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Charlie, After rereading your post I missed your point of using a "Mistral Type" bolt on housing to the Renesis iron plate............Now that is something that could be doable...........Just for your information my "Mistral" bolt on "Mount/Housing" will bolt on to the "Renesis" front iron housing..........I do not have a "Renesis" front housing in front of me but I believe it is a little thicker than a 13B/20B front housing because of the exhaust port..........This extra thickness would probably make modifications to the oil pump gear , spacers , and pulley stack necessary........ Something to investigate !!.......... Best Kelly Troyer Charlie, Interesting point.........First question off the top of my head is how well would alloy Renesis side plates tolerate exhaust gas going through them and could stainless or inconel exhaust inserts as in the 13B/20B be put in them (cost being a factor also) ?.............All the aftermarket alloy side plates being produced to my knowledge are for the 13B/20B engines..........I suppose it could be done but as of now all the aftermarket auto performance people using alloy side plates use the 13B/20B platform...........Food for thought though.........
Best Kelly Troyer
Hi Kelly,
I hate to muddy the waters, but I wonder how much interest there
would be in a Renesis plate vs the 13B plate. My personal
preference is to use the Renesis, for various reasons. My wish
list would be for a Mistral-style accessory housing, but made for
the Renesis.
Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd said, any and all
info is welcome.
Charlie
On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote:
Todd,
Thanks for the comment and it is well
received............Unless I hear otherwise from a majority
of the group I will then keep all further discussion on the
group forum...............As a further
note if and when I acquire the mount/backplate under
discussion I will probably add it to my "P" port 13BREW that
I mentioned instead of the "Mistral" mount/housing that I
have......I have
a 20B but it would be seriously too much power and weight
for my "Dyke Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy
housings..........
Thanks Again,
Kelly Troyer
Hi Kelly;
This mount idea is an excellent idea
worth pursuing as a practical engine mount is a major
roadblock to many builders that are otherwise
considering alternative engines.
While I'm not currently in the market
for one myself, so I hadn't raised my hand to say "count
me in", but the future could bring another project where
I would be happy to have that availability of a ready to
go engine mount.
However I'd like to encourage you to
keep all further discussion of this topic online. I'd
much rather simply delete a conversation that I may not
have an interest in, than see the list with no
discussion at all as we've seen all too often in the
recent past. Any and all discussion pertaining to rotary
powered aircraft helps to keep the list active and
encouraging to other builders, as well as adding ideas
to the archives.
The archives have been a gold mine of
info for me over the years, sometimes even reading my
own comments to give me an insight as to "what the hell
was I thinking" when I came up with some failed concept.
But more often than not as a source of info for more
successful concepts.
Todd
C-FSTB
RV9 13Bturbo
Flyrotary Forum Members,
I appreciate the response of all
members to my posts regarding the possible
production of an "Aircraft Specific Alloy
13B/20B combination Engine mount/Side plate"
that would be a direct bolt in to a Lycoming
O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna 1" engine mount
ring.............. There are several
aftermarket companies currently producing
all the alloy
side housings that are necessary for an all
alloy 13B/20B for the auto Racing
crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce
at this time is a front side housing specifically
designed
with the proper mount points to be essentially
bolt in to any aircraft that normally be powered
by any of several versions of the Lycoming O/IO
540 engine..........The current plan is to
use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its water
pump and ignition pickup and retain the stock oil
pump........This mount could also be used many
other aircraft that normally would use
the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the
Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring (currently available
from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a 13BREW
engine (all alloy if wanted)........
This is a project that I have a
personal interest in and at this time cannot
report a time schedule for its
completion.........I have committed for the first
"Beta" housing for testing
and will keep the forum appraised of
progress...........The forum is probably tired of
me cluttering it up with this subject so for the
time being any of the group that have an interest
in
this project or have any additional questions
or concerns may E mail me directly if they
choose..........Thanks for listening...........
