X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=GNns0A+hMfDB3dPTwgDFUw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=eKhGbfrDAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=5nrlwV1BCjUN66ueAfQA:9 a=hoP28GNErC-1aU-o:21 a=t2XGY2JbW-Ma1SL-:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=FrZzaB-ptmlRGG0FUCUA:9 a=hi1WEPPJFkB2QHo0:21 a=E-S71bYdBh4y7jyO:21 a=mX0tB2CD4KX0comD:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=UDUmxsVa2tvOjJGaeGiU:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f194.google.com ([209.85.208.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 516093 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 23:10:42 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.194; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f194.google.com with SMTP id h19so8519693ljg.13 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 20:10:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Yk7L+fWr5QUs7WrK3/mdQiBvDOLcu7Wgq5LoZLRcn14=; b=DigDPGqcf+YTNOx2OZRo5ejSQxfAgtBZCJOX/feYn1dON93uCTQzG+DX5N1TLIr/Xw bPuPdxSHcNmxR4PPYaRcJJ77gIAfss0Q8jKsFk9fzeq0/zdw1iMx66+lAncwc8HvirhV RJU3cI+pul+mIE9y+gcWFIoKeSQuNKoqhANnJRcQ12s4i72gkdwCBRkf4r3bzZzoU/U7 ZMRhaIIOQM3tDh1XJBXwGgcqbeM9AXsSBPLAVGjJg9YTB0K2Tj5pmd+BrS58Qt0GxN2C jWc5649XEF5rHDgI7qsLs0DlMi29RldMJgXqOHzNH6WDOezra6btDe0jxbwTZJpEsVLi AArA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Yk7L+fWr5QUs7WrK3/mdQiBvDOLcu7Wgq5LoZLRcn14=; b=KHW8BijfmyQhHqGG75tkltleArOuAlbPw4GwhSC3Oz248NGfallIWZYfJlceGbmN8v 3VVE7HrwsP5ea5hKFmHxayo4KxH1haCDHg1J9ujfydiGlnHMkLrhHOp7UHZptJ8E0dB6 s+2M7Cbzk9bT5qMAbxIdfgMh6+C3xbUYAh5hLfzR7uWawPn1gGC5m6w4Sp+qzJg1+hcf Kc9Qe0NPGPrAU4Fa61QpYnOBeS11uUlTmoOmQoiLz5L0psf4mIEQemS0ZNKh+POW/UNi 9P3kawJKM0U2y7sE5BHhIM/h5+TXpBkynJUX5UCkvriO8QzygNM7ryosOY2QnmYBMKjt epzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533aLTUCWNpbnarNEsdAkLzvVgmg8WxJz+vK4V1gtXszE7TODbBT txLWBuCZasNdFRQzeYrnc5hC8OXUmzeWP0VEvRbk9g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwhKN88LORl2JrNIgGDrJM9A9bH5eQHGqvAeXFCNRLEGbk7v7T7iIfZPFp4IHUHmm0PfK4d5RTO4UbYprD66jM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:1186:: with SMTP id w6mr23674629ljo.123.1594437025327; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 20:10:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 22:07:57 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000082ebc605aa21ccc3" --00000000000082ebc605aa21ccc3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charlie, Interesting point.........First question off the top of my head is how well would alloy Renesis side plates tolerate exhaust gas going through them and could stainless or inconel exhaust inserts as in the 13B/20B be put in them (cost being a factor also) ?.............All the aftermarket alloy side plates being produced to my knowledge are for the 13B/20B engines..........I suppose it could be done but as of now all the aftermarket auto performance people using alloy side plates use the 13B/20B platform...........Food for thought though......... Best Kelly Troyer On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Hi Kelly, > > I hate to muddy the waters, but I wonder how much interest there would be > in a Renesis plate vs the 13B plate. My personal preference is to use the > Renesis, for various reasons. My wish list would be for a Mistral-style > accessory housing, but made for the Renesis. > > Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd said, any and all info is > welcome. > > Charlie > > On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: > > Todd, > Thanks for the comment and it is well received............Unless I > hear otherwise from a majority of the group I will then keep all further > discussion on the group forum...............As a further > note if and when I acquire the mount/backplate under discussion I will > probably add it to my "P" port 13BREW that I mentioned instead of the > "Mistral" mount/housing that I have......I have > a 20B but it would be seriously too much power and weight for my "Dyke > Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy housings.......... > > Thanks Again, > Kelly Troyer > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Hi Kelly; >> This mount idea is an excellent idea worth pursuing as a practical >> engine mount is a major roadblock to many builders that are otherwise >> considering alternative engines. >> While I'm not currently in the market for one myself, so I hadn't >> raised my hand to say "count me in", but the future could bring another >> project where I would be happy to have that availability of a ready to g= o >> engine mount. >> However I'd like to encourage you to keep all further discussion of >> this topic online. I'd much rather simply delete a conversation that I m= ay >> not have an interest in, than see the list with no discussion at all as >> we've seen all too often in the recent past. Any and all discussion >> pertaining to rotary powered aircraft helps to keep the list active and >> encouraging to other builders, as well as adding ideas to the archives. >> The archives have been a gold mine of info for me over the years, >> sometimes even reading my own comments to give me an insight as to "what >> the hell was I thinking" when I came up with some failed concept. But mo= re >> often than not as a source of info for more successful concepts. >> >> Todd >> C-FSTB >> RV9 13Bturbo >> >> On Fri., Jul. 10, 2020, 11:21 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com, < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Flyrotary Forum Members, >>> I appreciate the response of all members to my posts >>> regarding the possible production of an *"Aircraft Specific Alloy >>> 13B/20B combination Engine mount/Side plate"* >>> that would be a direct bolt in to a* Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna >>> 1" engine mount ring.............. *There are several aftermarket >>> companies currently producing all the alloy >>> side housings that are necessary for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto >>> Racing crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce at this time i= s a >>> front side housing specifically designed >>> with the proper mount points to be essentially bolt in to any aircraft >>> that normally be powered by any of several versions of the Lycoming O/I= O >>> 540 engine..........The current plan is to >>> use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its water pump and ignition pickup >>> and retain the stock oil pump........This mount could also be used many >>> other aircraft that normally would use >>> the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount >>> ring (currently available from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a 13BREW >>> engine (all alloy if wanted)........ >>> >>> This is a project that I have a personal interest in and at >>> this time cannot report a time schedule for its completion.........I ha= ve >>> committed for the first "Beta" housing for testing >>> and will keep the forum appraised of progress...........The forum is >>> probably tired of me cluttering it up with this subject so for the time >>> being any of the group that have an interest in >>> this project or have any additional questions or concerns may E mail me >>> directly if they choose..........Thanks for listening........... >>> >>> Best Regards >>> Kelly Troyer >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:50 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Guys, >>>> More info on the "Glasair 3" in Europe with "Mistral" 20 B based >>>> rotary engine......... >>>> >>>> https://www.kitplanes.com/more-mistral-magic/ >>>> >>>> Kelly Troyer >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Lynn, >>>>> Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate is.........."Mistrall" >>>>> took oil from the normally plugged oil galley on the side of the fron= t iron >>>>> to a machined "O" ringed alloy plate that >>>>> incorporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I >>>>> think) to bypass the oil cooler until oil temp got up to about 150 d= egrees >>>>> F........I have this plate also.......... >>>>> >>>>> Kelly Troyer >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Marc & Lynn >>>>>> Yes the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like >>>>>> what my 13BREW will look like except it will have "Racing Beat" allo= y >>>>>> center & rear housings and will be "P" ported........Their >>>>>> early 13B engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes >>>>>> Lynn this is the early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount ca= sting >>>>>> and front cover into one unit that bolts to the >>>>>> front iron and incorporates the water pump and mount for the >>>>>> alternator plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It= also >>>>>> had provisions for a drive for a vacuum pump.........I did not get >>>>>> the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with my >>>>>> housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal Type 1" Lycoming= O/IO >>>>>> 320-360 mount ring......... >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Kelly Troyer >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < >>>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And >>>>>>> to a cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front = iron >>>>>>> (black plate).............LEH >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>>>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great >>>>>>> interest back when. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found on= my hard >>>>>>> drive, I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where= they came from >>>>>>> originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named = =E2=80=98Steve=E2=80=99. >>>>>>> Hopefully these pics get thru-there is a picture limit on this list= that >>>>>>> makes it difficult to send larger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send a= ll of them I have >>>>>>> just of the backplate, what is the MB/KB limit here? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marc >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM >>>>>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front >>>>>>> Side Housing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Le Roux, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for digging this up as it will answer a lot of questions >>>>>>> from the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" = alloy >>>>>>> side housing / accessory drive >>>>>>> >>>>>>> that was headed for US & European certification.........It >>>>>>> incorporated the *"30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears"* for the Lycoming >>>>>>> O/IO 540 engine mount..........This is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting to >>>>>>> come up with a less expensive version of this plate but without all= the >>>>>>> accessory drives and using the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup >>>>>>> (electric airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words..= ........ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks Again, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kelly troyer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach >>>>>>> breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post i= n >>>>>>> April 2011 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-02-B= /MISTRAL_%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B= /MISTRAL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral >>>>>>> mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up = and >>>>>>> mounting >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.kitplanes.com/mistral-magic/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Le Roux >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>>>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dave & Charlie, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on >>>>>>> front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that = used the >>>>>>> Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know = this >>>>>>> >>>>>>> as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy >>>>>>> housings.........I have all the housings and parts to build a basta= rdized >>>>>>> part alloy "P port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron = front >>>>>>> (Rear in tractor A/C) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on >>>>>>> its mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threa= ded into >>>>>>> a cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other >>>>>>> >>>>>>> housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The >>>>>>> earliest "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but= also >>>>>>> had mount points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Be= d type >>>>>>> Mount) and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the >>>>>>> engine.........