other aircraft (Experimental) that normally use any of the several variations O/IO 540 = engines..........As stated previously this mount ring is available (Just = the Ring) from "Vans" currently for about $150.00.........I have already = purchased=20 two of these...........Let it be known that some Lycoming O/IO 540 = engines used a "18 degree , Dyna 2" mount........We currently have no = plans to produce Blackplate / Mounts for the "Dyna 2" mount........The "Mount Ears" of The O-540 are bolted on to the crankcase and oil sump so = the two different types (Dyna 1 & Dyna 2) are removable and = replaceable.........=20 =20 Marc the bolt patterns for all the various front covers are = virtually the same with some slight variations in bolt spacing and the = number of bolts..........We are currently planning on the use of the = RX8 Renesis 2004-2008 front cover and water pump and it looks like it will fit = within the confines of the O/IO 540 mount ring by removing the = alternator boss which stands on top of the water pump = housing..............This will necessitate relocating the alternator..........This has not been worked = out at this time.........The RX8 Renesis 2009-2011 front cover could be = used also (We Think) but it is more complicated and incorporates the=20 oil filter and we think a larger remote filter is a better = option...........Also the current plan is to take oil directly from the = oil pump (As "Mistral" did) from the oil galley on the side of the front = housing (Plugged on the=20 stock side housing) directly to the oil filter and oil cooler instead of = out the front cover (A weak point particularly in early covers at high = oil pressure).............As far as front covers it would be simple to = order bolt=20 spacing for what ever cover you want (But) Here is the = problem...............The early water pump alloy housings and cast iron = water pumps are not only heavy but they do not fit in the confines of = the O/IO 540 mount ring and if the use of the 1986-1991 13B/20B ignition is planned = we are not sure at this time if it would clear the mount ring = ........That is the reason for use of the RX8 Renesis front cover (which = requires=20 the use of a crankshaft trigger ignition).........We do not anticipate = producing a plate to fit the RX8 Renesis engine so anything we produce = will be only for the 13B/20B engines...........All good questions and we = are trying to come up with best solutions for several possible = problems......... =20 Just as a note of interest I have purchased a non airworthy (Junk) = O-540 crankcase and currently have the "Vans" O-540 mount ring bolted to = it........This was done so we could accurately place the Eccentric shaft centerline of the 13B/20B in the exact same place of the O-540 = crankshaft centerline within the confines of the mount ring and judge = how everything will fit........... =20 =20 Best, Kelly Troyer =20 =20 On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:08 PM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net = > wrote: Just remember there must be an option on the bolt pattern, to fit the = what?? The 13Brew tt, the Renesis, the 20B (only has the non-crankshaft = trigger ign type distributor arrangement, and which was only offered in = the AT version), etc. I am not sure what the bolt differences are in = them, but I bet there are some! So what water pump and alternator = provisions, as well as the trigger/distributor needs to be made clear as = to requirements. I think that place in Australia offers aluminum side housings, abeit = with some sort of embedded wear surface (??? important), and maybe = others. I=E2=80=99ve seen them offered before. =20 Marc =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 10:25 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B = Mazda Front Side Housing-pics =20 Charlie, After rereading your post I missed your point of using a "Mistral = Type" bolt on housing to the Renesis iron plate............Now that is = something that could be doable...........Just for your information my "Mistral" bolt on "Mount/Housing" will bolt on to the = "Renesis" front iron housing..........I do not have a "Renesis" front = housing in front of me but I believe it is a little thicker than a 13B/20B front housing because of the exhaust port..........This = extra thickness would probably make modifications to the oil pump gear , = spacers , and pulley stack necessary........ Something to investigate !!.......... Best Kelly Troyer =20 =20 On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 10:07 PM Kelly Troyer > wrote: Charlie, Interesting point.........First question off the top of my head is how = well would alloy Renesis side plates tolerate exhaust gas going through = them and could stainless or inconel exhaust inserts as in the 13B/20B be put in them (cost being a factor also) = ?.............All the aftermarket alloy side plates being produced to my = knowledge are for the 13B/20B engines..........I suppose it could be done but as of now all the aftermarket auto = performance people using alloy side plates use the 13B/20B = platform...........Food for thought though......... =20 Best=20 Kelly Troyer =20 =20 On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com = > wrote: Hi Kelly, I hate to muddy the waters, but I wonder how much interest there would = be in a Renesis plate vs the 13B plate. My personal preference is to use = the Renesis, for various reasons. My wish list would be for a = Mistral-style accessory housing, but made for the Renesis. Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd said, any and all info is = welcome. Charlie On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = wrote: Todd,=20 Thanks for the comment and it is well received............Unless I = hear otherwise from a majority of the group I will then keep all further = discussion on the group forum...............As a further note if and when I acquire the mount/backplate under discussion I will = probably add it to my "P" port 13BREW that I mentioned instead of the = "Mistral" mount/housing that I have......I have=20 a 20B but it would be seriously too much power and weight for my "Dyke = Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy housings.......... =20 Thanks Again, Kelly Troyer =20 On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com = > wrote: Hi Kelly;=20 This mount idea is an excellent idea worth pursuing as a practical = engine mount is a major roadblock to many builders that are otherwise = considering alternative engines. While I'm not currently in the market for one myself, so I hadn't = raised my hand to say "count me in", but the future could bring another = project where I would be happy to have that availability of a ready to = go engine mount. However I'd like to encourage you to keep all further discussion of = this topic online. I'd much rather simply delete a conversation that I = may not have an interest in, than see the list with no discussion at all = as we've seen all too often in the recent past. Any and all discussion = pertaining to rotary powered aircraft helps to keep the list active and = encouraging to other builders, as well as adding ideas to the archives. The archives have been a gold mine of info for me over the years, = sometimes even reading my own comments to give me an insight as to "what = the hell was I thinking" when I came up with some failed concept. But = more often than not as a source of info for more successful concepts. =20 Todd C-FSTB RV9 13Bturbo =20 On Fri., Jul. 10, 2020, 11:21 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = , > wrote: Flyrotary Forum Members, =20 I appreciate the response of all members to my posts = regarding the possible production of an "Aircraft Specific Alloy 13B/20B = combination Engine mount/Side plate" that would be a direct bolt in to a Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna 1" = engine mount ring.............. There are several aftermarket companies = currently producing all the alloy side housings that are necessary for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto = Racing crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce at this time is = a front side housing specifically designed with the proper mount points to be essentially bolt in to any aircraft = that normally be powered by any of several versions of the Lycoming O/IO = 540 engine..........The current plan is to use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its water pump and ignition pickup = and retain the stock oil pump........This mount could also be used many = other aircraft that normally would use=20 the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount = ring (currently available from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a 13BREW = engine (all alloy if wanted)........