Best Regards
Kelly Troyer
Guys,
More info on the "Glasair 3" in Europe
with "Mistral" 20 B based rotary
engine.........
Kelly Troyer
Lynn,
Forgot to mention what the
"Black" plate is.........."Mistrall"
took oil from the normally plugged oil
galley on the side of the front iron to
a machined "O" ringed alloy plate that
incorporated the oil filter and a
"Vernitherm" (a Continental part I
think) to bypass the oil cooler
until oil temp got up to about 150
degrees F........I have this plate
also..........
Kelly Troyer
Marc & Lynn
Yes the photo of the "Mistral"
13B engine on the bench is like what
my 13BREW will look like except it
will have "Racing Beat" alloy center
& rear housings and will be "P"
ported........Their
early 13B engines were based on
the 1986-1991 models.............Yes
Lynn this is the early mount scheme
that combines the alloy mount
casting and front cover into one
unit that bolts to the
front iron and incorporates the
water pump and mount for the
alternator plus the pickup for their
electronic ignition..........It also
had provisions for a drive for a
vacuum pump.........I did not get
the gears for this drive (less
expense)(electric airplane) with my
housing.........This casting mounts
to a "Dynafocal Type 1" Lycoming
O/IO 320-360 mount ring.........
Thanks,
Kelly Troyer
In
both pictures the mount
appears to attach to the front
iron. And to a cast oil pan
and a plate bolted to the left
side of the front iron (black
plate).............LEH
In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35
PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net
writes:
Great
stuff.
I saw and read that
Kitplanes article with
great interest back
when.
Here’s
some conical mounting
back plate pictures I
found on my hard
drive, I believe they
are all Mistral, but
don’t know where they
came from originally
(perhaps Paul Lamar’s
group) One
is a 13B named ‘Steve’. Hopefully these pics get
thru-there is a
picture limit on this
list that makes it
difficult to send
larger files, so I
didn’t send all of
them I have just of the backplate, what
is the MB/KB limit
here?
Marc
From:
Rotary motors in
aircraft
Sent:
Thursday, July 09,
2020 1:28 AM
To:
Rotary motors in
aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject:
[FlyRotary] Re:
Aviation Specific
13B/20B Mazda Front
Side Housing
Le Roux,
Thanks for
digging this up as
it will answer a
lot of questions
from the
group..........This
was the final
iteration of
"Mistrals" alloy
side housing /
accessory drive
that was headed
for US &
European
certification.........It
incorporated the "30
Degree/#1 Dyna
Mount Ears"
for the Lycoming
O/IO 540 engine
mount..........This
is
what this thread
is all
about..........My
friend is
attempting to come
up with a less
expensive version
of this plate but
without all the
accessory drives
and using the
stock RX 8 front
cover with stock
water pump and
ignition pickup
(electric
airplanes)............Photos
are worth a
thousand
words..........
Kelly : Just
saw this on the
archive on our
group thread you
post in April
2011
Only
the early
"Mistral"
13B/20B based
engines
used the bolt
on front
cover/accessory
drive alloy
cover that had
mount points
that used the
Lycoming O/IO
320-360
"Dynafocal
Type 1" mount
ring.........I
know this
as fact as
I am the proud
owner of one
of these alloy
housings.........I have all the housings and parts to build a
bastardized
part alloy "P
port" 13BREW
engine.........I
retained the
cast iron
front (Rear in
tractor A/C)
side
housing
because I was
not
comfortable
having my
engine hang on
its mounts
from a housing
attached only
by several 6
mm bolts
threaded into
a cast alloy
"Racing Beat"
front side
housing.........All
the other
housings
(Center &
Rear) are
alloy "Racing
Beat"..........The earliest "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy
front cover
but also had
mount points
at the redrive
end of the
engine
(Essentially a
Bed type
Mount) and
only used
the bottom two
mount points
on the
accessory end
of the
engine.........At
that point in
"Mistral's"
engine
development
the engines
they sold to
experimenters
were basically
"Mazda"
engines and
all their
parts
were
directly
adaptable to a
stock "Mazda"
engine (such
as my
engine)............The
last iteration
of their
engines were
designed to be
certifiable so
they had to
have a
verifiable manufacturing
trail..........So they made
engineering
changes in
their parts to
eliminate
things about
the stock
"Mazda" parts
that were not
needed or were
improvements
for aircraft
use..........Most
of the last
versions of
their engines
had parts that
were not
adaptable
to the stock
"Mazda"
engines...........Long
winded but
perhaps will
enlighten some
about the
"Mistral"
series of
engines..........
