X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=GNns0A+hMfDB3dPTwgDFUw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=eKhGbfrDAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=BKQ4cUEmvxUS9J7RJ30A:9 a=91QKG_jNSP3DLr-O:21 a=0H1he6JyHNZTpQgR:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=h4B6rV12O-bX-uNTmkMA:9 a=cEFfKVyk1xQ9FSRP:21 a=uspuAqzxt-yytciI:21 a=4OAzGHNtm2W2_OQh:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=UDUmxsVa2tvOjJGaeGiU:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f194.google.com ([209.85.208.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 515681 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 19:36:08 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.194; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f194.google.com with SMTP id b25so8234048ljp.6 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 16:36:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7P131uqxVTL0PomVffCmwlqlleecHD+g1oOyTAfTQ5c=; b=gA9GAlvSKkWDiVl08mJ0CSNIEqnoOojOq5Mv+N3SUi2ZlGjGGupfv7BxD34uK0xrqG gny6ewbGdi7uPWle8H2VHeUcdLEdgcjzcRkVfw8ByodRCp3lzjdQ7jNVEP5Nld0oZMnr vqFxcYWHOE5+JYqwQzjNz8uMfD/otPzSsLGVrMurFH7VzvKZJ1nXCv98J17VfzytirAF ATmI7N8juodDpjLnFhpGU6e1YSfNfTvcQXGLfrxOc8eHemAR4B2bnEB/FVC8YtKIhKsn Ev4t8ZmyGmIEAoIYEVf8kn4NfN08xrh7AGLQgw99Oh2HqLpZlq69yidPzG6UwdzTcBzZ eYZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=7P131uqxVTL0PomVffCmwlqlleecHD+g1oOyTAfTQ5c=; b=fdyg3DJVWKWK1gIVZk+0jp6RaK04zentinkGRMXmv3IYYhE0lSoRqQEOfltF782q3e UNSGHc3016Hhl26u6oTS+fq4c9lHOMFaOaj4aVx9vcFrGQPOwfpfoi9soPwAupuARMgS HNtiI0q1U12yLKnncijhQB55NNHqhswzXzpu4humYO+F/xGJn8dgQttvW3E0RYjXFbB3 aDwQdlcKzAzuRguMkkncMm5m0/couVmbNQs98ZI+6NsW6kPz3IP3pazsQ/hBZjgKSenG gHLNXf2L0h8iYzWRmrnm6U8hRPk77lFD8ItvbQ+tM6bhQPNkNT2LxiJewga9ezXz4aCx ffuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533vypqLdWuy2r42ri3quHWRFRYmQENLhl9xyz5NVvdKjrMpwaJY rFkly8CyoO832wcWMbdkptsqSpBTMnz08bVJ8GtTrw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzIVAvVhl7g/3YpPXuhKSgv+uX15rr5QsZcB5rp5sl7onRq34g3g6Cdcnyb5uT/n6ATLVDuogzuMU2ApExFqCw= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b892:: with SMTP id r18mr44001383ljp.319.1594424150499; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 16:35:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 18:33:22 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ca80d05aa1ecd27" --0000000000001ca80d05aa1ecd27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Todd, Thanks for the comment and it is well received............Unless I hear otherwise from a majority of the group I will then keep all further discussion on the group forum...............As a further note if and when I acquire the mount/backplate under discussion I will probably add it to my "P" port 13BREW that I mentioned instead of the "Mistral" mount/housing that I have......I have a 20B but it would be seriously too much power and weight for my "Dyke Delta" even if the 20B were all alloy housings.......... Thanks Again, Kelly Troyer On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Hi Kelly; > This mount idea is an excellent idea worth pursuing as a practical > engine mount is a major roadblock to many builders that are otherwise > considering alternative engines. > While I'm not currently in the market for one myself, so I hadn't raise= d > my hand to say "count me in", but the future could bring another project > where I would be happy to have that availability of a ready to go engine > mount. > However I'd like to encourage you to keep all further discussion of > this topic online. I'd much rather simply delete a conversation that I ma= y > not have an interest in, than see the list with no discussion at all as > we've seen all too often in the recent past. Any and all discussion > pertaining to rotary powered aircraft helps to keep the list active and > encouraging to other builders, as well as adding ideas to the archives. > The archives have been a gold mine of info for me over the years, > sometimes even reading my own comments to give me an insight as to "what > the hell was I thinking" when I came up with some failed concept. But mor= e > often than not as a source of info for more successful concepts. > > Todd > C-FSTB > RV9 13Bturbo > > On Fri., Jul. 10, 2020, 11:21 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com, < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Flyrotary Forum Members, >> I appreciate the response of all members to my posts >> regarding the possible production of an *"Aircraft Specific Alloy >> 13B/20B combination Engine mount/Side plate"* >> that would be a direct bolt in to a* Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degree Dyna >> 1" engine mount ring.............. *There are several aftermarket >> companies currently producing all the alloy >> side housings that are necessary for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto >> Racing crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce at this time is= a >> front side housing specifically designed >> with the proper mount points to be essentially bolt in to any aircraft >> that normally be powered by any of several versions of the Lycoming O/IO >> 540 engine..........The current plan is to >> use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its water pump and ignition pickup >> and retain the stock oil pump........This mount could also be used many >> other aircraft that normally would use >> the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount >> ring (currently available from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a 13BREW >> engine (all alloy if wanted)........ >> >> This is a project that I have a personal interest in and at >> this time cannot report a time schedule for its completion.........I hav= e >> committed for the first "Beta" housing for testing >> and will keep the forum appraised of progress...........The forum is >> probably tired of me cluttering it up with this subject so for the time >> being any of the group that have an interest in >> this project or have any additional questions or concerns may E mail me >> directly if they choose..........Thanks for listening........... >> >> Best Regards >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:50 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Guys, >>> More info on the "Glasair 3" in Europe with "Mistral" 20 B based >>> rotary engine......... >>> >>> https://www.kitplanes.com/more-mistral-magic/ >>> >>> Kelly Troyer >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Lynn, >>>> Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate is.........."Mistrall" >>>> took oil from the normally plugged oil galley on the side of the front= iron >>>> to a machined "O" ringed alloy plate that >>>> incorporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I >>>> think) to bypass the oil cooler until oil temp got up to about 150 de= grees >>>> F........I have this plate also.......... >>>> >>>> Kelly Troyer >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Marc & Lynn >>>>> Yes the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like wha= t >>>>> my 13BREW will look like except it will have "Racing Beat" alloy cent= er & >>>>> rear housings and will be "P" ported........Their >>>>> early 13B engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes >>>>> Lynn this is the early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount cas= ting >>>>> and front cover into one unit that bolts to the >>>>> front iron and incorporates the water pump and mount for the >>>>> alternator plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It = also >>>>> had provisions for a drive for a vacuum pump.........I did not get >>>>> the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with my >>>>> housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal Type 1" Lycoming = O/IO >>>>> 320-360 mount ring......... >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Kelly Troyer >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < >>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And >>>>>> to a cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front i= ron >>>>>> (black plate).............LEH >>>>>> >>>>>> In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great >>>>>> interest back when. >>>>>> >>>>>> Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found on = my hard >>>>>> drive, I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where = they came from >>>>>> originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named = =E2=80=98Steve=E2=80=99. >>>>>> Hopefully these pics get thru-there is a picture limit on this list = that >>>>>> makes it difficult to send larger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send al= l of them I have >>>>>> just of the backplate, what is the MB/KB limit here? >>>>>> >>>>>> Marc >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM >>>>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front >>>>>> Side Housing >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Le Roux, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for digging this up as it will answer a lot of questions >>>>>> from the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" a= lloy >>>>>> side housing / accessory drive >>>>>> >>>>>> that was headed for US & European certification.........It >>>>>> incorporated the *"30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears"* for the Lycoming >>>>>> O/IO 540 engine mount..........This is >>>>>> >>>>>> what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting to >>>>>> come up with a less expensive version of this plate but without all = the >>>>>> accessory drives and using the >>>>>> >>>>>> stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup >>>>>> (electric airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words...= ....... >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Again, >>>>>> >>>>>> Kelly troyer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach >>>>>> breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in >>>>>> April 2011 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-02-B/= MISTRAL_%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/= MISTRAL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral >>>>>> mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up a= nd >>>>>> mounting >>>>>> >>>>>> Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.kitplanes.com/mistral-magic/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Le Roux >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave & Charlie, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on >>>>>> front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that u= sed the >>>>>> Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know t= his >>>>>> >>>>>> as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy >>>>>> housings.........I have all the housings and parts to build a bastar= dized >>>>>> part alloy "P port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron f= ront >>>>>> (Rear in tractor A/C) >>>>>> >>>>>> side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on >>>>>> its mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts thread= ed into >>>>>> a cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other >>>>>> >>>>>> housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The >>>>>> earliest "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but = also >>>>>> had mount points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed= type >>>>>> Mount) and >>>>>> >>>>>> only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the >>>>>> engine.........