X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=QVyk3i9c2HulCahbJoCTpA==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=Jk_71c6_AAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=eKhGbfrDAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=WF2jtXWlSryNBFP5FloA:9 a=wvoGCKr9gaA_fAVb:21 a=SkE8CW2LpJ4S24Yx:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=YRiVctRGIxN0S-8QQAkA:9 a=3dS2Wt951jIfuTGp:21 a=nk5R5XI-cQPu9Dr8:21 a=iucZ4_B4tIe9zkKw:21 a=G_nc3340XbsW-ukfCUQV:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=UDUmxsVa2tvOjJGaeGiU:22 a=Ry2eTNIdGMwtTGQdmMb7:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lf1-f66.google.com ([209.85.167.66] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 518969 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 20:12:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.167.66; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lf1-f66.google.com with SMTP id y18so5258146lfh.11 for ; 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Sat, 11 Jul 2020 17:11:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 19:09:17 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000062de0c05aa336b1e" --00000000000062de0c05aa336b1e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neil, You are correct about "Pro-Maz'"...........They appear to have quality products but they are not cheap..........Here is Link to their website...........http://promaz.com.au/ Best , Kelly Troyer On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 6:51 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Marc & Ernest, > Ernest first.............Nothing available to buy at this time and no > guarantee there will ever be..........Backplate / Mount is in CAD design > stage...........The plate for a stock engine is not the > problem..........There > are several companies already producing alloy replacement side plates (Fo= r > an all alloy 13B/20B)..........What we are try to do is produce a front > sideplate (Firewall side in an aircraft) that incorporates the four > (4) mounting points that will allow the engine to be a "Bolt up" to the > Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring using "30 degree , Dyna 1" mount cushions as > used by "Vans" RV10 and any other aircraft (Experimental) > that normally use any of the several variations O/IO 540 > engines..........As stated previously this mount ring is available (Just > the Ring) from "Vans" currently for about $150.00.........I have already > purchased > two of these...........Let it be known that some Lycoming O/IO 540 engine= s > used a "18 degree , Dyna 2" mount........We currently have no plans to > produce Blackplate / Mounts for the "Dyna 2" mount........The > *"Mount Ears"* of The O-540 are bolted on to the crankcase and oil > sump so the two different types (Dyna 1 & Dyna 2) are removable and > replaceable......... > > Marc the bolt patterns for all the various front covers are virtually > the same with some slight variations in bolt spacing and the number of > bolts..........We are currently planning on the use of the RX8 Renesis > 2004-2008 front cover and water pump and it looks like it will fit within > the confines of the O/IO 540 mount ring by removing the alternator boss > which stands on top of the water pump housing..............This will > necessitate relocating the alternator..........This has not been worked > out at this time.........The RX8 Renesis 2009-2011 front cover could be > used also (We Think) but it is more complicated and incorporates the > oil filter and we think a larger remote filter is a better > option...........Also the current plan is to take oil directly from the o= il > pump (As "Mistral" did) from the oil galley on the side of the front > housing (Plugged on the > stock side housing) directly to the oil filter and oil cooler instead of > out the front cover (A weak point particularly in early covers at high oi= l > pressure).............As far as front covers it would be simple to order > bolt > spacing for what ever cover you want (*But) Here is the problem*.........= ......The > early water pump alloy housings and cast iron water pumps are not only > heavy but they do not fit in the confines of the O/IO 540 > mount ring and if the use of the 1986-1991 13B/20B ignition is planned we > are not sure at this time if it would clear the mount ring ........That i= s > the reason for use of the RX8 Renesis front cover (which requires > the use of a crankshaft trigger ignition).........We do not > anticipate producing a plate to fit the RX8 Renesis engine so anything we > produce will be only for the 13B/20B engines...........All good question= s > and we > are trying to come up with best solutions for several possible > problems......... > > Just as a note of interest I have purchased a non airworthy (Junk) > O-540 crankcase and currently have the "Vans" O-540 mount ring bolted to > it........This was done so we could accurately place the Eccentric > shaft centerline of the 13B/20B in the exact same place of the O-540 > crankshaft centerline within the confines of the mount ring and judge how > everything will fit........... > > Best, > Kelly Troyer > > On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:08 PM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Just remember there must be an option on the bolt pattern, to fit the >> what?? The 13Brew tt, the Renesis, the 20B (only has the non-crankshaft >> trigger ign type distributor arrangement, and which was only offered in = the >> AT version), etc. I am not sure what the bolt differences are in them, b= ut >> I bet there are some! So what water pump and alternator provisions, as w= ell >> as the trigger/distributor needs to be made clear as to requirements. >> >> I think that place in Australia offers aluminum side housings, abeit wit= h >> some sort of embedded wear surface (??? important), and maybe others. I= =E2=80=99ve >> seen them offered before. >> >> >> >> Marc >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 10:25 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B >> Mazda Front Side Housing-pics >> >> >> >> Charlie, >> >> After rereading your post I missed your point of using a "Mistral >> Type" bolt on housing to the Renesis iron plate............Now that is >> something that could be doable...........Just for your >> >> information my "Mistral" bolt on "Mount/Housing" will bolt on to the >> "Renesis" front iron housing..........I do not have a "Renesis" front >> housing in front of me but I believe it is a little thicker >> >> than a 13B/20B front housing because of the exhaust port..........This >> extra thickness would probably make modifications to the oil pump gear , >> spacers , and pulley stack necessary........ >> >> Something to investigate !!.......... >> >> Best >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 10:07 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: >> >> Charlie, >> >> Interesting point.........First question off the top of my head is how >> well would alloy Renesis side plates tolerate exhaust gas going through >> them and could stainless or inconel exhaust >> >> inserts as in the 13B/20B be put in them (cost being a factor also) >> ?.............All the aftermarket alloy side plates being produced to my >> knowledge are for the 13B/20B engines..........I >> >> suppose it could be done but as of now all the aftermarket auto >> performance people using alloy side plates use the 13B/20B >> platform...........Food for thought though......... >> >> >> >> Best >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Hi Kelly, >> >> I hate to muddy the waters, but I wonder how much interest there would b= e >> in a Renesis plate vs the 13B plate. My personal preference is to use th= e >> Renesis, for various reasons. My wish list would be for a Mistral-style >> accessory housing, but made for the Renesis. >> >> Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd said, any and all info is >> welcome. >> >> Charlie >> >> On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Todd, >> >> Thanks for the comment and it is well received............Unless I >> hear otherwise from a majority of the group I will then keep all further >> discussion on the group forum...............As a further >> >> note if and when I acquire the mount/backplate under discussion I will >> probably add it to my "P" port 13BREW that I mentioned instead of the >> "Mistral" mount/housing that I have......I have >> >> a 20B but it would be seriously too much power and weight for my "Dyke >> Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy housings.......... >> >> >> >> Thanks Again, >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Hi Kelly; >> >> This mount idea is an excellent idea worth pursuing as a practical >> engine mount is a major roadblock to many builders that are otherwise >> considering alternative engines. >> >> While I'm not currently in the market for one myself, so I hadn't >> raised my hand to say "count me in", but the future could bring another >> project where I would be happy to have that availability of a ready to g= o >> engine mount. >> >> However I'd like to encourage you to keep all further discussion of >> this topic online. I'd much rather simply delete a conversation that I m= ay >> not have an interest in, than see the list with no discussion at all as >> we've seen all too often in the recent past. Any and all discussion >> pertaining to rotary powered aircraft helps to keep the list active and >> encouraging to other builders, as well as adding ideas to the archives. >> >> The archives have been a gold mine of info for me over the years, >> sometimes even reading my own comments to give me an insight as to "what >> the hell was I thinking" when I came up with some failed concept. But mo= re >> often than not as a source of info for more successful concepts. >> >> >> >> Todd >> >> C-FSTB >> >> RV9 13Bturbo >> >> >> >> On Fri., Jul. 10, 2020, 11:21 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com, < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Flyrotary Forum Members, >> >> I appreciate the response of all members to my posts >> regarding the possible production of an *"Aircraft Specific Alloy >> 13B/20B combination Engine mount/Side plate"* >> >> that would be a direct bolt in to a* Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna >> 1" engine mount ring.............. *There are several aftermarket >> companies currently producing all the alloy >> >> side housings that are necessary for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto >> Racing crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce at this time is= a >> front side housing specifically designed >> >> with the proper mount points to be essentially bolt in to any aircraft >> that normally be powered by any of several versions of the Lycoming O/IO >> 540 engine..........The current plan is to >> >> use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its water pump and ignition pickup >> and retain the stock oil pump........This mount could also be used many >> other aircraft that normally would use >> >> the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount >> ring (currently available from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a 13BREW >> engine (all alloy if wanted)........ >> >> >> >> This is a project that I have a personal interest in and at >> this time cannot report a time schedule for its completion.........I hav= e >> committed for the first "Beta" housing for testing >> >> and will keep the forum appraised of progress...........The forum is >> probably tired of me cluttering it up with this subject so for the time >> being any of the group that have an interest in >> >> this project or have any additional questions or concerns may E mail me >> directly if they choose..........Thanks for listening........... >> >> >> >> Best Regards >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:50 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Guys, >> >> More info on the "Glasair 3" in Europe with "Mistral" 20 B based >> rotary engine......... >> >> >> >> https://www.kitplanes.com/more-mistral-magic/ >> >> >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Lynn, >> >> Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate is.........."Mistrall" took >> oil from the normally plugged oil galley on the side of the front iron t= o a >> machined "O" ringed alloy plate that >> >> incorporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I >> think) to bypass the oil cooler until oil temp got up to about 150 degr= ees >> F........I have this plate also.......... >> >> >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Marc & Lynn >> >> Yes the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like what m= y >> 13BREW will look like except it will have "Racing Beat" alloy center & r= ear >> housings and will be "P" ported........Their >> >> early 13B engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lyn= n >> this is the early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and >> front cover into one unit that bolts to the >> >> front iron and incorporates the water pump and mount for the alternator >> plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It also had >> provisions for a drive for a vacuum pump.........I did not get >> >> the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with my >> housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal Type 1" Lycoming O/I= O >> 320-360 mount ring......... >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a >> cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron (blac= k >> plate).............LEH >> >> >> >> In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >> >> >> >> >> >> Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great interest >> back when. >> >> Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my h= ard >> drive, I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where they= came from >> originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named =E2= =80=98Steve=E2=80=99. >> Hopefully these pics get thru-there is a picture limit on this list that >> makes it difficult to send larger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of= them I >> have just of the backplate, what is the MB/KB limit here? >> >> Marc >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side >> Housing >> >> >> >> Le Roux, >> >> Thanks for digging this up as it will answer a lot of questions from >> the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side >> housing / accessory drive >> >> that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorporated >> the *"30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears"* for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine >> mount..........This is >> >> what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting to come u= p >> with a less expensive version of this plate but without all the >> accessory drives and using the >> >> stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup >> (electric airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words.......