=20 =20 This is a project that I have a personal interest in and at = this time cannot report a time schedule for its completion.........I = have committed for the first "Beta" housing for testing=20 and will keep the forum appraised of progress...........The forum is = probably tired of me cluttering it up with this subject so for the time = being any of the group that have an interest in this project or have any additional questions or concerns may E mail me = directly if they choose..........Thanks for listening........... =20 Best Regards Kelly Troyer =20 =20 =20 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:50 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: Guys,=20 More info on the "Glasair 3" in Europe with "Mistral" 20 B based = rotary engine......... =20 https://www.kitplanes.com/more-mistral-magic/ =20 =20 Kelly Troyer =20 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: Lynn,=20 Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate is.........."Mistrall" took = oil from the normally plugged oil galley on the side of the front iron = to a machined "O" ringed alloy plate that incorporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I = think) to bypass the oil cooler until oil temp got up to about 150 = degrees F........I have this plate also.......... =20 Kelly Troyer =20 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: Marc & Lynn=20 Yes the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like what = my 13BREW will look like except it will have "Racing Beat" alloy center = & rear housings and will be "P" ported........Their early 13B engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes = Lynn this is the early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount = casting and front cover into one unit that bolts to the=20 front iron and incorporates the water pump and mount for the alternator = plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It also had = provisions for a drive for a vacuum pump.........I did not get the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with my = housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal Type 1" Lycoming = O/IO 320-360 mount ring......... =20 Thanks, Kelly Troyer =20 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com = > wrote: In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a = cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron = (black plate).............LEH =20 In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, = flyrotary@lancaironline.net = writes:=20 =20 =20 Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great interest = back when. Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my = hard drive, I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where = they came from originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a = 13B named =E2=80=98Steve=E2=80=99. Hopefully these pics get thru-there = is a picture limit on this list that makes it difficult to send larger = files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of them I have just of the = backplate, what is the MB/KB limit here? Marc =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side = Housing =20 Le Roux, Thanks for digging this up as it will answer a lot of questions from = the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side = housing / accessory drive that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorporated = the "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears" for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine = mount..........This is what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting to come = up with a less expensive version of this plate but without all the = accessory drives and using the stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup = (electric airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand = words.......... Thanks Again, Kelly troyer=20 =20 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach = breytenbachleroux@gmail.com = > = wrote: Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in = April 2011 =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-02-B/MISTR= AL_%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg =20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MISTR= AL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg =20 =20 =20 =20 Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral = mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and = mounting Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111 =20 https://www.kitplanes.com/mistral-magic/=20 =20 Le Roux =20 On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: Dave & Charlie, =20 Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on = front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used = the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know = this as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I = have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P = port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in = tractor A/C) side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its = mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded into = a cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest = "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had = mount points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type = Mount) and only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the = engine.........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the = engines they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and = all their parts were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my = engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed to = be certifiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing = trail..........So they made engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock = "Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for aircraft = use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that = were not adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps = will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines.......... =20 Best, Kelly Troyer =20 =20 On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer > wrote: Charlie and Mark, Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side housing is what would be = replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that = replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda = eccentric shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline = and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O/IO 540 30 = degree "Dyna1" mount system............. =20 Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the rear = dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the need for = .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the = O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over = 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much = lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used = alloy housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have = never heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their = engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven = one way or another in actual use..........IMHO Best Kelly Troyer =20 On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net = > wrote: Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b = designs? M Sent from my iPad =20 On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com = > wrote: =20 Kelly, The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not = worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot = and cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is = no way to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to = "work" and move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed = member is not recommended with the rotary. If you were to do this = anyway I wouldn't do it without a stud kit. You will have better results = using a bed mount. YMMV Bill Jepson =20 On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing = capability to produce an Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side = Housing machined from 7075-T6 with mount points that would allow these = engines to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as = used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO = 540 engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage = and at this point I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in this = product if and when it is produced...........I personally am interested = this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are = capable of truly amazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo = boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or = Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in = engine........... The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing almost 400 = mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual = hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's = pulling 1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good reliability..........A = 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing hard.........IMHO Would like to hear what interest there may be in this product if and = when it may be produced............Or any comments pro or = con.............. =20 =20 =20 Kelly Troyer =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D658EE.1A337910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kelly,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yeah and the bloke in = Brisbane is worse!!=C2=A0 Promaz=C2=A0 want $350 an hour for their CNC = while in Sydney it gets down to $75 an hour!=C2=A0 Hence the cost of = what should be half what it is.=C2=A0 Been round this track many times = and just gave up as too old to justify a CNC machine at $250,000.=C2=A0 = Therefore we pay for someone else to buy one.

