X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=BMg5uwImetesxz4vmnqzIg==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=Fee85h93u3AA:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=XCnkGLEC4lIA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=rA8MJeW1BGMcUyohMXIA:9 a=rH8uixQD2HWkU9-t:21 a=b9tspbvRg1nK4nDc:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=OJAZQCPpPQ8A:10 a=_wv7eb16ZPDku0lm03cA:9 a=8V6EcZFw0D3Ws-ml:21 a=qAOTmsRjuGdA_d7r:21 a=n0gpPHTWb4esy04D:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "lehanover lehanover@aol.com" Received: from sonic302-3.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.135.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 358421 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:01:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.6.135.42; envelope-from=lehanover@aol.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1591894884; bh=IK4iVtp+hxd2OY0RzyxrsANdNF+Qtmt1D/NIdKTp6Bk=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=BPZKlD+lO8oGpbUW3t/X+YCD+DJp+dAZrFe+lQRaZ4XK87wS5AzvTTqHA/xMBp/+agNqR4KVmISIYnt9+Ik55DnvjBfN/yg2g4PyDX0nj7TyJhlrMyUR6peh+388l2K4lJ/tYZgpXAnr0gkrRwfbM18RLfrbqcGqzzzH6ze+W3lxjIm7JyL0oCWQ3Gxt3iAYKQl/LqGi6vIicFtwR2YDsk7gYcp03lCE+EgzrlOM6Gr0zDhLmkOH9wSxYl9HSv+uFZz3grpTzR2Az698ArRK6iOgUM1Tz92kW8wmtY5sJhH97YzkvYIkTwWTbyVt8yC30SqNHmD3h6C0IrAgbu7bTA== X-YMail-OSG: rb_H5RMVM1lXv5yJ2tkUovGjuLo.LbwifVhMF_CYr7spRLRQmxyjSljsSWUSAxe XylcCJxfw1sU.Y0yHFl0DITenD8QmsX9K2OiYCa8y4LzbeU.EFfwL1UITtBSBz0L4XCzwlJwFjnX CXE5qnXTlzC0ET6jHkfSRz6XxyPrGg6u69iPO8YG3qopy5eFU2nODPOBOCe5f_0wmG_iLkwXBjNf bHhObFtsXmwZeFXkfSmOOGcuqUuSoCk_Vu_dn00H2q9qkJuAcxtV5Qi_bNt2TIk.GWx_kxgnxACp okEud0TwjNegBABWEqWmMLHgezkAh0fALMAcguedWlhQux.CcLslsqybhDvjsvI5EbadtQzADhaE 39h2bt7mGMKn1ZcLTzgW9GuybXUENe0Vxli3HRhWWb4e_73zNO5wDv2w6krnGZBma2JgceTysNTh NaAqRh5F5Y7zsNdQfujgomi9cWwkvD7FqsJvkSAuAhGYDzewzg0zZ9hhSfT.q17GICj2gk9R8ibF QyqEoX5Udfjg5Dn16KHYetegwj8TdJEynuQFJPBwedonbj_8OY6Cgaqh2p20.drtTqQ3R.6tPP7o L.K3q6SdTHrYQSHwkgunV4P2UOvFTNAd6qEwNeMa35QitO1d2oCpS_Ih01xK52TSNeY8ZXkZM1sW YLSrywV96kP8h7F2g2cSHnsGPWFLp0UGeEfa2dsqKAV7D6RO60PVKIz2bgHCUU2fV9OoZ_k15f7H Nlwo_AK1qsm7ehl7Ftiym1oY6dUblG8eydOz9HlyPLD2_.riCL.COtPGAQdGXcxRS8KjniVrOQVU Wuer39Tt5lhV15EMO3TKe.67bYCo860dC8nzlBtPpsoa30Gu8vmN.C4_n1HV_ERCOYsDBksyDG_F abhSp3R8pVWBumDNEEUWBUyd8X9rWrAvdE9it3aySCPyWjLXNyaPUfQ6R8m7kmZuKDnfOlp2KdeQ 2HNnTOTSMP1LfhjGORL53805TnTt2VUqE7b_D_nmV4Do2ejHaqardr6e3Ckaq_CypfQw_urj0LXX jAfQ5S4GstaDerfLqK_7E5sknHwBirmnUC3yFzOgs1wYaKDrJBtK7yp4_XpBzF38kHASMAjRm80o WCp41w_APxLZ_2lUBP.0MW_84deIrsligKb.xKjUGccLPQvfCnFCThz7iimJKjpanwSfijNHjwHM dnoCjs5pRVGLJvdiGapWodBxlJ8BJtb5f6b.VPp.PCVXmrGyobAH_SP.lHqu5wu5tYkotdKz.yIf DLjbRQkKCgEfdCxfn22uNsbW_NotCwTRWQeYu6pMjUhqUCqU3nFw5Othsohn8CuA- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:01:24 +0000 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:01:22 +0000 (UTC) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message-ID: <700001481.2006975.1591894882509@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Pump MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2006974_64382939.1591894882506" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16072 aolloki Apache-HttpClient/4.5.7 (Java/1.8.0_144) Content-Length: 21497 ------=_Part_2006974_64382939.1591894882506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not exactly. The radiator is surly a big restriction to flow. In a case whe= re the water pump can force a bit too much water through the radiator per s= econd, then the problem arises. The pump establishes a differential pressur= e in the system so that flow will occur. So, the pressure side of the pump = produces higher pressure, and the suction side produces a lower pressure. S= o long as the low pressure side combined with a high enough pressure stays = below the boiling point of water (or coolant) there is no problem. In high = school we pulled a vacuum on a jug half full of water. Plugged up the inlet= of the jug. Now put your hand on the side of the jug......the water boils = where ever you touch the jug.