X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=NZ6HX68JIOELrYChvPw8Xg==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=sTwFKg_x9MkA:10 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pjdaNNIBAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=LnSZ7A-0lxrGqmJoAC4A:9 a=R0xA6SlAtPSF8GlG:21 a=LLeM9CWauVWCu5sz:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=OAEefJVzBll2_W2yQeQA:9 a=vVtLKXGURqoeb3JD:21 a=uzFPE1oLdtPn8EMz:21 a=5Bz8Rs1zXaQubXtJ:21 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-il1-f179.google.com ([209.85.166.179] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 289797 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 May 2020 18:58:23 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.166.179; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-il1-f179.google.com with SMTP id a18so1360660ilp.7 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 15:58:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=B3gt0jt01+lfbX0ront3SicEuxZdXGK1LwkQQgeAFMw=; b=MkqvYqaVJMT9OSyruv3ytkWSGZXPZFfyeoUesGqBvaDWlQOQ1mFg3aHLOBuy6NqIFe kR45g1nZ2yrQ9iaVXNWfjJ7Onklfe6/gH3f3pEy92+R/GYwyH3lWsZAm0jp8RPnyg3G/ jrJ4sbGyjsoBNHEqRGIKXGFD4/aqYCV2jnHnN7ZpizOw4Ody4sqZA4ku6/AO9b4P3Bx2 n3U0g3aL6zLt9UHp2pQXAzxlS9ZI3kcfpWKx4ecRyI+A2/w5nW1UzBExB17YMGGnT56+ BLe0g/UHqnwEjpyad+1OGg2xBDnX/RfP9kLBe+XhOt9JwiMi70exTKDNTwJQ5K8QOnYT XAvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=B3gt0jt01+lfbX0ront3SicEuxZdXGK1LwkQQgeAFMw=; b=iVUWt1HWxgWv1P0jrDh7YZ+UkBCJXRuQnePQDQagBRYyRjzyk2o7GfkRoq8Zc5XpYk SAV3Ir21R/Hcz8EDNNvPx3S/+up9rqGGuHoX3ZSH6tWI5GWrvBmyr3lvJ5bgOl+GYJvA C6436l32CmVOR9N2TQ3nzPBcK4AXSguj7omA4aVQ+aO+kCbV3zSIPX995102C0kVRMzc HRFOUc/2ROE+b3e0NhESINc0a3r6mANiU79QVA7E3lAB6V24Xy93cSFam0BjKjSSa79U Ui6fbxRRmTbyQefl+l+VSbKcsVghTToi1FwA4tPUAXu4vsB0J0cbChCQIcK4uC2k5nZN LZtg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5311AvD0MKvGTqL6zfnply4e8nMX3ZLhT+n7ilPY4vqhEEa+HsyP fM2s3PLdSisoKWgX5aLxi9s0YVHUgCE1MdVta7SFog== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxU/bZcmtwpYwEvyNDdHVUbOzf2jSacTiyZ7O1/01UwJ2w+75gmc+MJXgGw4IcKgDDk3OOglIziPk6g/tX9T5Q= X-Received: by 2002:a92:7e02:: with SMTP id z2mr25820669ilc.216.1590447487063; Mon, 25 May 2020 15:58:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 17:52:16 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not? To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000801a0c05a680e999" --000000000000801a0c05a680e999 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" No; higher MAP is more air. It's an *absolute* measurement against zero pressure (the A in MAP), unlike the old automotive measurement which is *vacuum* against ambient pressure. Full throttle at sea level is ~29"; roughly the same as with the engine off. On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 5:44 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > I wish I knew what type my sensors are. I'm assuming absolute, but is > there a way to tell? > https://www.ebay.com/itm/272759060859 > Using the 80 psi one for fuel. > > Yes, MAP port on fuel regulator connected to MAP sensors in EC3 and then > to intake plenum after throttle body. > > So, lower MAP = more air? > More air, more fuel, higher fuel pressure? > > Seems I got the opposite from the brief log run. > > But the EC3 changes fuel flow based on MAP, so don't quite understand the > need for varying the fuel pressure. > > Bear with me, I'm new to EFI. > > Finn > > On 5/25/2020 4:38 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: > > If the regulator has a MAP port and it's connected to the intake, then > fuel pressure should vary with MAP. That's supposed to keep fuel flow > proportional to airflow. But MAP is absolute; fuel pressure measurement > will depend on the type of sensor (relative to atmospheric, or absolute). > > I wouldn't attach any significance to bubbles in the return line; the > regulator is venting (spitting) fuel through what can be a tiny slit, into > the relatively free air of the return line. > > Charlie > > On 5/25/2020 2:57 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: > > Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the fuselage. Can > use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect for bubbles. > > How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like the fuel > pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's supposed to > work? > > Finn > > On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm temporarily >> using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll hook a multimeter directly to >> it to bypass any errors from sensor to EC3 and EC3 to EM3 and its display. >> And I have to read the EC3 manual :) >> >> Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could have milled >> recesses to retain them from expanding out under pressure they might work. >> But an o-ring between two flat surfaces is probably bad design. If sucking >> air, won't I see that in the return line as bubbles? >> > You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is loss of power > if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've got a couple of friends > who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. They've both had forced > landings (one of them multiple times) before they found that the ancient > flex lines feeding the fuel pump had dried out and were porous to air but > not fuel. Never leaked fuel, but would intermittently suck air and cause > engine stoppage. > > Charlie > >> >> Finn >> >> >> On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they idle ok in the >> car without one. ;-) >> >> Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even better than >> fuel. >> >> Charlie >> >> On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >> >> Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2). >> >> Ran for the first time today (no prop). >> >> Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :( >> No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if something else >> wrong. >> >> Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the instructions or >> the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from the EC3, so I didn't wire the >> tach input to the EM3. >> EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0". >> >> Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly around >> O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi (engine not running). >> Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix before I try running again. Gas is >> cheap, but not that cheap. I'll try copper washers on the pressure (output) >> side instead of the o-rings. >> >> Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an angle :( >> Too lazy to redo the output block. >> I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink. >> >> Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low RPM. >> Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come on-line. >> Didn't log the run where that worked. >> >> Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :) >> >> Finn >> >> On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Great work Finn >> Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build. >> I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog. >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> >> On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >> >> Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed and EC3 installed. >> >> Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing. >> >> Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine. >> >> Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :( >> >> Finn >> >> >> On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >> >> 1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop. >> >> 2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and oil cooler. >> >> What do you think? >> >> Finn >> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> <#m_9194778253219747676_m_5235908260796982300_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> >> > > > --000000000000801a0c05a680e999 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No;= higher MAP is more air. It's an *absolute* measurement against zero pr= essure (the A in MAP), unlike the old automotive measurement which is *vacu= um* against ambient pressure.