BRG,=C2=A0 = Neil.

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 12, = 2020 10:09 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side = Housing-pics

 

Neil,

  = You are correct about "Pro-Maz'"...........They appear to have = quality products but they are not cheap..........Here is = Link

to their = website...........http://promaz.com.au/

 

Best ,

Kelly Troyer

 

On = Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 6:51 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Marc & Ernest,

    Ernest first.............Nothing = available to buy at this time and no guarantee there will ever = be..........Backplate / Mount is in CAD design stage...........The plate = for a stock engine is not the = problem..........There

are = several companies already producing alloy replacement side plates (For = an all alloy 13B/20B)..........What we are try to do is produce a front = sideplate (Firewall side in an aircraft) that incorporates the = four

(4) mounting points = that will allow the engine to be a "Bolt up" to the Lycoming = O/IO 540 mount ring using "30 degree , Dyna 1" mount cushions = as used by "Vans" RV10 and any other aircraft = (Experimental)

that = normally use any of the several variations O/IO 540 = engines..........As stated previously this mount ring is available = (Just the Ring) from "Vans" currently for about = $150.00.........I have already = purchased 

two of = these...........Let it be known that some Lycoming O/IO 540 engines used = a "18 degree , Dyna 2" mount........We currently have no plans = to produce Blackplate / Mounts for the "Dyna 2" = mount........The

"Mount Ears" of The O-540 are bolted = on to the crankcase and oil sump so the two different types (Dyna 1 = & Dyna 2) are removable and = replaceable......... 