= ... >> >> Thanks Again, >> >> Kelly troyer >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach >> breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in >> April 2011 >> >> >> >> >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-02-B/MIST= RAL_%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg >> >> >> >> >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MIST= RAL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral >> mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and >> mounting >> >> Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111 >> >> >> >> https://www.kitplanes.com/mistral-magic/ >> >> >> >> Le Roux >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Dave & Charlie, >> >> >> >> Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on fron= t >> cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the >> Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know this >> >> as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I >> have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P por= t" >> 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/= C) >> >> side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its >> mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded into = a >> cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other >> >> housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest >> "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had moun= t >> points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) a= nd >> >> only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the >> engine.........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the engin= es >> they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their >> parts >> >> were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my >> engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed to = be >> certifiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing >> trail..........So they made >> >> engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock >> "Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for aircraft >> use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that w= ere >> not >> >> adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps >> will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines.......... >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: >> >> Charlie and Mark, >> >> Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side housing is what would be >> replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that replic= ate >> the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric >> >> shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline >> and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O/IO 540 30 degre= e >> "Dyna1" mount system............. >> >> >> >> Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the rear >> dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the need for >> .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to >> >> further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the >> O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over >> 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and >> >> that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much >> lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used all= oy >> housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have never >> >> heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their >> engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven >> one way or another in actual use..........IMHO >> >> Best >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b >> designs? >> >> M >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> >> On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> Kelly, >> >> The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not >> worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot a= nd >> cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no = way >> to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" a= nd >> move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not >> recommended with the rotary. If you were to do this anyway I wouldn't d= o >> it without a stud kit. You will have better results using a bed mount. Y= MMV >> >> Bill Jepson >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> *I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing **capab= ility >> to produce an **Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing >> machined from 7075-T6* *with mount points that would allow these engines= * >> >> *to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as >> used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 5= 40 >> engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and a= t >> this* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *point I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in this >> product if and when it is produced...........I personally am interested >> this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are >> capable of trulyamazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo >> boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancai= r's >> that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in >> engine...........The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are >> producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines >> that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are >> turbo 20B's pulling1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good >> reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing >> hard.........IMHOWould like to hear what interest there may be in this >> product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro or >> con..............* >> >> >> >> >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --00000000000062de0c05aa336b1e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Neil,
=C2=A0 You are correct about &q= uot;Pro-Maz'"...........They appear to have quality products but t= hey are not cheap..........Here is Link
to their website.........= ..http://promaz.com.au/
Best=C2=A0,
Kelly Troyer