Full throttle at sea level is ~29"; roughly the same as with the = engine off.

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 5:44 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=
=20 =20 =20
I wish I knew what type my sensors are. I'm assuming absolute, but is there a way to tell?
h= ttps://www.ebay.com/itm/272759060859
Using the 80 psi one for fuel.

Yes, MAP port on fuel regulator connected to MAP sensors in EC3 and then to intake plenum after throttle body.

So, lower MAP =3D more air?
More air, more fuel, higher fuel pressure?

Seems I got the opposite from the brief log run.

But the EC3 changes fuel flow based on MAP, so don't quite understand the need for varying the fuel pressure.

Bear with me, I'm new to EFI.

Finn

On 5/25/2020 4:38 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
=20
If the regulator has a MAP port and it's connected to the intake, then fuel pressure should vary with MAP. That's supposed to keep fuel flow proportional to airflow. But MAP is absolute; fuel pressure measurement will depend on the type of sensor (relative to atmospheric, or absolute).

I wouldn't attach any significance to bubbles in the return line; the regulator is venting (spitting) fuel through what can be a tiny slit, into the relatively free air of the return line.

Charlie

On 5/25/2020 2:57 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
=20
Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect for bubbles.

How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like the fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's supposed to work?

Finn

On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
=20


On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor= . I think I'll hook a multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from sensor to EC3 and EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to read the EC3 manual=C2= =A0 :)

Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill an= d could have milled recesses to retain them from expanding out under pressure they might work. But an o-ring between two flat surfaces is probably bad design. If sucking air, won't I see that in the return line as bubbles?
= You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-)=C2=A0The big issue is loss of power if it starts sucking air at a critical time.=C2=A0= I've got a couple of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. They've both had forced landings (one o= f them multiple times) before they found that the ancient flex lines feeding the fuel pump had dried out and were porous to air but not fuel. Never leaked fuel, but would intermittently suck air and cause engine stoppage.
=
= Charlie

Finn


On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they idle ok in the car without one. ;-)

Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even better than fuel.

Charlie

On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2).

Ran for the first time today (no prop).

Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :(=C2=A0
No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if something else wrong.

Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from the EC3, so I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3.
EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. T= hen shows "0".

Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi (engine not running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix before I try running again. Gas is cheap, but not that cheap. I'll try copper washers on the pressure (output= ) side instead of the o-rings.

Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an angle :(
Too lazy to redo the output block.
I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink.

Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low RPM.
Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come on-line.
Didn't log the run where that worked.

Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :)

Finn

On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
Great work Finn
Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build.
I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog.

Steve




On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizo=
n.net =
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to=
 get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed an=
d EC3 installed.

Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing.

Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine.

Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :(

Finn


On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:

1) Without prop any vibration will be from=
 engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop.

2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and =
oil cooler.

What do you think?

Finn



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