 

    Marc the bolt patterns for all the = various front covers are virtually the same with some slight = variations  in bolt spacing and the number of = bolts..........We  are currently planning on the use of the = RX8 Renesis

2004-2008 = front cover and water pump and it looks like it will fit within the = confines of the O/IO 540 mount ring by removing the alternator boss = which stands on top of the water pump housing..............This = will

necessitate = relocating the alternator..........This has not been worked out at this = time.........The RX8 Renesis 2009-2011 front cover could be used also = (We Think) but it is more complicated and incorporates = the 

oil filter = and we think a larger remote filter is a better option...........Also = the current plan is to take oil directly from the oil pump (As = "Mistral" did) from the oil galley on the side of the front = housing (Plugged on the 

stock side housing) directly to the oil = filter and oil cooler instead of out the front cover (A weak = point particularly in early covers at high oil = pressure).............As far as front covers it would be simple to = order bolt 

spacing = for what ever cover you want (But) Here is the = problem...............The early water pump alloy housings and = cast iron water pumps are not only heavy but they do not fit in the = confines of the O/IO 540

mount ring and if the use of the 1986-1991 13B/20B = ignition is planned we are not sure at this time if it would clear the = mount ring ........That is the reason for use of the RX8 Renesis front = cover (which requires 

the use of a crankshaft trigger ignition).........We = do not anticipate producing a plate to fit the RX8 Renesis engine = so anything we produce  will be only for the 13B/20B = engines...........All good questions and = we 

are trying to = come up with best solutions for several  possible = problems.........

 

  Just as a note of interest I have purchased a = non airworthy (Junk)  O-540 crankcase and currently have the = "Vans" O-540 mount ring bolted to it........This was done so = we could accurately place the Eccentric

shaft centerline of the 13B/20B in the exact same = place of the O-540 crankshaft centerline within the confines of the = mount ring and judge how everything will fit...........  =   

 

Best,

Kelly Troyer      =  

 

On = Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:08 PM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Just remember there must be an = option on the bolt pattern, to fit the what?? The 13Brew tt, the = Renesis, the 20B (only has the non-crankshaft trigger ign type = distributor arrangement, and which was only offered in the AT version), = etc. I am not sure what the bolt differences are in them, but I bet = there are some! So what water pump and alternator provisions, as well as = the trigger/distributor needs to be made clear as to = requirements.

I think that place in Australia = offers aluminum side housings, abeit with some sort of embedded wear = surface (??? important), and maybe others. I=E2=80=99ve seen them = offered before.

 

Marc

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 10:25 = PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda = Front Side Housing-pics

 <= /o:p>

Charlie,

  =   After rereading your post I missed your point of using a = "Mistral Type" bolt on housing to the Renesis iron = plate............Now that is something that could be = doable...........Just for your

information&= nbsp;my "Mistral" bolt on "Mount/Housing" will bolt = on to the "Renesis" front iron housing..........I do not have = a "Renesis" front housing in front of me but I believe it = is a little thicker

than a = 13B/20B front housing because of the exhaust port..........This extra = thickness would probably make modifications to the oil pump gear , = spacers , and pulley stack necessary........

  = Something to investigate !!..........

Best

Kelly = Troyer  

 <= /o:p>

On Fri, Jul = 10, 2020 at 10:07 PM Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com> = wrote:

Charlie,

 Intere= sting point.........First question off the top of my head is how well = would alloy Renesis side plates tolerate exhaust gas going through them = and could stainless or inconel exhaust

inserts as = in the 13B/20B be put in them (cost being a factor also) = ?.............All the aftermarket alloy side plates being produced to my = knowledge are for the 13B/20B = engines..........I

suppose = ;it could be done but as of now all the aftermarket auto performance = people using alloy side plates use the 13B/20B platform...........Food = for thought though.........

 <= /o:p>

Best 

Kelly = Troyer  

 <= /o:p>

On Fri, Jul = 10, 2020 at 8:01 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Hi = Kelly,

I hate to muddy the waters, but I wonder how much interest = there would be in a Renesis plate vs the 13B plate. My personal = preference is to use the Renesis, for various reasons. My wish list = would be for a Mistral-style accessory housing, but made for the = Renesis.

Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd said, any = and all info is welcome.

Charlie

On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM, = Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = wrote:

  = Todd,

  =   Thanks for the comment and it is well received............Unless = I hear otherwise from a majority of the group I will then keep all = further discussion on the group forum...............As a = further

note if and = when I acquire the mount/backplate under discussion I will probably add = it to my "P" port 13BREW that I mentioned instead of the = "Mistral" mount/housing that I have......I = have 

a 20B but = it would be seriously too much power and weight for my "Dyke = Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy = housings..........