On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at= 6:51 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Marc & Ernest,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ernest=C2=A0first.............Nothin= g available to buy at this time and no guarantee there will ever be........= ..Backplate / Mount is in CAD design stage...........The plate for a stock = engine is not the problem..........There
are several companies al= ready producing alloy replacement side plates (For an all alloy 13B/20B)...= .......What we are try to do is produce a front sideplate (Firewall side in= an aircraft) that incorporates the four
(4) mounting points that= will allow the engine to be a "Bolt up" to the Lycoming O/IO 540= mount ring using "30 degree , Dyna 1" mount cushions as used by = "Vans" RV10 and any other aircraft (Experimental)
that = normally=C2=A0use any of the several variations O/IO 540 engines..........A= s stated previously this mount ring=C2=A0is available (Just the Ring) from = "Vans" currently for about $150.00.........I have already purchas= ed=C2=A0
two of these...........Let it be known that some Lycomin= g O/IO 540 engines used a "18 degree , Dyna 2" mount........We cu= rrently have no plans to produce Blackplate / Mounts for the "Dyna 2&q= uot; mount........The
"Mount Ears" of The O-540 = are bolted on to the crankcase and oil sump=C2=A0so the two different types= (Dyna 1 & Dyna 2) are=C2=A0removable and replaceable.........=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marc the bolt patterns for all the var= ious front covers are virtually the same with some slight variations=C2=A0 = in bolt spacing and the number of bolts..........We=C2=A0 are currently=C2= =A0planning on the use of the RX8 Renesis
2004-2008 front cover a= nd water pump and it looks like it will fit within the confines of the O/IO= 540 mount ring by removing the alternator=C2=A0boss which stands on top of= the water pump=C2=A0housing..............This will
necessitate r= elocating the alternator..........This has not been worked out at this time= .........The RX8 Renesis 2009-2011 front cover could be used also (We Think= ) but it is more complicated=C2=A0and incorporates the=C2=A0
oil= =C2=A0filter and we think a larger remote filter is a better option........= ...Also the current plan is to take oil directly=C2=A0from the oil pump (As= "Mistral" did) from the oil galley on the side of the front hous= ing (Plugged=C2=A0on the=C2=A0
stock side housing) directly to th= e oil filter=C2=A0and oil cooler instead of out the front=C2=A0cover (A wea= k point particularly=C2=A0in early covers at high oil pressure)............= .As far as front covers it would=C2=A0be simple to order bolt=C2=A0
spacing for what ever=C2=A0cover you want (But) Here is the problem...............The early water pump=C2=A0alloy housings and cast iron wat= er pumps are not only heavy but they do not fit in the confines of the O/IO= 540
mount ring and if the use of the 1986-1991 13B/20B ignition = is planned we are not sure at this time if it would clear the mount ring ..= ......That is the reason for use of the RX8 Renesis front cover (which requ= ires=C2=A0
the use of a crankshaft trigger ignition).........We d= o not anticipate=C2=A0producing a plate to fit the RX8 Renesis engine so an= ything=C2=A0we produce=C2=A0 will be only for the 13B/20B engines..........= .All good questions and we=C2=A0
are trying to come up with best = solutions for several=C2=A0 possible problems.........

