X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=LooQsbCaLIKE2avGtE29Sg==:117 a=55z/sxGcUIPVrBMYBb4HRw==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=_Z_nqdSeG58A:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=DAwyPP_o2Byb1YXLmDAA:9 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=D3lCQDtURFgoGSuskkAA:9 a=NhuHcErnkD37XLft:21 a=Ew30p5iY52D02ozL:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=OJAZQCPpPQ8A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=1IjGjlC8IvfR68pmDXsA:9 a=yqiRLG9J90q36Zos:21 a=SS6d175jthwfItqw:21 a=puNOqDdVSCkdYlZM:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: " 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pg1-f180.google.com ([209.85.215.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 359441 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:34:19 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.180; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-pg1-f180.google.com with SMTP id d10so3087622pgn.4 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:34:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language; bh=PoigjzgciXufM3rmE8hXfftDgeI3Dx9fpYUmevCfhYQ=; b=XztfQcOBtZ2ZaRTZe4jdifJQYJbk4OIHrD1Dgq7N/yP2icu/b8jbosi+/os1BIGmSn jB/PgFVjIffwCXjLsrGDTS/wNFD8Bn6RRuQyVtSvIbEoCNwESpNp7zuqlVyP0MZBQ5qX 60KESWb90GYKrkNA0ei0iI039e31SreX7d+9qf1Dfv66UwuSZ6C1aY3h6iWLaZExFIJZ 8h8wlVV1rgPO5TEXubsIzezL89NSQXkJhwSpLx+jXVlxAE1uePEOOMrwEemnXbfWpc2R vE7+cf0GPJcJXHmces05MhmcqeQ4eoG80Eai3MVMg6KlhHqJKG9CguU3/fG4Cu0C4PjK HkaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=PoigjzgciXufM3rmE8hXfftDgeI3Dx9fpYUmevCfhYQ=; b=o65ScT2glpFngKp6rm1+Z+mOnhi8e7H5jD4lbxOOqoEy6L5gAfQM/A+1UsTLk5YgOU wcIKHURpuwp1/Toh4Y6VXCCsfZP1sSc5dIdNMz5nHOeb8ItokwCwR7I3oyPRIpNBCld3 quaTcof7Z47rqiMa1BGGBmQq4oIdClUhKB3o3bbxqth7G3FMwgmbkwPrzefYknQT/iYh fV6CP8+YSvqZwKXLkMeemWdtmQf9XvS5nWxxmn5nx3j1kIFu7eMeCtFE24Zx/18gyuhx b/H4avjSUYHEm1PLFAijttMXYjfaSX0oN5IDIbpXD+i2mYLAauZh5F1t5iulGdFxH4G4 N0Ug== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531QitgrqZE+HG2a+CwuxVVdpjhSFhQFNxOEHhRpintnv4nhf7W/ 18t/rouRDQye9te2JvjKvHMAlZnX X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz4j512WshUfJ1UKyxED5TTJHgpYhaC8b/d6qbp0cRI4cNeFp33vnlZNxaVN324kc3/n0HRXw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:5d62:: with SMTP id o34mr8158608pgm.420.1591911242316; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from UserPC ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s11sm3850735pfh.204.2020.06.11.14.34.00 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:34:01 -0700 (PDT) To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Pump Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 07:33:58 +1000 Message-ID: <001e01d64038$05cff7b0$116fe710$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01D6408B.D77C07B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIeMM+yCGxNvCWl4BE7RpOoFhYgjahEDhEg Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01D6408B.D77C07B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lyn, Brilliant and fascinating as usual, nothing like = experience. Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Friday, June 12, 2020 3:01 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Pump =20 Not exactly. The radiator is surly a big restriction to flow. In a case = where the water pump can force a bit too much water through the radiator = per second, then the problem arises. The pump establishes a differential = pressure in the system so that flow will occur. So, the pressure side of = the pump produces higher pressure, and the suction side produces a lower = pressure. So long as the low pressure side combined with a high enough = pressure stays below the boiling point of water (or coolant) there is no = problem. In high school we pulled a vacuum on a jug half full of water. = Plugged up the inlet of the jug. Now put your hand on the side of the = jug......the water boils where ever you touch the jug. But how is this = possible says the teacher??? Water boils at 100C or 212F.......The = answer is that both pressure and temperature determine the boiling point = of water. So, that 100C or 212F is only good at sea level............or 14.7 PSI = And nowhere else.......So how much heat must I add, or how much pressure = must I remove to get boiling on the inlet side of my pump? =20 Why, not much at all.=20 =20 If you are already at 190 degrees some people think 200 degrees is not = outlandish.....Just put your hand on the jug......and Presto....boiling. = It is difficult to come up with a new way to destroy a rotary engine. = There are some who seem to be working on just that. Years ago we raced a = RX-2 with a junk engine in it. The driver was doing well following a = Corvette. A misplace end wrench fell out of the Corvette and went = through out radiator. The coolant blew out in a lap. The driver (ODed on brain chemicals) did = not notice the pegged temp gage and later the no temp on the same gage. = Finished the race (about 20 miles at full throttle). Came into the pits = and turned off the engine...........no good. Engine is white hot. = Running on glow plugs (what was left of the spark plug tips) I had him = hold the brakes and declutch in 4th gear. Engine stopped....and = screeched and whistled and moaned for about 15 minutes............ The pulleys the crank and = plug wires were OK....nothing else. =20 So, a legally dead rotary may be better than a badly hurt Lycoming. when = the power goes away, airspeed, hit nearest. leave on full throttle, = announce your intentions, fly the plane. You got the engine from a junk = yard. You are renting the plane from an insurance company.Only you cannot be = replaced with a phone call....................... =20 So. water make up bottle as in RX-2 RX-3 RX-4. Stant (lever) pressure = cap 22 to 26 pounds. 10% glycol in distilled water. 1/2 teaspoon of Dawn dishwashing detergent. Change = coolant often and insides will be clean and less difficult to cool. Oil = coolers should be way too big with too much air supply. =20 The engines are about 28% efficient. So the rest of all of those BTUs = must be removed by your cooling systems. (and the exhaust system). =20 There may be no truth at all in the above and below information. My = guess is as good as yours. LEH =20 In a message dated 6/11/2020 7:30:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, = flyrotary@lancaironline.net = writes:=20 =20 Thanks for that. Great information!=20 =20 So it seems that the radiator flow restriction itself is not adequate, = in some circumstances, to avoid cavitation. =20 I remember with my Midwest they dictated a coolant reservoir just prior = and superior to the pump. Was that their way to prevent cavitation? =20 Now comes, at least to me, the age old question as to the advisably of = using an electric coolant pump. If used, and/or successful, do these = need a restricter or is one built into the unit or they, as was = expressed by the late Paul, totally worthless? =20 Rich Sent from my iPhone On Jun 11, 2020, at 1:30 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com = > wrote: Cavitation is caused by a spot of low pressure. So a tiny imperfection = in the face of the impeller would be the start of each event. It could = be a sand blow hole. It could be an imperfect bit of machining......Note = that impellers are sand cast crap. Not machined on every surface at all. = So many variations in shape and surface finish......or" as cast" as you = may have seen on many drawings. This is because almost any shape at all = would work well as an impeller in a pressurized system. It looks like = hell because it doesn't matter what it looks like. Works just fine in a = car...........Pumps for more critical installations have impellers that = are 100% machined and polished. Even a stamped steel impeller is a big = step up in performance and reliability due to a more uniform shape. More = modern pumps have smaller yet better performing impellers due to the = interest in fuel mileage. More fluid flow for lower power input. =20 I ran my engines with a 5/8" hole on the outlet to the radiator. At = first I made a restricter mounted where the=20 the normal thermostat would have been. Years later I built it into the = Norice or, the aluminum water outlet to the radiator. I never had a cooling problem in 30 years of racing. = But I also know that more than 1/3 of the total cooling load is in the = oil. I cooled the oil and the water stayed below 180 degrees. I used = three 44 row Setrab oil coolers. Your results may vary...............LEH =20 In a message dated 6/10/2020 12:01:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, = flyrotary@lancaironline.net = writes:=20 =20 OK, but then why just one blade? Finn On 6/10/2020 11:34 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com = wrote: All of the rotary stuff left here with the last race car, so there is = nothing to look at. So...this will be a guess. =20 12-A before 74. =20 A look at the front iron could tell the tale. Mazda kept removing bolts = from anything they could, so, more bolt holes generally means older = piece. =20 Cavitation damage can be caused by letting the pump output outrun the = suction side supply. So just limiting the output a bit with a restricter = eliminates this kind of damage. If you have seen a water jet cut = through a 1/2" steel plate you might think this could happen on one long = test flight................... =20 LEH =20 =20 In a message dated 6/9/2020 1:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, = flyrotary@lancaironline.net = writes:=20 =20 Ryan, is it possible your water pump is off an old 12A? Lynn Hanover is on this list and would be able to answer anything about = 12A's ... maybe reach out to him directly in the subject line?? Jeff =20 -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Whaley Sent: June-09-20 8:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Water Pump =20 Hello Ryan, this is a photo of my water pump from a 1988 13B ... Jeff =20 =20 All, =20 Can anyone point me towards the correct water pump? The one in the top = of the photo is the correct one. The one on the bottom is obviously = incorrect. It's the second one we've ordered. The first one that I ordered looked identical to my original one. = However, when it arrived it was similar, but about 1/3 smaller than = mine. When I ordered this second one we all (Carquest employees) poured = over the pictures to make sure it was correct. When it arrived it had = one less bolt hole than the one in their pictures. I have a Powersport 13B. Any ideas what pump they ran and where a guy = can order one =20 Thanks, Ryan =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01D6408B.D77C07B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Lyn,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Brilliant and fascinating as usual, nothing like = experience.=C2=A0 Neil.