 <= /o:p>

Thanks = Again,

Kelly = Troyer

 <= /o:p>

On Fri, Jul = 10, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Hi Kelly; =

  =  This mount idea is an excellent idea worth pursuing as a practical = engine mount is a major roadblock to many builders that are otherwise = considering alternative engines.

  = While I'm not currently in the market for one myself, so I hadn't raised = my hand to say "count me in", but the future could bring = another project where I would be happy to have that availability of a = ready to go engine mount.

  =  However I'd like to encourage you to keep all further discussion = of this topic online. I'd much rather simply delete a conversation that = I may not have an interest in, than see the list with no discussion at = all as we've seen all too often in the recent past. Any and all = discussion pertaining to rotary powered aircraft helps to keep the list = active and encouraging to other builders, as well as adding ideas to the = archives.

  The = archives have been a gold mine of info for me over the years, sometimes = even reading my own comments to give me an insight as to "what the = hell was I thinking" when I came up with some failed concept. But = more often than not as a source of info for more successful = concepts.

 <= /o:p>

Todd

C-FSTB<= /o:p>

RV9 = 13Bturbo

 <= /o:p>

On Fri., = Jul. 10, 2020, 11:21 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Flyrotary&nb= sp;Forum Members,  

  =            I appreciate the response = of all members to my posts regarding the possible production of an = "Aircraft Specific Alloy 13B/20B combination Engine mount/Side = plate"

that would = be a direct bolt in to a Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna = 1" engine mount ring.............. There are several = aftermarket companies currently producing all the = alloy

side = housings that are necessary for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto = Racing crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce at this time is = a front side housing specifically designed

with the = proper mount points to be essentially bolt in to any aircraft that = normally be powered by any of several versions of the Lycoming O/IO = 540 engine..........The current plan is to

use the RX8 = Renesis front cover with its water pump and ignition pickup and = retain the stock oil pump........This mount could also be used many = other aircraft that normally would = use 

the = Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring = (currently available from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a = 13BREW engine (all alloy if = wanted)........ 

 <= /o:p>

  =           This is a project that I have a = personal interest in and at this time cannot report a time schedule for = its completion.........I have committed for the first "Beta" = housing for testing 

and will = keep the forum appraised of progress...........The forum is probably = tired of me cluttering it up with this subject so for the time being any = of the group that have an interest in

this = project or have any additional questions or concerns may = E mail me directly if they choose..........Thanks for = listening...........

 <= /o:p>

Best = Regards

Kelly = Troyer        

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Thu, Jul = 9, 2020 at 5:50 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Guys, =

  =   More info on the "Glasair 3" in Europe with = "Mistral" 20 B based rotary = engine.........

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

Kelly = Troyer

 <= /o:p>

On Thu, Jul = 9, 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Lynn, =

  =   Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate = is.........."Mistrall" took oil from the normally plugged oil = galley on the side of the front iron to a machined "O" ringed = alloy plate that

incorporated= the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I = think)  to bypass the oil cooler until oil temp got up to = about 150 degrees F........I have this plate = also..........

 <= /o:p>

Kelly = Troyer

 <= /o:p>

On Thu, Jul = 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Marc & = Lynn

  =  Yes the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench = is like what my 13BREW will look like except it will have = "Racing Beat" alloy center & rear housings and will be = "P" ported........Their

early 13B = engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lynn this is = the early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and front = cover into one unit that bolts to the 

front iron = and incorporates the water pump and mount for the alternator plus = the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It also had provisions = for a drive for a vacuum pump.........I did not = get

the gears = for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with my = housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal Type = 1" Lycoming O/IO 320-360 mount = ring.........

 <= /o:p>

Thanks,=

Kelly = Troyer

 <= /o:p>

On Thu, Jul = 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

In = both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a = cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron = (black plate).............LEH

&nb= sp;

In a = message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: =

 <= /o:p>

 

Great stuff. I saw and read = that Kitplanes article with great interest back = when.

Here=E2=80=99s some conical = mounting back plate pictures I found on my hard drive, I believe they = are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where they came from originally = (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named = =E2=80=98Steve=E2=80=99. Hopefully these pics get thru-there is a = picture limit on this list that makes it difficult to send larger files, = so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of them I have just of the backplate, what = is the MB/KB limit here?

