X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=MvlwEDyywG5MngySn19H1g==:117 a=sTwFKg_x9MkA:10 a=nbwDJ09AQ6IA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pjdaNNIBAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=ABsmAmge5rCLrovTyH8A:9 a=P-oAF1H_5e5hjk0o:21 a=fhwj-7qsdfXPKeHr:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=nEnVYLaV5Ba1yPEye9YA:9 a=b4kgGb6-bDne9spD:21 a=hb7k-e4If-GNamU4:21 a=8vdCq-7SzsYiWaea:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" Received: from sonic307-10.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.190.33] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 290227 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 May 2020 20:32:36 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.163.190.33; envelope-from=finn.lassen@verizon.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=verizon.net; s=a2048; t=1590453140; bh=p7IOn6/QebvCTPvEZAhwywpxs2su7CLaIm2Gm/dVO2s=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=TS3Wu32XWZ3qlgxp5BwW1UoT7XJ3r1pZ6EldVPc7Hu/aRLobdpxzUqWYqucziZUZZG6aEl+pNnj1C7N6VpqCN4LUeA1MLxt0x/uf2GPr3FvN12qzzdancjAbxbS/JeaNsZQdqhSMVMerCzJJ1il6td+bq78kyhFoNNHlSs+pVgMubBbuZ6bcEk85u07JcGdOWQ6CrLy4hagaY27FBAyVt7Q/U8GRobe6KjOZJO2StheuTOMyNQLqch0o0aIetirHUjydvMBonxVzNRLxtYCmCDdMDKqZHzPXOyPmhiIa0CsiV3ewWMzATyeZR5hgCf4o/oOCczWjp9lqkwPTdz5uzA== X-YMail-OSG: nt4iDhYVM1nRKLXYL2W4.Mc2jN5Ko8MDq_YPNqzTYzvY77tz3Zaw8M0R_IcM4of wfyUWnvj5.jeHB8BVnAKt7snvOaRqQKgMdDdBLE4jJ2itz8Al6fZcgrHoMJySUtS0s808Jnc8QnI 4MEvKH0vGK46Mo9WTXnWh7xoX4lVnW8hOY5_EJ5vEooUag3IXZ4MhsZAQBACZ2s8e6GYi3CfX1LE 44tWP.VW9BTT0OP0l0YcmWZqHhucQIiBCvAgrBSKmMj4wn3uU.tVLgXV7Y0JGZwbXZma6tryAyoY PRxrPWdsOeOI2Ohne3XGuEF0JnvGVIDyfyPzy0s9Il48PucmUS8DrDGSRo5j9sDPq.JzNRyxBL46 X7gJZkEt0TQwAvyrcN4l52gL5OW8e9tSGUGNrR1x5HnBrIm347oGaIPmU0NnS_cg.jvAHMSshg36 5iXG58HX5pbhw8hkOVNIIrpViYk08e6ULdOmKgBn3OVxUIemdkK2a7P8rUY_nemKk9cmwkPEZFtk 1i3R6Y8Z_uZmYKNc4gQlsklCWjpZ_KrHFtoYUOvBFz8dK9M6VcKrAMb9OqJFqiICjXeEbB5wYBD9 Y0VDODAJABUo6xSAJTSLuz8DezlvN4rNu2Pe6IcwDuY6Ok4_Q2MYJ8.80eS45iR1eluArwbhydNJ CC.Qxe6rYOdkdHRU.PTMjo2B.6Hd20QBY.wrUedJs6P0ZF08NN8Uj0GMT1ujqmEd7YLtW0pP1yto lZNAOH6giyb9H1QCHFb6u44oJuS03Q3k14tkRj9KfXFKrx7ho8GP2LR7yngjqeNbVVIBzh2027f_ honueJUh0dTRB8MVqPj4wJXLuJMzoIHrOAYvn13mrcPNySLv_IKkQL0p0JbfML24G_.l.E7dwMOu ggskp50xszN3FUWqK0.oHJZDAGdMsO0rCYtM5sVFQq_vGHlTeuk3CVmRwGJpcoPwRmOXnkQa26M7 e4Gcjk4TJjl9enbbf0sd1vWW33UitgS0JioUpYm1nE3.kMAKZfnwS9rmxKFXWaBJAiNnOJNov18R M.EH4NYj5WO57UA6u2wRLVQ1MNnxTQUcvc1NyT8yphmlGe1roVScpvy04nyMNcVRiJoBylPQc2Kb _hvz7EyS5dn8Q6CGqmL_vNgQgZsjL7WD5FnnPPqRMRdj578aCCW63vqdsCCAkLhXC9CubPuqm4s4 LpJZyjwZ.25YgPNJZMbvMccr9ofDzOjsU2_fg.RTpcc6QtK.HItdDh0933642_GMu8wuZdbwYBRs 3bYi1weKpHJ2sibGa_MYOu_ID2VUI0E3SF_mNAddw1_L0brDxYdodxynS.Q_ENcK_3tG8smIxlTL SnXJ7fs2HHyLK0zcJLShG_HRJh6oWssrcR0pysl0zVdmPO0kFIx1ohCbdk9EHkycItpBWB3g- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 26 May 2020 00:32:20 +0000 Received: by smtp420.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 425aaacc760709d4efd97c660b639d35; Tue, 26 May 2020 00:32:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not? To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <42d14582-115f-ddee-e4d8-3af2b071b9c0@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 20:32:13 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CA7F38C72BCC1F8CB94DAB9C" Content-Language: en-US X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15960 hermes_aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Content-Length: 28492 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CA7F38C72BCC1F8CB94DAB9C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OK. So with throttle closed there will be the highest vacuum (lowest MAP) and lowest air flow and fuel flow required. So it looks like it sort of worked. Any way to determine if my gauges are absolute or not? I guess I would have to put them in a chamber (or plastic bag) and apply vacuum (keeping the sensor input unchanged). If reading stays the same they are absolute. Right? Finn On 5/25/2020 6:52 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: > No; higher MAP is more air. It's an *absolute* measurement against > zero pressure (the A in MAP), unlike the old automotive measurement > which is *vacuum* against ambient pressure. > > Full throttle at sea level is ~29"; roughly the same as with the > engine off. > > On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 5:44 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net > > wrote: > > I wish I knew what type my sensors are. I'm assuming absolute, but > is there a way to tell? > https://www.ebay.com/itm/272759060859 > Using the 80 psi one for fuel. > > Yes, MAP port on fuel regulator connected to MAP sensors in EC3 > and then to intake plenum after throttle body. > > So, lower MAP = more air? > More air, more fuel, higher fuel pressure? > > Seems I got the opposite from the brief log run. > > But the EC3 changes fuel flow based on MAP, so don't quite > understand the need for varying the fuel pressure. > > Bear with me, I'm new to EFI. > > Finn > > On 5/25/2020 4:38 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com > wrote: >> If the regulator has a MAP port and it's