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the e= ngines >>>>>> they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all th= eir >>>>>> parts >>>>>> >>>>>> were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my >>>>>> engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed= to be >>>>>> certifiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing >>>>>> trail..........So they made >>>>>> >>>>>> engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the >>>>>> stock "Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for ai= rcraft >>>>>> use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts th= at were >>>>>> not >>>>>> >>>>>> adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but >>>>>> perhaps will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines...= ....... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Kelly Troyer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Charlie and Mark, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side housing is what would be >>>>>> replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that re= plicate >>>>>> the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric >>>>>> >>>>>> shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft >>>>>> centerline and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O/= IO 540 >>>>>> 30 degree "Dyna1" mount system............. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the rea= r >>>>>> dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the need= for >>>>>> .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to >>>>>> >>>>>> further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that >>>>>> the O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+= to >>>>>> over 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system a= nd >>>>>> >>>>>> that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be muc= h >>>>>> lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used= alloy >>>>>> housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have never >>>>>> >>>>>> heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of >>>>>> their engines..........This is probably a question that will have to= be >>>>>> proven one way or another in actual use..........IMHO >>>>>> >>>>>> Best >>>>>> >>>>>> Kelly Troyer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < >>>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b >>>>>> designs? >>>>>> >>>>>> M >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < >>>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Kelly, >>>>>> >>>>>> The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not >>>>>> worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a h= ot and >>>>>> cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is= no way >>>>>> to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "wor= k" and >>>>>> move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is n= ot >>>>>> recommended with the rotary. If you were to do this anyway I wouldn= 't do >>>>>> it without a stud kit. You will have better results using a bed moun= t. YMMV >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill Jepson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> *I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing **c= apability >>>>>> to produce an **Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing >>>>>> machined from 7075-T6* *with mount points that would allow these >>>>>> engines* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) >>>>>> as used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming= O/IO >>>>>> 540 engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design sta= ge and >>>>>> at thispoint I am a go between to see if there would be any interest= in >>>>>> this product if and when it is produced...........I personally am >>>>>> interested this side plate........As we on this forum know both the = 13B / >>>>>> 20B are capable of trulyamazing power levels both naturally aspirate= d and >>>>>> turbo boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3= or >>>>>> Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt= in >>>>>> engine...........The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are >>>>>> producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 eng= ines >>>>>> that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There a= re >>>>>> turbo 20B's pulling1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good >>>>>> reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing >>>>>> hard.........IMHOWould like to hear what interest there may be in th= is >>>>>> product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pr= o or >>>>>> con..............* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Kelly Troyer >>>>>> >>>>>> --0000000000001ca80d05aa1ecd27 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Todd,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for= the comment and it is well received............Unless I hear otherwise fro= m a majority of the group I will then keep all further discussion on the gr= oup forum...............As a further
note if and when I acquire t= he mount/backplate under discussion I will probably add it to my "P&qu= ot; port 13BREW that I mentioned instead of the "Mistral" mount/h= ousing that I have......I have=C2=A0
a 20B but it would be seriou= sly=C2=A0too much power and weight for my "Dyke Delta" even if th= e 20B were all alloy housings..........