Marc

 

From: Rotary = motors in aircraft
Sent: = Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM
To: Rotary = motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side = Housing

 

Le = Roux,

    Thanks for digging this = up as it will answer a lot of questions from the group..........This was = the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side housing / = accessory drive

that was headed for US & = European certification.........It incorporated the "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount = Ears" for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine = mount..........This is

what this thread is = all about..........My friend is attempting to come up with a less = expensive version of this plate but without all the = accessory drives and using the

stock RX = 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electric = airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand = words..........

Thanks = Again,

Kelly = troyer 

 

=

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread = you post in April = 2011

 

 

  http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Messag= e/54713-03-B/MISTRAL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg &nb= sp;

 

 <= /o:p>

 

Dating back to April = 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral mounting here you post = some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and = mounting

Here is the article of Paul = Janssens Glasair = 111

 

 

Le= Roux

 

On = Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

  Dave & = Charlie,

 

&= nbsp;   Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines = used the bolt on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had = mount points that used the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal = Type 1" mount ring.........I know = this

as fact as I am the proud owner of one = of these alloy housings.........I have all the housings and parts to = build a bastardized part alloy "P port" 13BREW = engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor = A/C)

side housing because I was not = comfortable having my engine hang on its mounts from a housing attached = only by several 6 mm bolts threaded into a cast alloy "Racing = Beat" front side housing.........All the = other

housings (Center & Rear) are alloy = "Racing Beat"..........The earliest "Mistral" 20B = engines also used this alloy front cover but also had mount points at = the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) = and

only used the bottom two mount points on = the accessory end of the engine.........At that point in = "Mistral's" engine development the engines they sold to = experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their = parts

were directly adaptable to a stock = "Mazda" engine (such as my engine)............The last = iteration of their engines were designed to be certifiable so they = had to have a verifiable manufacturing trail..........So they = made

engineering changes in their parts to = eliminate things about the stock "Mazda" parts that = were not needed or were improvements for aircraft use..........Most = of the last versions of their engines had parts that were = not

adaptable to the stock "Mazda" = engines...........Long winded but perhaps will enlighten some about the = "Mistral" series of = engines..........

 

=

Best,

Kelly Troyer  =  

 

On Wed, = Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com> = wrote:

Charlie and Mark,

  =    Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side = housing is what would be replaced with an aluminum housing with built in = mount points that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate = the Mazda eccentric

shaft centerline in the = same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline and make the Mazda a = bolt in to any aircraft using the O/IO 540 30 degree = "Dyna1" mount = system.............

 

     Mark I am well aware of the different = opinions on using the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is = correct about the need for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate = and/or rigid oil sump to

further resistance = to torsional twisting..........But remember that the O/IO 540 family of = engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over 500 lbs for some = turbo models are all using this mount system = and

that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with = reduction drive) will be much lighter..........I do not believe that the = "Mistral" 13B or 20B used alloy housings for other than the = front accessory housing and I have = never

heard if they used the oversize .500 = inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their engines..........This is probably a = question that will have to be proven one way or another in actual = use..........IMHO

Best

Kelly = Troyer

 

On Wed, = Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their = 13b and 20b designs?

M

Sent from my = iPad

 

On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William = Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

 <= /p>

Kelly,

The "dynafocal" type = mount has been tried on the rotary but has not worked out well..One of = the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot and cold side. Various = methods have been used to limit this but there is no way to eliminate it = completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" and = move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not = recommended with the rotary. If  you were to do this anyway I = wouldn't do it without a stud kit. You will have better = results using a bed mount. YMMV

Bill = Jepson

 

On = Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

I am in = contact with a person with the design and = manufacturing capability = to produce an Aviation = Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing machined from = 7075-T6 with mount points = that would allow these engines

to be a bolt in to the engine = mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" = RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 = engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and = at this

point I am a go between to = see if there would be any interest in this product if and when it = is produced...........I personally am interested this side = plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable of = truly

amazing power levels both = naturally aspirated and turbo boosted.........The 20B would make the = Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an = easy 300+ hp almost bolt in = engine...........

The "Reno" Sport = Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing almost 400 = mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual = hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's = pulling

1200 hp out in the auto = racing world with good reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is = not even breathing = hard.........IMHO

Would like to hear what = interest there may be in this product if and when it may be = produced............Or any comments pro or = con..............  

 

 

Kelly = Troyer

=


 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /p>


 

 

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