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the = engines >>>>>>> they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all t= heir >>>>>>> parts >>>>>>> >>>>>>> were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my >>>>>>> engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designe= d to be >>>>>>> certifiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing >>>>>>> trail..........So they made >>>>>>> >>>>>>> engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the >>>>>>> stock "Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for a= ircraft >>>>>>> use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts t= hat were >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but >>>>>>> perhaps will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines..= ........ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kelly Troyer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Charlie and Mark, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side housing is what would be >>>>>>> replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that r= eplicate >>>>>>> the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric >>>>>>> >>>>>>> shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft >>>>>>> centerline and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O= /IO 540 >>>>>>> 30 degree "Dyna1" mount system............. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the >>>>>>> rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about th= e need >>>>>>> for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil su= mp to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that >>>>>>> the O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400= + to >>>>>>> over 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system = and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be >>>>>>> much lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20= B used >>>>>>> alloy housings for other than the front accessory housing and I hav= e never >>>>>>> >>>>>>> heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of >>>>>>> their engines..........This is probably a question that will have t= o be >>>>>>> proven one way or another in actual use..........IMHO >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kelly Troyer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < >>>>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20= b >>>>>>> designs? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> M >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < >>>>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kelly, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not >>>>>>> worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a = hot and >>>>>>> cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there i= s no way >>>>>>> to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "wo= rk" and >>>>>>> move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is = not >>>>>>> recommended with the rotary. If you were to do this anyway I would= n't do >>>>>>> it without a stud kit. You will have better results using a bed mou= nt. YMMV >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill Jepson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>>>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing **= capability >>>>>>> to produce an **Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing >>>>>>> machined from 7075-T6* *with mount points that would allow these >>>>>>> engines* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) >>>>>>> as used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycomin= g O/IO >>>>>>> 540 engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design st= age and >>>>>>> at this point I am a go between to see if there would be any intere= st in >>>>>>> this product if and when it is produced...........I personally am >>>>>>> interested this side plate........As we on this forum know both the= 13B / >>>>>>> 20B are capable of truly amazing power levels both naturally aspira= ted and >>>>>>> turbo boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair = 3 or >>>>>>> Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bol= t in >>>>>>> engine........... The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" a= re >>>>>>> producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 en= gines >>>>>>> that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There = are >>>>>>> turbo 20B's pulling 1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good >>>>>>> reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing >>>>>>> hard.........IMHO Would like to hear what interest there may be in = this >>>>>>> product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments p= ro or >>>>>>> con..............* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kelly Troyer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > <#m_8540064040712742331_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > --=20 Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --00000000000082ebc605aa21ccc3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Charlie,
=C2=A0Interesting point.........First questio= n off the top of my head is how well would alloy Renesis side plates tolera= te exhaust gas going through them and could stainless or inconel exhaust
inserts as in the 13B/20B be put in them (cost being a factor also)= ?.............All the aftermarket alloy side plates being produced to my k= nowledge are for the 13B/20B engines..........I
suppose=C2=A0it c= ould be done but as of now all the aftermarket auto performance people usin= g alloy side plates use the 13B/20B platform...........Food for thought tho= ugh.........

