X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=GX+oVRehGphV4japGZv+zw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=DDNF8ybvv5wA:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=eKhGbfrDAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=kqRNpxnFHaUpHY4PBkIA:9 a=5dYov3GSrB2K5QMH:21 a=c4kE0BsxN3-Q-Dlv:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=26tVntT-0Cu4ugGvDQMA:9 a=toD0P0kcnEM8pqFj:21 a=NpjleSmrLvEJFMlF:21 a=ZJFKf2dYSp_ABz6Z:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=UDUmxsVa2tvOjJGaeGiU:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 From: "Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com" Received: from mail-qk1-f181.google.com ([209.85.222.181] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 507821 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 Jul 2020 01:24:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.222.181; envelope-from=breytenbachleroux@gmail.com Received: by mail-qk1-f181.google.com with SMTP id e11so723377qkm.3 for ; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 22:24:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Wed, 08 Jul 2020 22:24:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 07:24:03 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000077475b05a9fb6f1f" --00000000000077475b05a9fb6f1f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in April 2011 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-02-B/MISTRAL= _%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MISTRAL= _FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and mounting Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111 https://www.kitplanes.com/mistral-magic/ Le Roux On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Dave & Charlie, > > Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on front > cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the > Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know this > as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I > have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P port= " > 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C= ) > side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its > mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded into a > cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other > housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest > "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had mount > points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) an= d > only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the > engine.........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the engine= s > they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their > parts > were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my > engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed to b= e > certifiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing > trail..........So they made > engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock > "Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for aircraft > use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that we= re > not > adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps > will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines.......... > > Best, > Kelly Troyer > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: > >> Charlie and Mark, >> Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side housing is what would be >> replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that replic= ate >> the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric >> shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline >> and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O/IO 540 30 degre= e >> "Dyna1" mount system............. >> >> Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the rear >> dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the need for >> .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to >> further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the >> O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over >> 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and >> that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much >> lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used all= oy >> housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have never >> heard if they used the oversize .550 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their >> engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven >> one way or another in actual use..........IMHO >> Best >> Kelly Troyer >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b >>> designs? >>> M >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> =EF=BB=BF >>> Kelly, >>> The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not >>> worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot = and >>> cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no= way >>> to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" = and >>> move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not >>> recommended with the rotary. If you were to do this anyway I wouldn't = do >>> it without a stud kit. You will have better results using a bed mount. = YMMV >>> Bill Jepson >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>>> *I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing **cap= ability >>>> to produce an **Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side** Housing >>>> machined from 7075-T6* *with mount points that **would allow these >>>> engines* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as >>>> used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO= 540 >>>> engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and= at >>>> thispoint I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in t= his >>>> product if and when it is * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *produced...........I personally am interested this side >>>> plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable o= f >>>> trulyamazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo >>>> boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lanc= air's >>>> that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in >>>> engine...........The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are >>>> producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engin= es >>>> that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are >>>> turbo 20B's pulling1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good >>>> reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing >>>> hard.........IMHOWould like to hear what interest there may be in this >>>> product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro = or >>>> con..............* >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kelly Troyer >>>> >>>> >> >> >> > > -- > Kelly Troyer > Dyke Delta_"Eventually" > 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 > --00000000000077475b05a9fb6f1f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread y= ou post in April 2011


<= /div>
=C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironl= ine.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MISTRAL_FINAL%20RearPlate_dra= wing%20(Large).jpg=C2=A0=C2=A0



Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral m= ounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and mount= ing
Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111
<= br>
Le Roux

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=
=C2=A0 Dave & Charlie,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only t= he early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used=C2=A0the bolt on fr= ont cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the L= ycoming=C2=A0O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I= know this
as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy = housings.........I have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized p= art alloy "P port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron= front (Rear in tractor A/C)=C2=A0
side housing because I was not= comfortable having my engine hang on its mounts from a housing attached on= ly by several 6 mm bolts threaded=C2=A0into a cast alloy "Racing Beat&= quot; front side housing.........All the other
housings (Center &= amp; Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest "Mi= stral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had mount= points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) and=
only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of th= e engine.........At that=C2=A0point in "Mistral's" engine dev= elopment the engines they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda&= quot; engines and all their parts
were directly adaptable to a st= ock "Mazda" engine (such as my engine)............The last iterat= ion of their engines were designed=C2=A0to be certifiable so they had to ha= ve a verifiable=C2=A0manufacturing trail..........So they made
en= gineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock "= Mazda" parts that were=C2=A0not needed or were improvements for aircra= ft use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that w= ere not
adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines.........= ..Long winded but perhaps will enlighten some about the "Mistral"= series of engines..........

Best,
Kelly= Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer <= keltro@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Charlie and Mark,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes Charli= e the accessory=C2=A0"iron"=C2=A0side housing is what would be re= placed with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that replicate t= he Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric=C2=A0
<= div>shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerlin= e and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using=C2=A0the O/IO 540 30 d= egree "Dyna1" mount system.............

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using= the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the n= eed for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump t= o
further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember = that the O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ t= o over 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and
that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be mu= ch lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20= B used alloy housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have= never=C2=A0
heard if they used the oversize .550 inch/12.5 mm st= uds in any of their engines..........This is probably a question that will = have to be proven one way or another in actual use..........IMHO
= Best
Kelly Troyer

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net<= /a> <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Wonder why Mistral used dynafoca= l type mounting on their 13b and 20b designs?
M

Sent from my iPad

On J= ul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote= :

=EF= =BB=BF
Kelly,
The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the ro= tary but has not worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that = it has a hot and cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this bu= t there is no way to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine te= nds to "work" and move around on the studs. Using the engine as a= stressed member is not recommended with the rotary. If=C2=A0 you were to d= o this anyway I wouldn't do it without a stud kit. You will have better= results=C2=A0using a bed mount. YMMV
Bill Jepson

=
On Wed, Ju= l 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
<= /div>
I am in contact with a person with the de= sign and manufacturing=C2=A0capa= bility to produce an=C2=A0Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side=C2=A0Housing machined from 7075-T6=C2=A0with= mount points that=C2=A0would allow thes= e engines

to be a bolt in to the engine mount ri= ng (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" RV-10 and othe= r aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........This side plate i= s in the preliminary design stage and at this

point I am a go betwee= n to see if there would be any interest in this product if and when it is= =C2=A0produced...........I pers= onally am interested this side plate........As we on this forum know both t= he 13B / 20B are capable of truly

amazing power levels both naturall= y aspirated and turbo boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-1= 0 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ = hp almost bolt in engine...........

The "Reno" Sport Class= "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing almost 400 mph speed= s using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual hand grenades p= ulling over 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's pulling

1200 = hp out in the auto racing world with good reliability..........A 20B booste= d to 700+ hp is not even breathing hard.........IMHO

Would like to h= ear what interest there may be in this product if and when it may be produc= ed............Or any comments pro or con..............=C2= =A0=C2=A0

--
Kelly Tro= yer





--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
--00000000000077475b05a9fb6f1f--