X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=4asmsZpsJSXlb+w/CyWm5g==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=eKhGbfrDAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=UEqCgIsXl3wfTv6-YlQA:9 a=eS97MoBzsZUNMnu1:21 a=huRw0DjXpFcFdiAJ:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=nIlBwxPAqhCIARi0b3AA:9 a=8-dIjMxfxOUhXdU4:21 a=ThDJkngWlPZoMses:21 a=b7r_IQcAfApIITUJ:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=UDUmxsVa2tvOjJGaeGiU:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f182.google.com ([209.85.208.182] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 510818 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 Jul 2020 17:58:54 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.182; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f182.google.com with SMTP id h19so4090572ljg.13 for ; Thu, 09 Jul 2020 14:58:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=to0hapt6DdKeMTkSIrChrhcX2809JrYBNAZWqqBm2Ls=; b=dtbfPbb3MhoXyJGTRheNzUBWvHz7JMyyeAWE+gT1PoJ2sEAplcMPmloL6+wnCeh6aF peOIpDVBd6uJyjDNTFUnEo2pfhryFrusCvG4PSahR/CSsFw3ySGfTdn60b5gBb83GY03 DKLn7a2QVmKkrOX8jGA0ybEBUCMqH312RpNnzoeZ82Lg4NlPT1Gx2zztGXYOaaAwUl+B 24HCnElbm3wyZRqud9rLm2mU+x1r3CWmJJNNddYWBfE5Kol/4p/zG/kepWUYIrMQ0uDG jhRfvjNrKW8P49OC66nJ0/zqc3nOihbpGQ4vAikxD9N0UNvccmsi3uluzyr56fTu1WkX NJ4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=to0hapt6DdKeMTkSIrChrhcX2809JrYBNAZWqqBm2Ls=; b=TBN4xF51+foD5i70Bq7CCkSrM6JREL1l3qG8+diK5nl0AlZHULZWzWkvidkFYsZki5 lbR0nsABvoqcOgOcBkTurL6UdQs2sr9pZQaXX7/VFOr47nw5bGM/Fg2+qAoBh7pSH9su UeoJ2u3CLZ7RATzmPqNQ+tRFO1IQ29tR0YBkG/YpSBFChfVrNNn5yk/Jlx1jZZKuAO87 DiFCYyil9SciMSbLUipaf8+C7on3a8y0F1mDI0gjU9LuwewFKyHjbRYxcriGsyddbARn WEhpec8WD9rMNPVKzi/hFmtZ0SYbK9CKAkOYnry7/n5ghqISbTXwISbZOO+QRca9yVWa 1r3A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530XzMqWZFbb+YAu/5e89IpMiMyzmr+MiFI3SrX+t246ux8xO9su jx8iGZAvjbEwEh4RLTHZWl8als0oa2kaHRfu00JIcw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwfTXBmdoAEPc9iBFRmBMVlwmsFiWIAs5EFwoWr7OnF6QV3peC2FPmnbZVMNofgbLkyt+QDdfQ6rZITtN1SQS0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:808a:: with SMTP id i10mr30839717ljg.400.1594331916896; Thu, 09 Jul 2020 14:58:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 16:56:09 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing-pics To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008f8e1405aa09534c" --0000000000008f8e1405aa09534c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn, Forgot to mention what the "Black" plate is.........."Mistrall" took oil from the normally plugged oil galley on the side of the front iron to a machined "O" ringed alloy plate that incorporated the oil filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I think) to bypass the oil cooler until oil temp got up to about 150 degrees F........I have this plate also.......... Kelly Troyer On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Marc & Lynn > Yes the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the bench is like what my > 13BREW will look like except it will have "Racing Beat" alloy center & re= ar > housings and will be "P" ported........Their > early 13B engines were based on the 1986-1991 models.............Yes Lynn > this is the early mount scheme that combines the alloy mount casting and > front cover into one unit that bolts to the > front iron and incorporates the water pump and mount for the alternator > plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It also had > provisions for a drive for a vacuum pump.........I did not get > the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with my > housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal Type 1" Lycoming O/IO > 320-360 mount ring......... > > Thanks, > Kelly Troyer > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front iron. And to a >> cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the front iron (blac= k >> plate).............LEH >> >> In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >> >> >> >> Great stuff. I saw and read that Kitplanes article with great interest >> back when. >> >> Here=E2=80=99s some conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my h= ard >> drive, I believe they are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where they= came from >> originally (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named =E2= =80=98Steve=E2=80=99. >> Hopefully these pics get thru-there is a picture limit on this list that >> makes it difficult to send larger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of= them I have >> just of the backplate, what is the MB/KB limit here? >> >> Marc >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side >> Housing >> >> >> >> Le Roux, >> >> Thanks for digging this up as it will answer a lot of questions from >> the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side >> housing / accessory drive >> >> that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorporated >> the *"30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears"* for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine >> mount..........This is >> >> what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting to come u= p >> with a less expensive version of this plate but without all the >> accessory drives and using the >> >> stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup >> (electric airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words.......