Best=C2=A0
Kelly Troyer=C2= =A0=C2=A0

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Hi Kelly,

I hate to muddy the waters, but I wonder how much interest there would be in a Renesis plate vs the 13B plate. My personal preference is to use the Renesis, for various reasons. My wish list would be for a Mistral-style accessory housing, but made for the Renesis.

Do keep posting any updates, though. Like Todd said, any and all info is welcome.

Charlie

On 7/10/2020 6:33 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote:
=20
=C2=A0 Todd,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the comment and it is well received............Unless I hear otherwise from a majority of the group I will then keep all further discussion on the group forum...............As a further
note if and when I acquire the mount/backplate under discussion I will probably add it to my "P" port 13BR= EW that I mentioned instead of the "Mistral" mount/housing th= at I have......I have=C2=A0
a 20B but it would be seriously=C2=A0too much power and weig= ht for my "Dyke Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy housings..........

Thanks Again,
Kelly Troyer

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:5= 5 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Hi Kelly;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This mount idea is an excellen= t idea worth pursuing as a practical engine mount is a major roadblock to many builders that are otherwise considering alternative engines.
=C2=A0 While I'm not currently in the m= arket for one myself, so I hadn't raised my hand to say "= ;count me in", but the future could bring another project whe= re I would be happy to have that availability of a ready to go engine mount.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0However I'd like to encour= age you to keep all further discussion of this topic online. I'd much rather simply delete a conversation that I may not have an interest in, than see the list with no discussion at all as we've seen all too often in the recent past. Any and all discussion pertaining to rotary powered aircraft helps to keep the list active and encouraging to other builders, as well as adding ideas to the archives.
=C2=A0 The archives have been a gold mine o= f info for me over the years, sometimes even reading my own comments to give me an insight as to "what the hel= l was I thinking" when I came up with some failed concep= t. But more often than not as a source of info for more successful concepts.

Todd
C-FSTB
RV9 13Bturbo

On Fri., Jul. 10, 2020, 11:21 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Flyrotary=C2=A0Forum Members,=C2=A0=C2= =A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I = appreciate=C2=A0the response of all members to my posts regarding the possible production of an "Aircraft Specific Alloy 13B/20B combination Engine mount/Side plate"
that would be a direct bolt in to a Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna 1" engine mount ring.............. There are several aftermarket companies currently producing all the alloy
side housings that are necessary=C2=A0for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto Racing crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce at this time is a front side housing specifically designed
with the proper mount points to be essentially bolt in to any aircraft that normally be powered by any of several=C2=A0versions of the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........The current plan is to
use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its water pump and ignition=C2=A0pickup and retain the stock oi= l pump........This mount could also be used many other aircraft=C2=A0that normally would use=C2=A0
the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ring (currently available from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a 13BRE= W engine (all alloy if wanted)........=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is = a project that I have a personal interest in and at this time cannot report a time schedule for its completion.........I have committed for the first "Beta" housing for testing=C2=A0
and will keep the forum appraised of progress...........The forum is probably tired of me cluttering it up with this subject so for the time being any of the group that have an interest in
this project or have any additional questions or concerns may E=C2=A0mail=C2=A0me directly if they choose..........Thanks for listening...........

Best Regards
Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0


On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:50 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Guys,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 More info on the "Glasair 3= " in Europe with "Mistral" 20 B based rotary engine.........


Kelly Troyer

On Thu, Jul 9= , 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Lynn,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate is.........."M= istrall" took oil from the normally plugged oil galley on the side of the front iron to a machined "O" ringed alloy plate= that
incorporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part = I think)=C2=A0 to bypass the oil=C2=A0cooler until=C2=A0oil temp got up to about 150 degrees F........I have this plate also..........

