X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=sv1LXgO2Gz9uSgF+vmu2Og==:117 a=sTwFKg_x9MkA:10 a=nbwDJ09AQ6IA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pjdaNNIBAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=VjkCbHWvK6RwXNi96RgA:9 a=_CVDzmcdofKAktxH:21 a=SQqmEqgKFDBUHIyP:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=OAEefJVzBll2_W2yQeQA:9 a=cd69AGQB4CgCEM6N:21 a=iMBJLuqeImfAZ39D:21 a=lp48hcl6b-v7chKu:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" Received: from sonic313-9.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.185.32] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 289712 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 May 2020 18:44:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.163.185.32; envelope-from=finn.lassen@verizon.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=verizon.net; s=a2048; t=1590446665; bh=JxvfT2zHF2V+yT4P5/WHnddwKdXG/NwGf47YbdakuIs=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=Pt2bMSOum8XrPZPCWqLeLfrlg0U7I7UssyI+PNLKe9N15lSMKUzzQHp4vTLDYbbpaziUWEpKZhJmV4LEl4Ib1bFwMHMpDBa0m5QM1goSzTf2WtjLxorBz5BEbLLBhtpyMScE/jZOq0m4fraAIzKZmBZS1sxQl7acfNteVcJxASZ9cinfPzzQqftnkHydK6BE/c3LSrIMBk3voZTW59Sl/MwxF7ZpikLtETcW9s3XtAupeRIYfuX2m+dk4GaKV1XfWFZy5rbPXqYcYAS/fH2OuAlv88mgnCPl4wZGKkCQnELuNgfEmViNpBVkn2sINeHn0u4NEcSP50Xgnr+E8SRnEw== X-YMail-OSG: zAJmKGsVM1l3wNAc.hlsjYbgN30rKb59JVhohGgSE1VChBh3NyHLXqjQEv_S5fd f0pUQkIhQ2Y3SkoJKDX38AcFnERZAJZ3L8RDUHvI7rkfaxUdLG4XxAGLv6.KF1s4EdhQCVm6GKP5 1DKcEwfvRdvFdqTCPNGfDhYZPNMyv2VcVk_bRzzIzE8k0BxqJzDCFf16NfgthF4bsAISUK7BaeqI RQtjFIKI4J0FGCZqAZv7kPoX5FgHhx9DX.rxj8pedNRCMht5VkPur.8O.5F7Iu6oCpOWjbCzqCh8 p8J_e7lMk9kVOAStsndI_zZ2IqBl.W.AXFe_gi3lETf6VjptDjTVxsJm_IHBMTmhQnGNo3K00C20 Gm.gNyl39EorWyyTucw0k71f4O4hV.cC.p9t4OZv2JJcz5xmsCCZkI8Lp5pNFAmKf2dUnl8xZ03N 1YsiotiAnuVV.uUDlYVSjc7m2_hzzJ_K3EoJBvw7DQPojjVFbtFCvdNO0vQgaJo5raki9221.xoB 9GpDBDBFs7uN6FPYbTR8_m3qr3B0JEs3VrzJBK_NNrqod_uq_RDjSnWQJTVA55P0lY7f8D.F9Xsb GAR7C6VfUERSqrgrGOGVpbsjTSuc4y5dx1dQCpfOwzQltuOTqjtpdZJ5bQO6vPs.zM.mpsN2I57w JpxrTRa5lvZpFmHyM5KS4jNmUAdlVfmXR1nnXLjGql.6eCAx2SCiTZ5LQ205vYOgHfwJFi1Q3i7J 3RCAO24tEVLMjYcUWg76.AJs3VHoRNnxtSp94w7EpgrpKz5upLE6TGXlThDM0jjBZHzb.u7_cEDC xcX10cU6q7VxKUan8V.hhDCifTkGGlVGq_hMXLjIUx_nnFjpXzm5.6TUaqBxMC.X9QMYvYIb0Sta B6tnVUZROmbZY5_8UGvJl7dpeEgnZ.I6tZJjqnS_YSp6gG42TbAQ1NTqSX_L_NyGwy2_5gpRFNVo .N_g4iQO0BBDfwiz7jTUyycZ62E7k2.HASV3ynVQu_OgjufFDOm3iapzzjQrEphDbzYN353GYQgm sKto_jZn5B0P2iYPnj4SrmT99iVtohmmgxJcBK3K1U3GUvX3miNalaaQi0K8kpz7BaJNTY97lnQ7 v2CJGIJn1cV43_seeN370JQPCF2HcTq7fnkmQ_WYJA6_vFAqx3jdfIWPtKPPZW4AO0R9s4noC3ap Hs.r1zAlw0MaJaz8br3sSOzk6o1tXUyZYspudrlnX1TcVw73t05.U3JdXJdUEEFvsNxqSEADvp4p zJS4YkWKKlTDUrDcI2Imr0_CkWrrGKDRhp8vQu.kblym6IBvBRgzi2XDR7RC1QXgxvw7VUIpeGjd G9lnsZAtVma8SRUi5dJvt3U.c29ByMKmUAEV6A1eCJKga86sY4QYiaoToHJiQ9hl.nz8fsoYVvDB Tb.saBwbCExiFz93bwCmufU1AN7V8.6dIM6LjhQ-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 25 May 2020 22:44:25 +0000 Received: by smtp413.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 2d4aaf6b6a3cbea9bcfc6e4480aa5bcd; Mon, 25 May 2020 22:44:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not? To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 18:44:16 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0D4CF517D061C77C08321D53" Content-Language: en-US X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15960 hermes_aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Content-Length: 22594 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0D4CF517D061C77C08321D53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wish I knew what type my sensors are. I'm assuming absolute, but is there a way to tell? https://www.ebay.com/itm/272759060859 Using the 80 psi one for fuel. Yes, MAP port on fuel regulator connected to MAP sensors in EC3 and then to intake plenum after throttle body. So, lower MAP = more air? More air, more fuel, higher fuel pressure? Seems I got the opposite from the brief log run. But the EC3 changes fuel flow based on MAP, so don't quite understand the need for varying the fuel pressure. Bear with me, I'm new to EFI. Finn On 5/25/2020 4:38 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: > If the regulator has a MAP port and it's connected to the intake, then > fuel pressure should vary with MAP. That's supposed to keep fuel flow > proportional to airflow. But MAP is absolute; fuel pressure > measurement will depend on the type of sensor (relative to > atmospheric, or absolute). > > I wouldn't attach any significance to bubbles in the return line; the > regulator is venting (spitting) fuel through what can be a tiny slit, > into the relatively free air of the return line. > > Charlie > > On 5/25/2020 2:57 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >> Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the >> fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect >> for bubbles. >> >> How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like the >> fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's >> supposed to work? >> >> Finn >> >> On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm >>> temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll hook a >>> multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from sensor to >>> EC3 and EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to read the EC3 >>> manual :) >>> >>> Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could have >>> milled recesses to retain them from expanding out under pressure >>> they might work. But an o-ring between two flat surfaces is >>> probably bad design. If sucking air, won't I see that in the >>> return line as bubbles? >>> >>> You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is loss of >>> power if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've got a couple >>> of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. They've >>> both had forced landings (one of them multiple times) before they >>> found that the ancient flex lines feeding the fuel pump had dried >>> out and were porous to air but not fuel. Never leaked fuel, but >>> would intermittently suck air and cause engine stoppage. >>> >>> Charlie >>> >>> >>> Finn >>> >>> >>> On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>>> Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they idle >>>> ok in the car without one. ;-) >>>> >>>> Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even >>>> better than fuel. >>>> >>>> Charlie >>>> >>>> On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net >>>> wrote: >>>>> Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2). >>>>> >>>>> Ran for the first time today (no prop). >>>>> >>>>> Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :( >>>>> No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if >>>>> something else wrong. >>>>> >>>>> Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the >>>>> instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from >>>>> the EC3, so I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3. >>>>> EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0". >>>>> >>>>> Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly >>>>> around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi >>>>> (engine not running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix >>>>> before I try running again. Gas is cheap, but not that cheap. >>>>> I'll try copper washers on the pressure (output) side instead >>>>> of the o-rings. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an >>>>> angle :( >>>>> Too lazy to redo the output block. >>>>> I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink. >>>>> >>>>> Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low RPM. >>>>> Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come on-line. >>>>> Didn't log the run where that worked. >>>>> >>>>> Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :) >>>>> >>>>> Finn >>>>> >>>>> On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Great work Finn >>>>>> Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build. >>>>>> I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog. >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassenfinn.lassen@verizon.net >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed and EC3 installed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :( >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Finn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassenfinn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >>>>>>>> 1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and oil cooler. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What do you think? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Finn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Virus-free. www.avast.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <#m_5235908260796982300_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> >>> >> > --------------0D4CF517D061C77C08321D53 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I wish I knew what type my sensors are. I'm assuming absolute, but is there a way to tell?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/272759060859
Using the 80 psi one for fuel.