Yes
Charlie the
accessory "iron" side
housing is
what would be
replaced with
an aluminum
housing with
built in mount
points that
replicate the
Lycoming O/IO
540 mount ears
and locate the
Mazda
eccentric
shaft
centerline in
the same place
as the
Lycoming
crankshaft
centerline and
make the Mazda
a bolt in to
any aircraft
using the O/IO
540 30 degree
"Dyna1" mount
system.............
Mark I
am well aware
of the
different
opinions on
using the rear
dyna focal
mount on the
Mazda.........Bill
is correct
about the need
for .500
in/12.5mm
studs and a
stiffening
plate and/or
rigid oil sump
to
further
resistance to
torsional
twisting..........But
remember that
the O/IO 540
family of
engines with
firewall
forward
weights of
400+ to over
500 lbs for
some turbo
models are all
using this
mount system
and
that an all
alloy 13B or
20B (even with
reduction
drive) will be
much
lighter..........I
do not believe
that the
"Mistral" 13B
or 20B used
alloy housings
for other than
the front
accessory
housing and I
have never
heard if
they used the
oversize .500
inch/12.5 mm
studs in any
of their
engines..........This
is probably a
question that
will have to
be proven one
way or another
in actual
use..........IMHO
Wonder why
Mistral used
dynafocal type
mounting on
their 13b and
20b designs?
M
Kelly,
The
"dynafocal"
type mount has
been tried on
the rotary but
has not worked
out well..One
of the obvious
rotary traits
is that it has
a hot and cold
side. Various
methods have
been used to
limit this but
there is no
way to
eliminate it
completely.
Because of
this the
engine tends
to "work" and
move around on
the studs.
Using the
engine as a
stressed
member is not
recommended
with the
rotary. If
you were to do
this anyway I
wouldn't do it
without a stud
kit. You will
have better
results using
a bed mount.
YMMV
I
am in contact
with a person
with the
design and
manufacturing capability
to produce an Aviation
Specific
13B/20B Mazda
Front
Side Housing
machined from
7075-T6 with
mount points
that would
allow these
engines
to be
a bolt in to
the engine
mount ring (30
degree number
1 Dyna) as
used by the
"Vans" RV-10
and other
aircraft that
use the
Lycoming O/IO
540
engine..........This
side plate is
in the
preliminary
design stage
and at this
point I am a
go between to
see if there
would be any
interest in
this product
if and when it
is produced...........I personally am interested this side
plate........As
we on this
forum know
both the 13B /
20B are
capable of
truly
amazing power
levels both
naturally
aspirated and
turbo
boosted.........The
20B would make
the Van's
RV-10 ,
Glasair 3 or
Lancair's that
use the
Lycoming O/IO
540 an easy
300+ hp almost
bolt in
engine...........
The "Reno"
Sport Class
"Glasairs" and
Lancairs" are
producing
almost 400 mph
speeds using
dual turbo
Lycoming
IO-550 engines
that are
virtual hand
grenades
pulling over
700
hp...........There
are turbo
20B's pulling
1200 hp out in
the auto
racing world
with good
reliability..........A
20B boosted to
700+ hp is not
even breathing
hard.........IMHO
Would like to
hear what
interest there
may be in this
product if and
when it may be
produced............Or any comments pro or con..............
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