Thanks Aga= in,
Kelly Troyer

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:55 PM Todd Bartri= m bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wr= ote:
Hi Kelly;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This mount idea is an excell= ent idea worth pursuing as a practical engine mount is a major roadblock to= many builders that are otherwise considering alternative engines.
=C2=A0 While I'm not currently in the market for one mys= elf, so I hadn't raised my hand to say "count me in", but the= future could bring another project where I would be happy to have that ava= ilability of a ready to go engine mount.
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0However I'd like to encourage you to keep all further discussion of = this topic online. I'd much rather simply delete a conversation that I = may not have an interest in, than see the list with no discussion at all as= we've seen all too often in the recent past. Any and all discussion pe= rtaining to rotary powered aircraft helps to keep the list active and encou= raging to other builders, as well as adding ideas to the archives.
=C2=A0 The archives have been a gold mine of info for me ove= r the years, sometimes even reading my own comments to give me an insight a= s to "what the hell was I thinking" when I came up with some fail= ed concept. But more often than not as a source of info for more successful= concepts.

Todd
C-FSTB
RV9 13Bturbo

On Fri., Jul= . 10, 2020, 11:21 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
<= /div>
Flyrotary=C2=A0Forum Members,=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I appreciate=C2=A0the response of all mem= bers to my posts regarding the possible production of an "Aircraft = Specific Alloy 13B/20B combination Engine mount/Side plate"
<= div>that would be a direct bolt in to a Lycoming O/IO 540 "30 degre= e Dyna 1" engine mount ring.............. There are several afterm= arket companies currently producing all the alloy
side hou= sings that are necessary=C2=A0for an all alloy 13B/20B for the auto Racing = crowd.........What we are trying to do is produce at this time is a front s= ide housing specifically designed
with the proper mount points to= be essentially bolt in to any aircraft that normally be powered by any of = several=C2=A0versions of the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........The current = plan is to
use the RX8 Renesis front cover with its water pump an= d ignition=C2=A0pickup and retain the stock oil pump........This mount coul= d also be used many other aircraft=C2=A0that normally would use=C2=A0
=
the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 engines by using the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount= ring (currently available from "Vans" for about $150.00) with a = 13BREW engine (all alloy if wanted)........=C2=A0

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is a project that I have a p= ersonal interest in and at this time cannot report a time schedule for its = completion.........I have committed for the first "Beta" housing = for testing=C2=A0
and will keep the forum appraised of progress..= .........The forum is probably tired of me cluttering it up with this subje= ct so for the time being any of the group that have an interest in
this project or have any additional questions or concerns may E=C2=A0mail= =C2=A0me directly if they choose..........Thanks for listening...........

Best Regards
Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0


On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:50 PM Kell= y Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ; wrote:
Guys,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 More info on the "Glasair 3" in= Europe with "Mistral" 20 B based rotary engine.........


Kelly Troyer

On T= hu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:59 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <fly= rotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Lynn,
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate is.........."= ;Mistrall" took oil from the normally plugged oil galley on the side o= f the front iron to a machined "O" ringed alloy plate that
<= div>incorporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental= part I think)=C2=A0 to bypass the oil=C2=A0cooler until=C2=A0oil temp got = up to about 150 degrees F........I have this plate also..........

Kelly Troyer

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troy= er keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrot= e:
Marc & Lynn
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes the photo of the "Mistral&quo= t; 13B engine on the bench is like what my 13BREW will look like=C2=A0excep= t it will have "Racing Beat" alloy center & rear housings and= will be "P" ported........Their
early 13B engines were= based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lynn this is the early mount= scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and front cover into one unit= that bolts to the=C2=A0
front iron and incorporates the water pu= mp=C2=A0and mount for the alternator plus the pickup for their electronic i= gnition..........It also had provisions for a drive for a vacuum=C2=A0pump.= ........I did not get
the gears for this drive (less expense)(ele= ctric airplane) with my housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dyna= focal=C2=A0Type 1" Lycoming O/IO 320-360 mount ring.........