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, June 12, = 2020 3:01 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Water Pump

 

Not= exactly. The radiator is surly a big restriction to flow. In a case = where the water pump can force a bit too much water through the radiator = per second, then the problem arises. The pump establishes a differential = pressure in the system so that flow will occur. So, the pressure side of = the pump produces higher pressure, and the suction side produces a lower = pressure. So long as the low pressure side combined with a high enough = pressure stays below the boiling point of water (or coolant) there is no = problem. In high school we pulled a vacuum on a jug half full of water. = Plugged up the inlet of the jug. Now put your hand on the side of the = jug......the water boils where ever you touch the jug.  But how is = this possible says the teacher??? Water boils at 100C or 212F.......The = answer is that both pressure and temperature determine the boiling point = of water.

So,= that 100C or 212F is only good at sea level............or 14.7 = PSI  And nowhere else.......So how much heat must I add, or how = much pressure must I remove to get boiling on the inlet side of my = pump? 

Why= , not much at all.

 

If = you are already at 190 degrees some people think 200 degrees is not = outlandish.....Just put your hand on the jug......and = Presto....boiling.  It is difficult to come up with a new way to = destroy a rotary engine.  There are some who seem to be working on = just that. Years ago we raced a RX-2 with a junk engine in it. The = driver was doing well following a Corvette. A misplace end wrench fell = out of the Corvette and went through out = radiator.

The= coolant blew out in a lap. The driver (ODed on brain chemicals) did not = notice the pegged temp gage and later the no temp on the same gage. = Finished the race (about 20 miles at full throttle). Came into the pits = and turned off the engine...........no good. Engine is white hot. = Running on glow plugs (what was left of the spark plug tips) I had him = hold the brakes and declutch in 4th gear. Engine stopped....and = screeched and whistled

and= moaned for about 15 minutes............ The pulleys the crank and plug = wires were OK....nothing else.

