X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=4zkrsQRq7OtPSKxho4NkuQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=OkebsEEtml-awkBKZ-sA:9 a=fgrg93LVghBNEdL9:21 a=2yVgCDl743PvVe_p:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=TNCYbyr-aPifmaBvgGUA:9 a=HNCUhxWVaUfbyDwh:21 a=nWa0TvBsLZAJ3wTD:21 a=abW3j4GXkk_veVFa:21 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f177.google.com ([209.85.208.177] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 507744 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 Jul 2020 00:35:34 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.177; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f177.google.com with SMTP id q4so834413lji.2 for ; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:35:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=P4TdRragu3H4KsIzoaL2LhygzQbuCz3OR9l7kRIqKk8=; b=vCxo2SkcQkWy3xHXBPbHTUufLsnzeJHgfQbBKPAy6owUb0wY6Bb4eD2u6aSbZLn/KL dToUBc4O7jkZEWBCYllRUsloAcmOvim2Sl+6CiRoI7eMuxRBDEsagzqpSZZ/kIRvDNh2 3CGULkMN4ucYq1m/v9RoDwEnTjqYKZoXC7FQcXeLZ7T8Lzlyq3c3iKXRSVPqlZa4wDGc 8mef5dFj2DRuVa3r+U3w9T5tuILZbZOWC+2RqP0DFGWbmQvxrHf1fU38HoHECv/c5Eek 6o9emmg0SUsocKl5e1LZ57LoOd6t3m9u/hF5bIhJjMapNpvNzo8l4X8b47UdK1iy4tyU nkIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=P4TdRragu3H4KsIzoaL2LhygzQbuCz3OR9l7kRIqKk8=; b=EzLDZGbSBg9TJZ8elArRy8+TB0S4bRYX37uzv+zjHgve3ljPcfOkp3NeHxmDaxf1Hk VdgwT35cSWZiiLY3Qgn4hmI6Csg6QCJ7oSH5FCJEnEGhaLo1CxHDCVO72HxLso30c8eu ILC8Pz2IX+/MRXjQKANmVWkkxxDIvk85kBKsE7W/dDLtbSm8nhIvi0KmtjQH46kdCvhK MnzRaYDVO5hF2kP8lya+aweDODP7hOO/iMs4l6XEP6daXpKKqd37Zl7na6hYGirwVMhz PN+H4yM1Mq+YYeHa1bNRzYrweghWIbmkYmRD3ee8Oq1HT8BC6XS95do3sISlkiY6vVDS WYvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531JnAi1A+Hzp1JjNZ2OHKbiPuPR96H9mbXV7XdnuIVOrl89h2Iu cEvL4qwV5ggjfkIwojBsk6/2IzzpSLpyzElTjwcotw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzgwSy6Q8wQ/s7EE1K02BU1D8j4OljRTrRn18VpcjtCvBJrnYeGZPhqypA3f7jaNiJ0/lyWA3pIjO9ur4UyQ/E= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:90d8:: with SMTP id o24mr4621037ljg.278.1594269317024; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:35:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 23:32:50 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000051534105a9fac05d" --00000000000051534105a9fac05d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave & Charlie, Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know this as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C) side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded into a cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had mount points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) and only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the engine.........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the engines they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their parts were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed to be certifiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing trail..........So they made engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock "Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for aircraft use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that were not adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines.......... Best, Kelly Troyer On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: > Charlie and Mark, > Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side housing is what would be > replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that replica= te > the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric > shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline > and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O/IO 540 30 degree > "Dyna1" mount system............. > > Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the rear dyn= a > focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the need for .500 > in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to > further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the > O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to over > 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and > that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much > lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used allo= y > housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have never > heard if they used the oversize .550 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their > engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be proven > one way or another in actual use..........IMHO > Best > Kelly Troyer > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b >> designs? >> M >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> Kelly, >> The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not >> worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot a= nd >> cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no = way >> to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work" a= nd >> move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not >> recommended with the rotary. If you were to do this anyway I wouldn't d= o >> it without a stud kit. You will have better results using a bed mount. Y= MMV >> Bill Jepson >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> *I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing **capa= bility >>> to produce an **Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side** Housing >>> machined from 7075-T6* *with mount points that **would allow these >>> engines* >>> >>> >>> >>> *to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as >>> used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO = 540 >>> engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and = at >>> thispoint I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in th= is >>> product if and when it is * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *produced...........I personally am interested this side plate........A= s >>> we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable of trulyamazing po= wer >>> levels both naturally aspirated and turbo boosted.........The 20B would >>> make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/I= O >>> 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine...........The "Reno" Sport Cl= ass >>> "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual >>> turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual hand grenades pulling ov= er >>> 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's pulling1200 hp out in the auto >>> racing world with good reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is= not >>> even breathing hard.........IMHOWould like to hear what interest there = may >>> be in this product if and when it may be produced............Or any >>> comments pro or con..............* >>> >>> -- >>> Kelly Troyer >>> >>> > > > --=20 Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --00000000000051534105a9fac05d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Dave & Charlie,

