From: "Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not?
Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 08:55:35 +0800
References: <list-290230@logan.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Message-Id: <84F36C64-64E1-43D1-9259-1CEC8F4DBE40@gmail.com>

I=E2=80=99ll be really keen to hear how the engine runs when you=E2=80=99v=
e had a chance to settle the initial tune.
I=E2=80=99m interested because my reprogram of the EC3 chips yielded a =
spluttering backfiring mess!
Does a Harley sound like a spluttering backfiring mess?
Its as if the timing of the ignition was all out. I thought between us =
we had the software fuses right, but wondered if some debug stuff was =
messing things up.
In the mean time I=E2=80=99m using my EC2 which I did reprogram years =
ago myself and is all good.

Steve

> On 26 May 2020, at 8:47 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>=20
> Thanks Steve, makes sense now.
>=20
> Finn
>=20
> On 5/25/2020 6:50 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
>> Hi Finn
>>=20
>> Its about the differential pressure across the injector when its =
switched on.
>> If the fuel rail  stayed constant pressure, but the pressure in the =
manifold/port varies, as it does with throttle position&rpm, the fuel =
flow will vary (not good).
>> With the regulator tracking manifold pressure then the injectors =
always pass the same amount of fuel per time open.
>>=20
>> Steve Izett
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 26 May 2020, at 6:44 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> I wish I knew what type my sensors are. I'm assuming absolute, but =
is there a way to tell?
>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272759060859
>>> Using the 80 psi one for fuel.
>>>=20
>>> Yes, MAP port on fuel regulator connected to MAP sensors in EC3 and =
then to intake plenum after throttle body.
>>>=20
>>> So, lower MAP =3D more air?
>>> More air, more fuel, higher fuel pressure?
>>>=20
>>> Seems I got the opposite from the brief log run.
>>>=20
>>> But the EC3 changes fuel flow based on MAP, so don't quite =
understand the need for varying the fuel pressure.
>>>=20
>>> Bear with me, I'm new to EFI.
>>>=20
>>> Finn
>>>=20
>>> On 5/25/2020 4:38 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> If the regulator has a MAP port and it's connected to the intake, =
then fuel pressure should vary with MAP. That's supposed to keep fuel =
flow proportional to airflow. But MAP is absolute; fuel pressure =
measurement will depend on the type of sensor (relative to atmospheric, =
or absolute).
>>>>=20
>>>> I wouldn't attach any significance to bubbles in the return line; =
the regulator is venting (spitting) fuel through what can be a tiny =
slit, into the relatively free air of the return line.
>>>>=20
>>>> Charlie
>>>>=20
>>>> On 5/25/2020 2:57 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
>>>>> Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the =
fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect for =
bubbles.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like =
the fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's =
supposed to work?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Finn
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen =
finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Good point. =46rom the log I think it was running lean. I'm =
temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll hook a =
multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from sensor to EC3 and =
EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to read the EC3 manual  :)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could have =
milled recesses to retain them from expanding out under pressure they =
might work. But an o-ring between two flat surfaces is probably bad =
design. If sucking air, won't I see that in the return line as bubbles?
>>>>>> You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is loss =
of power if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've got a couple =
of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. They've both =
had forced landings (one of them multiple times) before they found that =
the ancient flex lines feeding the fuel pump had dried out and were =
porous to air but not fuel. Never leaked fuel, but would intermittently =
suck air and cause engine stoppage.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Finn
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com =
wrote:
>>>>>>> Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they idle =
ok in the car without one. ;-)
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even =
better than fuel.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
>>>>>>>> Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2).
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Ran for the first time today (no prop).
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :(
>>>>>>>> No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if =
something else wrong.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the =
instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from the EC3, so =
I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3.
>>>>>>>> EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0".
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly =
around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi (engine not =
running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix before I try running again. =
Gas is cheap, but not that cheap. I'll try copper washers on the =
pressure (output) side instead of the o-rings.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an =
angle :(
>>>>>>>> Too lazy to redo the output block.
>>>>>>>> I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low =
RPM.
>>>>>>>> Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come =
on-line.
>>>>>>>> Didn't log the run where that worked.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :)
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Finn
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com =
wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Great work Finn
>>>>>>>>> Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info =
for the build.
>>>>>>>>> I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran =
like a dog.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassen =
finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I =
finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board =
right, chips programmed and EC3 installed.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug =
firing.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the =
engine.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :(
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Finn
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassen
>>>>>>>>>> finn.lassen@verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> 1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU =
and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> 2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air =
through rads and oil cooler.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Finn
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Homepage:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
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