=
=C2=A0 Just as a note of interest I have purchased a non airworthy (Ju= nk)=C2=A0 O-540 crankcase and currently have the "Vans" O-540 mou= nt ring bolted to it........This was done so we could accurately place the = Eccentric
shaft centerline of the 13B/20B in the exact same place= of the O-540 crankshaft centerline within the confines of the mount ring a= nd judge how everything will fit...........=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
Best,
Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
<= /div>
O= n Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:08 PM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= > wrote:

Just remember there must be an option on the bolt patt= ern, to fit the what?? The 13Brew tt, the Renesis, the 20B (only has the no= n-crankshaft trigger ign type distributor arrangement, and which was only o= ffered in the AT version), etc. I am not sure what the bolt differences are= in them, but I bet there are some! So what water pump and alternator provi= sions, as well as the trigger/distributor needs to be made clear as to requ= irements.

I think that pl= ace in Australia offers aluminum side housings, abeit with some sort of emb= edded wear surface (??? important), and maybe others. I=E2=80=99ve seen the= m offered before.

=C2=A0

Ma= rc

=C2=A0

From: Rota= ry motors in aircraft
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 10:25 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subj= ect: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazd= a Front Side Housing-pics

= =C2=A0

Charlie,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 After rereading your post I = missed your point of using a "Mistral Type" bolt on housing to th= e Renesis iron plate............Now that is something that could=C2=A0be do= able...........Just for your

information=C2=A0my "Mistral" bolt on "Mount/Housing&qu= ot; will bolt on to the "Renesis" front iron housing..........I d= o not have a "Renesis" front housing in front=C2=A0of me but I be= lieve it is a little thicker

than a 13B/20B front housing because of the exhaust port..........This= extra thickness would=C2=A0probably make modifications to the oil pump gea= r , spacers , and pulley stack necessary........

=C2=A0 Something to investigate !!..........

Best

<= div>

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 10:07 PM Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com> wrote:<= /u>

Char= lie,

=C2=A0Interesting point..= .......First question off the top of my head is how well would alloy Renesi= s side plates tolerate exhaust gas going through them and could stainless o= r inconel exhaust

insert= s as in the 13B/20B be put in them (cost being a factor also) ?............= .All the aftermarket alloy side plates being produced to my knowledge are f= or the 13B/20B engines..........I

suppose=C2=A0it could be done but as of now all the aftermarket a= uto performance people using alloy side plates use the 13B/20B platform....= .......Food for thought though.........

=C2=A0

B= est=C2=A0

Kelly Troyer= =C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01= PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= /u>

Hi Kelly,
I hate to muddy the waters, but I wonder how much interest there woul= d be in a Renesis plate vs the 13B plate. My personal preference is to use = the Renesis, for various reasons. My wish list would be for a Mistral-style= accessory housing, but made for the Renesis.

Do keep posting any up= dates, though. Like Todd said, any and all info is welcome.

Charlie<= br>
On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote:

=C2=A0 Todd,

=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Thanks for the comment and it is well received............Unless I = hear otherwise from a majority of the group I will then keep all further di= scussion on the group forum...............As a further

note if and when I acquire the mount/backpla= te under discussion I will probably add it to my "P" port 13BREW = that I mentioned instead of the "Mistral" mount/housing that I ha= ve......I have=C2=A0

a 2= 0B but it would be seriously=C2=A0too much power and weight for my "Dy= ke Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy housings..........<= /u>

=C2=A0

Thanks Again,

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0

On Fri, Jul 1= 0, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Ke= lly;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This mount = idea is an excellent idea worth pursuing as a practical engine mount is a m= ajor roadblock to many builders that are otherwise considering alternative = engines.

=C2=A0 While I&= #39;m not currently in the market for one myself, so I hadn't raised my= hand to say "count me in", but the future could bring another pr= oject where I would be happy to have that availability of a ready to go eng= ine mount.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0= However I'd like to encourage you to keep all further discussion of thi= s topic online. I'd much rather simply delete a conversation that I may= not have an interest in, than see the list with no discussion at all as we= 've seen all too often in the recent past. Any and all discussion perta= ining to rotary powered aircraft helps to keep the list active and encourag= ing to other builders, as well as adding ideas to the archives.