Kelly Troyer

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gm= ail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Marc & Lynn
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes the photo of the &q= uot;Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like what my 13BREW will look like=C2=A0except it will have "Racing Beat" alloy= center & rear housings and will be "P= " ported........Their
early 13B engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lynn this is the early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and front cover into one unit that bolts to the=C2=A0
front iron and incorporates the water pump=C2=A0and mount for the alternator plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It also had provisions for a drive for a vacuum=C2=A0pump.........I did not get<= /div>
the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with my housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal=C2=A0Type 1" = Lycoming O/IO 320-360 mount ring.........

Thanks,
Kelly Troyer

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t> wrote:
In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron (black plate).............LEH

In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyr= otary@lancaironline.net writes:

=C2=A0

Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great interest back when.

Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my hard drive, I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where = they came from originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80= =99s group) One is a 13B named =E2=80=98S= teve=E2=80=99. H= opefully these pics get thru-there is a picture limit on this list that makes it difficult to send larger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all o= f them I have just of the backplate, what is the MB/KB limit here?

Marc

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing

=C2=A0

Le Roux,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks= for digging=C2=A0this up = as it will answer a lot of questions from the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" = alloy side housing / accessory drive

that was headed for US & European certification........= .It incorporated the "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears" for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine mount..........This is

what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting=C2=A0to co= me up with a less expensive version of this=C2=A0plate bu= t without all the accessory=C2=A0drives and using the

stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electric airplanes)...........= .Photos are worth a thousand words..........

Thanks Again,

Kelly troyer=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in April 2011



=C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713= -03-B/MISTRAL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg=C2=A0=C2=A0


=C2=A0


Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and mounting

Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111



Le Roux

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=C2=A0 Dave & Charlie,


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = Only the early "Mistral&quo= t; 13B/20B based engines used=C2=A0the bol= t on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the Lycoming=C2=A0O/I= O 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" moun= t ring.........I know this

as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "= P port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C)

side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded=C2=A0int= o a cast alloy "Racing Beat= " front side housing.........A= ll the other

housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racin= g Beat"..........The earliest "Mistral" 20B engines also used = this alloy front cover but also had mount points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) and

only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the engine.........At that=C2=A0point i= n "Mistral'= ;s" engine development the engines they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their parts

were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda= " engine (such as my engine)..........= ..The last iteration of their engines were designed=C2=A0to = be certifiable so they had to have a verifiable=C2=A0m= anufacturing trail..........So they made

engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock "Mazda"= parts that were=C2=A0no= t needed or were improvements for aircraft use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that were not

adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines..........= .Long winded but perhaps will enlighten some about the "Mistral&quo= t; series of engines..........=


Best,

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2= =A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com> wrote:

Charlie and Mark,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Yes Charlie the accessory=C2=A0&q= uot;iron"=C2=A0side housing is what would be replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric

shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using=C2=A0the O/= IO 540 30 degree "Dyna1"= mount system.............


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bil= l is correct about the need for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to

further resistance to torsional twisting.........= .But remember that the O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and

that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much lighter..........= I do not believe that the "Mistral&quo= t; 13B or 20B used alloy housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have never

heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their engines..........= This is probably a question that will have to be proven one way or another in actual use..........IMHO=

Best

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b designs?

M

Sent from my iPad

=C2=A0

On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=C2=A0

Kelly,

The "dynafocal&q= uot; type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot and cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no way to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work&quo= t; and move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not recommended with the rotary. If=C2=A0 you were to do this anyway I wouldn't do i= t without a stud kit. You will have better results=C2=A0usin= g a bed mount. YMMV

Bill Jepson

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing=C2= =A0capabi= lity to produce an=C2= =A0Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side=C2=A0Housing machined from 7075-T6=C2=A0with mount points that=C2=A0would allow these engines<= br>
to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" = RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........T= his side plate is in the preliminary design stage and at this

point I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in this product if and when it is=C2=A0produced...........I personally am interested this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable of truly

amazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo boosted.........T= he 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's tha= t use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine...........=

The "Reno&qu= ot; Sport Class "Glasairs&qu= ot; and Lancairs" ar= e producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........Ther= e are turbo 20B's pulling=

1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good reliability......= ....A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing hard.........IMHO

Would like to hear what interest there may be in this product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro or con..............=C2=A0=C2=A0



Kelly Troyer







3D"Avast

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.a= vast.com




--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"= ;
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
--00000000000082ebc605aa21ccc3--