=C2=A0 But how is this possible says the teach= er??? Water boils at 100C or 212F.......The answer is that both pressure an= d temperature determine the boiling point of water.So, that 100C or 212F is= only good at sea level............or 14.7 PSI=C2=A0 And nowhere else......= .So how much heat must I add, or how much pressure must I remove to get boi= ling on the inlet side of my pump?=C2=A0=20 Why, not much at all.=20 If you are already at 190 degrees some people think 200 degrees is not outl= andish.....Just put your hand on the jug......and Presto....boiling.=C2=A0 = It is difficult to come up with a new way to destroy a rotary engine.=C2=A0= There are some who seem to be working on just that. Years ago we raced a R= X-2 with a junk engine in it. The driver was doing well following a Corvett= e. A misplace end wrench fell out of the Corvette and went through out radi= ator.The coolant blew out in a lap. The driver (ODed on brain chemicals) di= d not notice the pegged temp gage and later the no temp on the same gage. F= inished the race (about 20 miles at full throttle). Came into the pits and = turned off the engine...........no good. Engine is white hot. Running on gl= ow plugs (what was left of the spark plug tips) I had him hold the brakes a= nd declutch in 4th gear. Engine stopped....and screeched and whistledand mo= aned for about 15 minutes............ The pulleys the crank and plug wires = were OK....nothing else. So, a legally dead rotary may be better than a badly hurt Lycoming. when th= e power goes away, airspeed, hit nearest. leave on full throttle, announce = your intentions, fly the plane. You got the engine from a junk yard.You are= renting the plane from an insurance company.Only you cannot be replaced wi= th a phone call....................... So. water make up bottle as in RX-2 RX-3 RX-4. Stant (lever) pressure cap 2= 2 to 26 pounds. 10% glycolin distilled water. 1/2 teaspoon of Dawn dishwash= ing detergent. Change coolant often and insides will be clean and less diff= icult to cool. Oil coolers should be way too big with too much air supply. The engines are about 28% efficient.=C2=A0 So the rest of all of those BTUs= must be removed by your cooling systems. (and the exhaust system). =20 There may be no truth at all in the above and below information.=C2=A0 My g= uess is as good as yours.LEH In a message dated 6/11/2020 7:30:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes: Thanks for that. Great information! So it seems that the radiator flow restriction itself is not adequate, in s= ome circumstances, to avoid cavitation. I remember with my Midwest they dictated a coolant reservoir just prior and= superior to the pump. Was that their way to prevent cavitation? Now comes, at least to me, the age old question as to the advisably of usin= g an electric coolant pump. If used, and/or =C2=A0successful, do these need= a restricter or is one built into the unit or they, as was expressed by th= e late Paul, totally worthless? Rich Sent from my iPhone On Jun 11, 2020, at 1:30 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote: Cavitation is caused by a spot of low pressure. So a tiny imperfection in t= he face of the impeller would be the start of each event. It could be a san= d blow hole. It could be an imperfect bit of machining......Note that impel= lers are sand cast crap. Not machined on every surface at all. So many vari= ations in shape and surface finish......or" as cast"=C2=A0 as you may have = seen on many drawings.=C2=A0 This is because almost any shape at all would = work well as an impeller in a pressurized system. It looks like hell becaus= e it doesn't matter what it looks like. Works just fine in a car...........