=C2=A0 The archives have been a gol= d mine of info for me over the years, sometimes even reading my own comment= s to give me an insight as to "what the hell was I thinking" when= I came up with some failed concept. But more often than not as a source of= info for more successful concepts.

=C2=A0

Todd<= u>

C-FSTB

=

RV9 13Bturbo

=C2=A0

On Fri., Jul. 10, 2020, 11:21 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= > wrote:

Flyrotary=C2=A0Forum Members,=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0I appreciate=C2=A0the response of all members to my posts regarding the = possible production of an "Aircraft Specific Alloy 13B/20B combinat= ion Engine mount/Side plate"

that would be a direct bolt in to a Lycoming O/IO 540 &qu= ot;30 degree Dyna 1" engine mount ring.............. There are sev= eral aftermarket companies currently producing all the alloy<= u>

side housings that are necessar= y=C2=A0for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto Racing crowd.........What we a= re trying to do is produce at this time is a front side housing specificall= y designed

with the prop= er mount points to be essentially bolt in to any aircraft that normally be = powered by any of several=C2=A0versions of the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine....= ......The current plan is to

use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its water pump and ignition=C2=A0= pickup and retain the stock oil pump........This mount could also be used m= any other aircraft=C2=A0that normally would use=C2=A0

the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using th= e Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring (currently available from "Vans" f= or about $150.00) with a 13BREW engine (all alloy if wanted)........=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= This is a project that I have a personal interest in and at this time cann= ot report a time schedule for its completion.........I have committed for t= he first "Beta" housing for testing=C2=A0

=

and will keep the forum appraised of progress..= .........The forum is probably tired of me cluttering it up with this subje= ct so for the time being any of the group that have an interest in

this project or have any additio= nal questions or concerns may E=C2=A0mail=C2=A0me directly if they choose..= ........Thanks for listening...........

=C2=A0

B= est Regards

Kelly Troyer= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5= :50 PM Kelly Troyer k= eltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= /div>

Guys,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 More info on the "Glasa= ir 3" in Europe with "Mistral" 20 B based rotary engine.....= ....

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0

=

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Troye= r keltro@gmail.com <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Lynn,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Forgot to mention what the "Black&qu= ot; plate is.........."Mistrall" took oil from the normally plugg= ed oil galley on the side of the front iron to a machined "O" rin= ged alloy plate that

inc= orporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I= think)=C2=A0 to bypass the oil=C2=A0cooler until=C2=A0oil temp got up to a= bout 150 degrees F........I have this plate also..........

=C2=A0

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0

On Thu, Ju= l 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Marc = & Lynn

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes t= he photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like what my= 13BREW will look like=C2=A0except it will have "Racing Beat" all= oy center & rear housings and will be "P" ported........Their=

early 13B engines were = based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lynn this is the early mount = scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and front cover into one unit = that bolts to the=C2=A0

= front iron and incorporates the water pump=C2=A0and mount for the alternato= r plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It also had provis= ions for a drive for a vacuum=C2=A0pump.........I did not get=

the gears for this drive (less expens= e)(electric airplane) with my housing.........This casting mounts to a &quo= t;Dynafocal=C2=A0Type 1" Lycoming O/IO 320-360 mount ring.........<= /u>

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9= , 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

In both= pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a cast oil = pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron (black plate)....= .........LEH

= =C2=A0

In a message dat= ed 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:=

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great interest = back when.

Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate pictures I f= ound on my hard drive, I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t kn= ow where they came from originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One= is a 13B named =E2=80=98Steve=E2=80=99. Hopefully these pics get thru-ther= e is a picture limit on this list that makes it difficult to send larger fi= les, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of them I have just of the backplate, wha= t is the MB/KB limit here?

Marc

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in airc= raft
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= ;flyrotary= @lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20= B Mazda Front Side Housing

=C2=A0

Le Roux,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for d= igging=C2=A0this up as it will answer a lot of questions from the group....= ......This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side housi= ng / accessory drive

that was headed for US = & European certification.........It incorporated the "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears&quo= t; for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine mount..........This is<= u>

what this thread is all about..........My fr= iend is attempting=C2=A0to come up with a less expensive version of this=C2= =A0plate but without all the accessory=C2=A0drives and using the<= /u>

stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignit= ion pickup (electric airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand word= s..........