= ... >> >> Thanks Again, >> >> Kelly troyer >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach >> breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in >> April 2011 >> >> >> >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-02-B/MIST= RAL_%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg >> >> >> >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MIST= RAL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral >> mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and >> mounting >> >> Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111 >> >> >> https://www.kitplanes.com/mistral-magic/ >> >> >> Le Roux >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Dave & Charlie, >> >> >> Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on fron= t >> cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the >> Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know this >> >> as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I >> have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P por= t" >> 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/= C) >> >> side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its >> mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded into = a >> cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other >> >> housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest >> "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had moun= t >> points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) a= nd >> >> only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the >> engine.........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the engin= es >> they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their >> parts >> >> were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my >> engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed to = be >> certifiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing >> trail..........So they made >> >> engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock >> "Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for aircraft >> use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that w= ere >> not >> >> adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps >> will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines.......... >> >> >> Best, >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: >> >> Charlie and Mark, >> >> Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side housing is what would be >> replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that replic= ate >> the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric >> >> shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline >> and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O/IO 540 30 degre= e >> "Dyna1" mount system............. >> >> >> Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the rear >> dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the need for >> .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to >> >> further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the >> O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over >> 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and >> >> that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much >> lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used all= oy >> housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have never >> >> heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their >> engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven >> one way or another in actual use..........IMHO >> >> Best >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b >> designs? >> >> M >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> >> On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> Kelly, >> >> The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not >> worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot a= nd >> cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no = way >> to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" a= nd >> move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not >> recommended with the rotary. If you were to do this anyway I wouldn't d= o >> it without a stud kit. You will have better results using a bed mount. Y= MMV >> >> Bill Jepson >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> *I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing **capab= ility >> to produce an **Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing >> machined from 7075-T6* *with mount points that would allow these engines= * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as >> used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 5= 40 >> engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and a= t >> thispoint I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in thi= s >> product if and when it is produced...........I personally am interested >> this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are >> capable of trulyamazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo >> boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancai= r's >> that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in >> engine...........The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are >> producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines >> that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are >> turbo 20B's pulling1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good >> reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing >> hard.........IMHOWould like to hear what interest there may be in this >> product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro or >> con..............* >> >> >> -- >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --0000000000008f8e1405aa09534c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lynn,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Forgot to mention= what the "Black" plate is.........."Mistrall" took oil= from the normally plugged oil galley on the side of the front iron to a ma= chined "O" ringed alloy plate that
incorporated the oil= filter and a "Vernitherm" (a Continental part I think)=C2=A0 to = bypass the oil=C2=A0cooler until=C2=A0oil temp got up to about 150 degrees = F........I have this plate also..........