= Pumps for more critical installations have impellers that are 100% machined= and polished. Even a stamped steel impeller is a big step up in performanc= e and reliability due to a more uniform shape. More modern pumps have small= er yet better performing impellers due to the interest in fuel mileage. Mor= e fluid flow for lower power input. I ran my engines with a 5/8" hole on the outlet to the radiator. At first I= made a restricter mounted where the=C2=A0 the normal thermostat would have been. Years later I built it into the Nori= ce or, the aluminum water outletto the radiator. I never had a cooling prob= lem in 30 years of racing. But I also know that more than 1/3 of the total = cooling load is in the oil. I cooled the oil and the water stayed below 180= degrees. I used three 44 row Setrab oil coolers. Your results may vary....= ...........LEH In a message dated 6/10/2020 12:01:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net writes: OK, but then why just one blade? Finn On 6/10/2020 11:34 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote: All of the rotary stuff left here with the last race car,=C2=A0 so there is= nothing to look at. So...this will be a guess. 12-A before 74. A look at the front iron could tell the tale. Mazda kept removing bolts fro= m anything they could, so, more bolt holes generally=C2=A0 means older piec= e. Cavitation damage can be caused by letting the pump output outrun the sucti= on side supply. So just limiting the output a bit with a restricter elimina= tes this kind of damage.=C2=A0 If you have seen a water jet cut through a 1= /2" steel plate you might think this could happen on one long test flight..= ................. LEH=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In a message dated 6/9/2020 1:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lan= caironline.net writes: Ryan, is it possible your water pump is off an old 12A?Lynn Hanover is on t= his list and would be able to answer anything about 12A's ... maybe reach o= ut to him directly in the subject line??Jeff -----Original Message-----From: Jeff WhaleySent: June-09-20 8:02 AMTo: Rota= ry motors in aircraftSubject: RE: [FlyRotary] Water Pump Hello Ryan, this is a photo of my water pump from a 1988 13B ...=C2=A0 Jeff All,=C2=A0=20 Can anyone point me towards the correct water pump? The one in the top of = the photo is the correct one. The one on the bottom is obviously incorrect.= It's the second one we've ordered.The first one that I ordered looked iden= tical to my original one.=C2=A0 However, when it arrived it was similar, bu= t about 1/3 smaller than mine. When I ordered this second one we all (Carqu= est employees) poured over the pictures to make sure it was correct. When i= t arrived it had one less bolt hole than the one in their pictures.I have a= Powersport 13B. Any ideas what pump they ran and where a guy can order one Thanks,Ryan --Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 http://= mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_Part_2006974_64382939.1591894882506 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not exactly. The radiator is surly a big restriction = to flow. In a case where the water pump can force a bit too much water thro= ugh the radiator per second, then the problem arises. The pump establishes = a differential pressure in the system so that flow will occur. So, the pres= sure side of the pump produces higher pressure, and the suction side produc= es a lower pressure. So long as the low pressure side combined with a high = enough pressure stays below the boiling point of water (or coolant) there i= s no problem. In high school we pulled a vacuum on a jug half full of water= . Plugged up the inlet of the jug. Now put your hand on the side of the jug= ......the water boils where ever you touch the jug.  But how is this p= ossible says the teacher??? Water boils at 100C or 212F.......The answer is= that both pressure and temperature determine the boiling point of water.
So, that 100C or 212F is only good at sea level......= ......or 14.7 PSI  And nowhere else.......So how much heat must I add,= or how much pressure must I remove to get boiling on the inlet side of my = pump? 
Why, not much at all.