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used= =C2=A0the bolt on front cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount po= ints that used the Lycoming=C2=A0O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" = mount ring.........I know this
as fact as I am the proud owner of= one of these alloy housings.........I have all the housings and parts to b= uild a bastardized part alloy "P port" 13BREW engine.........I re= tained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/C)=C2=A0
side housi= ng because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its mounts from a= housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded=C2=A0into a cast allo= y "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other
housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........T= he earliest "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cove= r but also had mount points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a= Bed type Mount) and
only used the bottom two mount points on the= accessory end of the engine.........At that=C2=A0point in "Mistral= 9;s" engine development the engines they sold to experimenters were ba= sically "Mazda" engines and all their parts
were direct= ly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my engine).......= .....The last iteration of their engines were designed=C2=A0to be certifiab= le so they had to have a verifiable=C2=A0manufacturing trail..........So th= ey made
engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things ab= out the stock "Mazda" parts that were=C2=A0not needed or were imp= rovements for aircraft use..........Most of the last versions of their engi= nes had parts that were not
adaptable to the stock "Mazda&qu= ot; engines...........Long winded but perhaps will enlighten some about the= "Mistral" series of engines..........

B= est,
Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 = PM Kelly Troyer <k= eltro@gmail.com> wrote:
Charlie and Mark,
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Yes Charlie the accessory=C2=A0"iron"=C2=A0side housing= is what would be replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount poi= nts that replicate the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda ec= centric=C2=A0
shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming = crankshaft centerline and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using=C2= =A0the O/IO 540 30 degree "Dyna1" mount system.............
=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark I am well aware of the differe= nt opinions on using the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is= correct about the need for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and= /or rigid oil sump to
further resistance to torsional twisting...= .......But remember that the O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forwa= rd weights of 400+ to over 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this= mount system and
that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reducti= on drive) will be much lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mis= tral" 13B or 20B used alloy housings for other than the front accessor= y housing and I have never=C2=A0
heard if they used the oversize = .550 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their engines..........This is probably a= question that will have to be proven one way or another in actual use.....= .....IMHO
Best
Kelly Troyer

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 = PM Marcus Wiese c= ardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Wonder why M= istral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b designs?
M
=
Sent from my iPad

On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net> wrote:

<= div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
Kelly,
The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but= has not worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a= hot and cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there = is no way to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to &= quot;work" and move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stresse= d member is not recommended with the rotary. If=C2=A0 you were to do this a= nyway I wouldn't do it without a stud kit. You will have better results= =C2=A0using a bed mount. YMMV
Bill Jepson

On Wed, Jul 8, 202= 0 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I am in contact with a person with the design and= manufacturing=C2=A0capability t= o produce an=C2=A0Av= iation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side=C2=A0Housing machined from 7075-T6=C2=A0with mount p= oints that=C2=A0<= span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-family:inherit;vertica= l-align:baseline;color:rgb(38,40,42)">would allow these engine= s

to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 d= egree number 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircra= ft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........This side plate is in the= preliminary design stage and at this

point I am a go between to see= if there would be any interest in this product if and when it is=C2=A0= produced...........I personally am = interested this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 2= 0B are capable of truly

amazing power levels both naturally aspirate= d and turbo boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasai= r 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost = bolt in engine...........

The "Reno" Sport Class "Gla= sairs" and Lancairs" are producing almost 400 mph speeds using du= al turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual hand grenades pulling ove= r 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's pulling

1200 hp out in = the auto racing world with good reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ = hp is not even breathing hard.........IMHO

Would like to hear what i= nterest there may be in this product if and when it may be produced........= ....Or any comments pro or con..............=C2=A0=C2=A0<= br clear=3D"all">

--
Kelly Troyer




--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
--00000000000051534105a9fac05d--