Kelly Tr= oyer

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Marc & Lynn=C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes the photo of the "Mistral" 13B engine on the be= nch is like what my 13BREW will look like=C2=A0except it will have "Ra= cing Beat" alloy center & rear housings and will be "P" = ported........Their
early 13B engines were based on the 1986-1991= models.............Yes Lynn this is the early mount scheme that combines t= he alloy mount casting and front cover into one unit that bolts to the=C2= =A0
front iron and incorporates the water pump=C2=A0and mount for= the alternator plus the pickup for their electronic ignition..........It a= lso had provisions for a drive for a vacuum=C2=A0pump.........I did not get=
the gears for this drive (less expense)(electric airplane) with = my housing.........This casting mounts to a "Dynafocal=C2=A0Type 1&quo= t; Lycoming O/IO 320-360 mount ring.........

Thank= s,
Kelly Troyer

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 1:31 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com &= lt;flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net> wrote:
In both pictures the mount appears to attach to the front = iron. And to a cast oil pan and a plate bolted to the left side of the fron= t iron (black plate).............LEH

In a message dated 7/9/2020 1:38:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline= .net writes:

=C2=A0

Great stuff.<= span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> I saw and read that Kit= planes article with great interest back when.

Here=E2=80=99s some = conical mounting back plate pictures I found on my hard drive, I believe th= ey are all Mistral, but don=E2=80=99t know where they came from originally = (perhaps Paul Lamar=E2=80=99s group) One is a 13B named =E2=80=98Steve=E2=80=99. Hopefully these pics get t= hru-there is a picture limit on this list that makes it difficult to send l= arger files, so I didn=E2=80=99t send all of them I have just of the backplate, what is th= e MB/KB limit here?

Marc

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 1:28 AM
To: Rotary motors i= n aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Fron= t Side Housing

=C2=A0

Le Roux,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for digging=C2=A0this up as it will answer a lot of= questions from the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mi= strals" alloy side housing / accessory drive

that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorpora= ted the "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears" for the L= ycoming O/IO 540 engine mount..........This is

what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting=C2=A0to c= ome up with a less expensive version of this=C2=A0plate but without all the= accessory=C2=A0drives and using the

stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electr= ic airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words..........

Thanks Again,

Kelly troyer=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach br= eytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline= .net> wrote:

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=C2=A0 Dave & Charlie,


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines u= sed=C2=A0the bolt on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount= points that used the Lycoming=C2=A0O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1&quo= t; mount ring.........I know this

as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I= have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P = port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tr= actor A/C)

side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its = mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded=C2=A0int= o a cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the o= ther

housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........= The earliest "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cov= er but also had mount points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially = a Bed type Mount) and

only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the engine= .........At that=C2=A0point in "Mistral's" engine development= the engines they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" en= gines and all their parts

were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my = engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed=C2=A0t= o be certifiable so they had to have a verifiable=C2=A0manufacturing trail.= .........So they made

engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock &= quot;Mazda" parts that were=C2=A0not needed or were improvements for a= ircraft use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts t= hat were not

adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded b= ut perhaps will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engi= nes..........


Best,

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com= > wrote:

Charlie and Mark,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes Charlie the accessory=C2=A0"iron"=C2= =A0side housing is what would be replaced with an aluminum housing with bui= lt in mount points that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and loca= te the Mazda eccentric

shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline= and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using=C2=A0the O/IO 540 30 de= gree "Dyna1" mount system.............


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on us= ing the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about th= e need for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sum= p to

further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the = O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over 50= 0 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and

that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much li= ghter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B use= d alloy housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have neve= r

heard if they used the oversize .500 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their = engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven on= e way or another in actual use..........IMHO

Best

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.= net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b des= igns?

M

Sent from my iPad

=C2=A0

On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson= wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net> wrote:

=C2=A0

Kelly,

The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but ha= s not worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a ho= t and cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is = no way to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to &quo= t;work" and move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed m= ember is not recommended with the rotary. If=C2=A0 you were to do this anyw= ay I wouldn't do it without a stud kit. You will have better results=C2= =A0using a bed mount. YMMV

Bill Jepson

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing=C2= =A0capabi= lity to produce an=C2=A0Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda= Front Side=C2=A0Housing machined from 7075-T6=C2=A0with mount points that=C2=A0wo= uld allow these engines

to be a bolt in to the engi= ne mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" RV-= 10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........This s= ide plate is in the preliminary design stage and at this

point I am = a go between to see if there would be any interest in this product if and w= hen it is=C2=A0produced...........I personally am interested this side plat= e........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable of truly
amazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo boosted......= ...The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that= use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine...........=

The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs&= quot; are producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 = engines that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There = are turbo 20B's pulling

1200 hp out in the auto racing world wit= h good reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing = hard.........IMHO

Would like to hear what interest there may be in t= his product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro o= r con..............=C2=A0=C2=A0


--

Kelly Troyer

=C2=A0



=C2=A0




--0000000000008f8e1405aa09534c--