If you are already at 190 degrees some people think 2= 00 degrees is not outlandish.....Just put your hand on the jug......and Pre= sto....boiling.  It is difficult to come up with a new way to destroy = a rotary engine.  There are some who seem to be working on just that. = Years ago we raced a RX-2 with a junk engine in it. The driver was doing we= ll following a Corvette. A misplace end wrench fell out of the Corvette and= went through out radiator.
The coolant blew out in a lap. The driver (ODed on br= ain chemicals) did not notice the pegged temp gage and later the no temp on= the same gage. Finished the race (about 20 miles at full throttle). Came i= nto the pits and turned off the engine...........no good. Engine is white h= ot. Running on glow plugs (what was left of the spark plug tips) I had him = hold the brakes and declutch in 4th gear. Engine stopped....and screeched a= nd whistled
and moaned for about 15 minutes............ The pulle= ys the crank and plug wires were OK....nothing else.

So, a legally dead rotary may be better than a badly = hurt Lycoming. when the power goes away, airspeed, hit nearest. leave on fu= ll throttle, announce your intentions, fly the plane. You got the engine fr= om a junk yard.
You are renting the plane from an insurance company.O= nly you cannot be replaced with a phone call.......................<= /div>

So. water make up bottle as in RX-2 RX-3 RX-4. Stant = (lever) pressure cap 22 to 26 pounds. 10% glycol
in distilled water. 1/2 teaspoon of Dawn dishwashing = detergent. Change coolant often and insides will be clean and less difficul= t to cool. Oil coolers should be way too big with too much air supply.
<= /span>

The engines are about 28% efficient.  So the res= t of all of those BTUs must be removed by your cooling systems. (and the ex= haust system).

There may be no truth at all in the above and below i= nformation.  My guess is as good as yours.
LEH

In a message dated 6/11/2020 7:30:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes:

Thanks for that. Great information!

So it seems that the radiator flow restriction itself is not adequate,= in some circumstances, to avoid cavitation.

I remember with my Midwest they dictated a coolant reservoir just prio= r and superior to the pump. Was that their way to prevent cavitation?

Now comes, at least to me, the age old question as to the advisably of= using an electric coolant pump. If used, and/or  successful, do these= need a restricter or is one built into the unit or they, as was expressed = by the late Paul, totally worthless?

Rich

Sent from my iPhone=

On Jun 11, 2020, at 1:30 AM, lehanover lehanov= er@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wr= ote:

Cavitation is caused by a spot of low pressure. So a = tiny imperfection in the face of the impeller would be the start of each ev= ent. It could be a sand blow hole. It could be an imperfect bit of machinin= g......Note that impellers are sand cast crap. Not machined on every surfac= e at all. So many variations in shape and surface finish......or" as cast"&= nbsp; as you may have seen on many drawings.  This is= because almost any shape at all would work well as an impeller in a pressu= rized system. It looks like hell because it doesn't matter what it looks li= ke. Works just fine in a car...........Pumps for more critical installation= s have impellers that are 100% machined and polished. Even a stamped steel = impeller is a big step up in performance and reliability due to a more unif= orm shape. More modern pumps have smaller yet better performing impellers d= ue to the interest in fuel mileage. More fluid flow for lower power input.<= br>

I ran my engines with a 5/8" hole on= the outlet to the radiator. At first I made a restricter mounted where the=  
the normal thermostat would have bee= n. Years later I built it into the Norice or, the aluminum water outlet
to the radiator. I never had a cooli= ng problem in 30 years of racing. But I also know that more than 1/3 of the= total cooling load is in the oil. I cooled the oil and the water stayed be= low 180 degrees. I used three 44 row Setrab oil coolers. Your results may v= ary...............LEH

In a message dated 6/10/2020 12:01:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

OK, but then why just one blade= ?

Finn

On 6/10/2020 11:34 AM, lehanover lehanover@aol.com wrote:
All of the rotary stuff left here with the last race = car,  so there is nothing to look at. So...this will be a guess.

12-A before 74.

A look at the front iron could tell the tale. Mazda k= ept removing bolts from anything they could, so, more bolt holes generally&= nbsp; means older piece.

Cavitation damage can be caused by letting the pump o= utput outrun the suction side supply. So just limiting the output a bit wit= h a restricter eliminates this kind of damage.  If you have seen a wat= er jet cut through a 1/2" steel plate you might think this could happen on = one long test flight...................

LEH     

In a message dated 6/9/2020 1:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net writes:

Ryan, is it possible your water pump is off an old 12A?
Lynn Hanover is on this list and would be able to answer a= nything about 12A's ... maybe reach out to him directly in the subject line= ??
Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Whaley
Sent: June-09-20 8:02 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Water Pump

Hello Ryan, this is a photo of my water pump from a 1988 1= 3B ...  Jeff


All,
 
Can anyone point me towards the correct water pump? The on= e in the top of the photo is the correct one. The one on the bottom is obvi= ously incorrect. It's the second one we've ordered.
The first one that I ordered looked identical to my origin= al one.  However, when it arrived it was similar, but about 1/3 smalle= r than mine. When I ordered this second one we all (Carquest employees) pou= red over the pictures to make sure it was correct. When it arrived it had o= ne less bolt hole than the one in their pictures.
I have a Powersport 13B. Any ideas what pump they ran and = where a guy can order one

Thanks,
Ryan

--


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