Thanks Again,

<= /div>

Kelly troyer=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenba= ch breyten= bachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our = group thread you post in April 2011

=C2=A0<= u>

http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/547= 13-02-B/MISTRAL_%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironli= ne.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MISTRAL_FINAL%20RearPlate_draw= ing%20(Large).jpg=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /p>

Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the= Mistral mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up= and mounting

Here is the article of Paul Ja= nssens Glasair 111

=C2=A0

Le Roux

=C2=A0

On Thu,= Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=C2=A0 Dave & Charlie,<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used=C2=A0= the bolt on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points t= hat used the Lycoming=C2=A0O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount = ring.........I know this

as fact as I am the= proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I have all the housings= and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P port" 13BREW engi= ne.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C)

side housing because I was not comfortable having my en= gine hang on its mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts = threaded=C2=A0into a cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.= ........All the other

housings (Center &= Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest "Mistra= l" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had mount poi= nts at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) and<= /u>

only used the bottom two mount points on the ac= cessory end of the engine.........At that=C2=A0point in "Mistral's= " engine development the engines they sold to experimenters were basic= ally "Mazda" engines and all their parts

<= div>

were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as= my engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed=C2= =A0to be certifiable so they had to have a verifiable=C2=A0manufacturing tr= ail..........So they made

engineering change= s in their parts to eliminate things about the stock "Mazda" part= s that were=C2=A0not needed or were improvements for aircraft use..........= Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that were not

adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines....= .......Long winded but perhaps will enlighten some about the "Mistral&= quot; series of engines..........

=C2= =A0

Best,

Kelly Troy= er=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com> wrote:

Charlie and Mark,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes Charlie the accessory=C2=A0"iron&q= uot;=C2=A0side housing is what would be replaced with an aluminum housing w= ith built in mount points that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears a= nd locate the Mazda eccentric

shaft centerli= ne in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline and make the Maz= da a bolt in to any aircraft using=C2=A0the O/IO 540 30 degree "Dyna1&= quot; mount system.............

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark I am well aware of the= different opinions on using the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda........= .Bill is correct about the need for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening p= late and/or rigid oil sump to

further resist= ance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the O/IO 540 family o= f engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over 500 lbs for some tu= rbo models are all using this mount system and

=

that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much li= ghter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B use= d alloy housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have neve= r

heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/= 12.5 mm studs in any of their engines..........This is probably a question = that will have to be proven one way or another in actual use..........IMHO<= u>

Best

Kelly Tr= oyer

=C2=A0

On Wed,= Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Wonder why Mistral used = dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b designs?

M

Sent from my iP= ad

=C2=A0

On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net> wrote:

=C2=A0<= /p>

Kelly,

The "dynafocal" type m= ount has been tried on the rotary but has not worked out well..One of the o= bvious rotary traits is that it has a hot and cold side. Various methods ha= ve been used to limit this but there is no way to eliminate it completely. = Because of this the engine tends to "work" and move around on the= studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not recommended with the r= otary. If=C2=A0 you were to do this anyway I wouldn't do it without a s= tud kit. You will have better results=C2=A0using a bed mount. YMMV

Bill Jepson

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com &l= t;flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing=C2= =A0capability to produce an=C2=A0= Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side=C2=A0Housing machined from 7075-= T6=C2=A0<= span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">with mount points that=C2=A0w= ould allow these engines

to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 de= gree number 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraf= t that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........This side plate is in the = preliminary design stage and at this

point I am a go between to see i= f there would be any interest in this product if and when it is=C2=A0produc= ed...........I personally am interested this side plate........As we on thi= s forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable of truly
amazing power level= s both naturally aspirated and turbo boosted.........The 20B would make the= Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 54= 0 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine...........

<= strong>The "Reno" = Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing almost 40= 0 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual hand= grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's pulling

1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good reliability..........A 20B= boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing hard.........IMHO=

Would like t= o hear what interest there may be in this product if and when it may be pro= duced............Or any comments pro or con..............=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kelly Tro= yer


=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0




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