Thanks,
Kelly Troyer

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at = 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline= .net> wrote:
In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front = iron. And to a cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the fron= t iron (black plate).............LEH

In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyr= otary@lancaironline.net writes:

=C2=A0

Great stuff.<= span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> I saw and read that Kit= planes article with great interest back when.

Here=E2=80=99s some = conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my hard drive, I believe th= ey are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where they came from originally = (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named =E2=80=98Steve=E2=80=99. Hopefully these pics get t= hru-there is a picture limit on this list that makes it difficult to send l= arger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of them I have just of the backplate, what is th= e MB/KB limit here?

Marc

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM
To: Rotary motors i= n aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B= Mazda Front Side Housing

=C2=A0

Le Roux,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for digging=C2=A0this up as it will answer a lot of= questions from the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mi= strals" alloy side housing / accessory drive

that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorpora= ted the "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears" for the L= ycoming O/IO 540 engine mount..........This is

what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting=C2=A0to c= ome up with a less expensive version of this=C2=A0plate but without all the= accessory=C2=A0drives and using the

stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electr= ic airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words..........

Thanks Again,

Kelly troyer=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in Apr= il 2011



=C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:= 81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MISTRAL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(= Large).jpg=C2=A0=C2=A0


=C2=A0


Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral mount= ing here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and mounting<= /p>

Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111



Le Roux

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gma= il.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= > wrote:

=C2=A0 Dave & Charlie,


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines u= sed=C2=A0the bolt on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount= points that used the Lycoming=C2=A0O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1&quo= t; mount ring.........I know this

as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I= have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P = port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tr= actor A/C)

side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its = mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded=C2=A0int= o a cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the o= ther

housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........= The earliest "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cov= er but also had mount points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially = a Bed type Mount) and

only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the engine= .........At that=C2=A0point in "Mistral's" engine development= the engines they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" en= gines and all their parts

were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my = engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed=C2=A0t= o be certifiable so they had to have a verifiable=C2=A0manufacturing trail.= .........So they made

engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock &= quot;Mazda" parts that were=C2=A0not needed or were improvements for a= ircraft use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts t= hat were not

adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded b= ut perhaps will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engi= nes..........


Best,

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer <keltr= o@gmail.com> wrote:

Charlie and Mark,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes Charlie the accessory=C2=A0"iron"=C2= =A0side housing is what would be replaced with an aluminum housing with bui= lt in mount points that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and loca= te the Mazda eccentric

shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline= and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using=C2=A0the O/IO 540 30 de= gree "Dyna1" mount system.............


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on us= ing the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about th= e need for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sum= p to

further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the = O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over 50= 0 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and

that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much li= ghter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B use= d alloy housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have neve= r

heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their = engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven on= e way or another in actual use..........IMHO

Best

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardma= rc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net> wrote:

Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b des= igns?

M

Sent from my iPad

=C2=A0

On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson= wrjjrs@gmail.com <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=C2=A0

Kelly,

The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but ha= s not worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a ho= t and cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is = no way to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to &quo= t;work" and move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed m= ember is not recommended with the rotary. If=C2=A0 you were to do this anyw= ay I wouldn't do it without a stud kit. You will have better results=C2= =A0using a bed mount. YMMV

Bill Jepson

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gma= il.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= > wrote:

I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing=C2= =A0capabi= lity to produce an=C2=A0Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda= Front Side=C2=A0Housing machined from 7075-T6=C2=A0with mount points that=C2=A0wo= uld allow these engines

to be a bolt in to the engi= ne mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" RV-= 10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........This s= ide plate is in the preliminary design stage and at this

point I am = a go between to see if there would be any interest in this product if and w= hen it is=C2=A0produced...........I personally am interested this side plat= e........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable of truly
amazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo boosted......= ...The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that= use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine...........=

The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs&= quot; are producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 = engines that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There = are turbo 20B's pulling

1200 hp out in the auto racing world wit= h good reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing = hard.........IMHO

Would like to hear what interest there may be in t= his product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro o= r con..............=C2=A0=C2=A0



Kelly Troyer




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