connected to the intake, >> then fuel pressure should vary with MAP. That's supposed to keep >> fuel flow proportional to airflow. But MAP is absolute; fuel >> pressure measurement will depend on the type of sensor (relative >> to atmospheric, or absolute). >> >> I wouldn't attach any significance to bubbles in the return line; >> the regulator is venting (spitting) fuel through what can be a >> tiny slit, into the relatively free air of the return line. >> >> Charlie >> >> On 5/25/2020 2:57 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net >> wrote: >>> Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the >>> fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to >>> inspect for bubbles. >>> >>> How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like >>> the fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way >>> it's supposed to work? >>> >>> Finn >>> >>> On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen >>>> finn.lassen@verizon.net >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm >>>> temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll >>>> hook a multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from >>>> sensor to EC3 and EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to >>>> read the EC3 manual  :) >>>> >>>> Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could >>>> have milled recesses to retain them from expanding out >>>> under pressure they might work. But an o-ring between two >>>> flat surfaces is probably bad design. If sucking air, won't >>>> I see that in the return line as bubbles? >>>> >>>> You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is >>>> loss of power if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've >>>> got a couple of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe >>>> Swifts. They've both had forced landings (one of them multiple >>>> times) before they found that the ancient flex lines feeding >>>> the fuel pump had dried out and were porous to air but not >>>> fuel. Never leaked fuel, but would intermittently suck air and >>>> cause engine stoppage. >>>> >>>> Charlie >>>> >>>> >>>> Finn >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com >>>> wrote: >>>>> Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they >>>>> idle ok in the car without one. ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air >>>>> even better than fuel. >>>>> >>>>> Charlie >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2). >>>>>> >>>>>> Ran for the first time today (no prop). >>>>>> >>>>>> Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :( >>>>>> No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if >>>>>> something else wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>> Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the >>>>>> instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM >>>>>> from the EC3, so I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3. >>>>>> EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0". >>>>>> >>>>>> Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking >>>>>> badly around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to >>>>>> 37psi (engine not running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need >>>>>> to fix before I try running again. Gas is cheap, but not >>>>>> that cheap. I'll try copper washers on the pressure >>>>>> (output) side instead of the o-rings. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at >>>>>> an angle :( >>>>>> Too lazy to redo the output block. >>>>>> I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink. >>>>>> >>>>>> Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of >>>>>> low RPM. >>>>>> Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come >>>>>> on-line. >>>>>> Didn't log the run where that worked. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :) >>>>>> >>>>>> Finn >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett >>>>>> stephen.izett@gmail.com >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Great work Finn >>>>>>> Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build. >>>>>>> I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassenfinn.lassen@verizon.net >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed and EC3 installed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :( >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Finn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassenfinn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >>>>>>>>> 1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and oil cooler. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What do you think? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Finn >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Virus-free. www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <#m_9194778253219747676_m_5235908260796982300_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > --------------CA7F38C72BCC1F8CB94DAB9C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
OK. So with throttle closed there will be the highest vacuum (lowest MAP) and lowest air flow and fuel flow required. So it looks like it sort of worked.