 

So,= a legally dead rotary may be better than a badly hurt Lycoming. when = the power goes away, airspeed, hit nearest. leave on full throttle, = announce your intentions, fly the plane. You got the engine from a junk = yard.

You= are renting the plane from an insurance company.Only you cannot be = replaced with a phone = call.......................

 

So.= water make up bottle as in RX-2 RX-3 RX-4. Stant (lever) pressure cap = 22 to 26 pounds. 10% glycol

in = distilled water. 1/2 teaspoon of Dawn dishwashing detergent. Change = coolant often and insides will be clean and less difficult to cool. Oil = coolers should be way too big with too much air = supply.

 

The= engines are about 28% efficient.  So the rest of all of those BTUs = must be removed by your cooling systems. (and the exhaust = system).

 

The= re may be no truth at all in the above and below information.  My = guess is as good as yours.

LEH=

 

In a message = dated 6/11/2020 7:30:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Thanks for that. Great = information!

Rich

Cav= itation is caused by a spot of low pressure. So a tiny imperfection in = the face of the impeller would be the start of each event. It could be a = sand blow hole. It could be an imperfect bit of machining......Note that = impellers are sand cast crap. Not machined on every surface at all. So = many variations in shape and surface finish......or" as = cast"  as you may have seen on many drawings.  This is = because almost any shape at all would work well as an impeller in a = pressurized system. It looks like hell because it doesn't matter what it = looks like. Works just fine in a car...........Pumps for more critical = installations have impellers that are 100% machined and polished. Even a = stamped steel impeller is a big step up in performance and reliability = due to a more uniform shape. More modern pumps have smaller yet better = performing impellers due to the interest in fuel mileage. More fluid = flow for lower power input.

 

I = ran my engines with a 5/8" hole on the outlet to the radiator. At = first I made a restricter mounted where = the 

the= normal thermostat would have been. Years later I built it into the = Norice or, the aluminum water outlet

to = the radiator. I never had a cooling problem in 30 years of racing. But I = also know that more than 1/3 of the total cooling load is in the oil. I = cooled the oil and the water stayed below 180 degrees. I used three 44 = row Setrab oil coolers. Your results may = vary...............LEH

 

In a message = dated 6/10/2020 12:01:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: =

 

OK, but then why just = one blade?

Finn

On 6/10/2020 11:34 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com = wrote:

All= of the rotary stuff left here with the last race car,  so there is = nothing to look at. So...this will be a = guess.

 

12-= A before 74.

 

A = look at the front iron could tell the tale. Mazda kept removing bolts = from anything they could, so, more bolt holes generally  means = older piece.

 

Cav= itation damage can be caused by letting the pump output outrun the = suction side supply. So just limiting the output a bit with a restricter = eliminates this kind of damage.  If you have seen a water jet cut = through a 1/2" steel plate you might think this could happen on one = long test flight...................

 

LEH=      

 

In a message = dated 6/9/2020 1:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: =

 

Ryan, is it possible your water pump is off an old = 12A?

Lynn Hanover is on = this list and would be able to answer anything about 12A's ... maybe = reach out to him directly in the subject = line??

Jeff

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff Whaley

Sent: June-09-20 8:02 AM

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft

Subject: RE: = [FlyRotary] Water Pump

 

Hello Ryan, this is a photo of my water pump from a = 1988 13B ...  Jeff

 

 

All,

 

Can anyone point me towards the correct water pump? = The one in the top of the photo is the correct one. The one on the = bottom is obviously incorrect. It's the second one we've = ordered.

The first one = that I ordered looked identical to my original one.  However, when = it arrived it was similar, but about 1/3 smaller than mine. When I = ordered this second one we all (Carquest employees) poured over the = pictures to make sure it was correct. When it arrived it had one less = bolt hole than the one in their pictures.

I have a Powersport 13B. Any ideas what pump they ran = and where a guy can order one

 

Thanks,

Ryan

 

--

 

=
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