Any way to determine if my gauges are absolute or not? I guess I would have to put them in a chamber (or plastic bag) and apply vacuum (keeping the sensor input unchanged). If reading stays the same they are absolute. Right?

Finn

On 5/25/2020 6:52 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
No; higher MAP is more air. It's an *absolute* measurement against zero pressure (the A in MAP), unlike the old automotive measurement which is *vacuum* against ambient pressure.

Full throttle at sea level is ~29"; roughly the same as with the engine off.

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 5:44 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I wish I knew what type my sensors are. I'm assuming absolute, but is there a way to tell?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/272759060859
Using the 80 psi one for fuel.

Yes, MAP port on fuel regulator connected to MAP sensors in EC3 and then to intake plenum after throttle body.

So, lower MAP = more air?
More air, more fuel, higher fuel pressure?

Seems I got the opposite from the brief log run.

But the EC3 changes fuel flow based on MAP, so don't quite understand the need for varying the fuel pressure.

Bear with me, I'm new to EFI.

Finn

On 5/25/2020 4:38 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
If the regulator has a MAP port and it's connected to the intake, then fuel pressure should vary with MAP. That's supposed to keep fuel flow proportional to airflow. But MAP is absolute; fuel pressure measurement will depend on the type of sensor (relative to atmospheric, or absolute).

I wouldn't attach any significance to bubbles in the return line; the regulator is venting (spitting) fuel through what can be a tiny slit, into the relatively free air of the return line.

Charlie

On 5/25/2020 2:57 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect for bubbles.

How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like the fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's supposed to work?

Finn

On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:


On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll hook a multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from sensor to EC3 and EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to read the EC3 manual  :)

Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could have milled recesses to retain them from expanding out under pressure they might work. But an o-ring between two flat surfaces is probably bad design. If sucking air, won't I see that in the return line as bubbles?
You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is loss of power if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've got a couple of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. They've both had forced landings (one of them multiple times) before they found that the ancient flex lines feeding the fuel pump had dried out and were porous to air but not fuel. Never leaked fuel, but would intermittently suck air and cause engine stoppage.

Charlie

Finn


On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they idle ok in the car without one. ;-)

Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even better than fuel.

Charlie

On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2).

Ran for the first time today (no prop).

Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :( 
No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if something else wrong.

Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from the EC3, so I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3.
EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0".

Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi (engine not running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix before I try running again. Gas is cheap, but not that cheap. I'll try copper washers on the pressure (output) side instead of the o-rings.

Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an angle :(
Too lazy to redo the output block.
I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink.

Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low RPM.
Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come on-line.
Didn't log the run where that worked.

Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :)

Finn

On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
Great work Finn
Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build.
I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog.

Steve




On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed and EC3 installed.

Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing.

Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine.

Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :(

Finn


On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:

1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop.

2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and oil cooler.

What do you think?

Finn



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