Yes, MAP port on fuel regulator connected to MAP sensors in EC3 and then to intake plenum after throttle body.

So, lower MAP = more air?
More air, more fuel, higher fuel pressure?

Seems I got the opposite from the brief log run.

But the EC3 changes fuel flow based on MAP, so don't quite understand the need for varying the fuel pressure.

Bear with me, I'm new to EFI.

Finn

On 5/25/2020 4:38 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
If the regulator has a MAP port and it's connected to the intake, then fuel pressure should vary with MAP. That's supposed to keep fuel flow proportional to airflow. But MAP is absolute; fuel pressure measurement will depend on the type of sensor (relative to atmospheric, or absolute).

I wouldn't attach any significance to bubbles in the return line; the regulator is venting (spitting) fuel through what can be a tiny slit, into the relatively free air of the return line.

Charlie

On 5/25/2020 2:57 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect for bubbles.

How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like the fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's supposed to work?

Finn

On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:


On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll hook a multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from sensor to EC3 and EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to read the EC3 manual  :)

Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could have milled recesses to retain them from expanding out under pressure they might work. But an o-ring between two flat surfaces is probably bad design. If sucking air, won't I see that in the return line as bubbles?
You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is loss of power if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've got a couple of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. They've both had forced landings (one of them multiple times) before they found that the ancient flex lines feeding the fuel pump had dried out and were porous to air but not fuel. Never leaked fuel, but would intermittently suck air and cause engine stoppage.

Charlie

Finn


On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they idle ok in the car without one. ;-)

Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even better than fuel.

Charlie

On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2).

Ran for the first time today (no prop).

Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :( 
No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if something else wrong.

Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from the EC3, so I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3.
EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0".

Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi (engine not running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix before I try running again. Gas is cheap, but not that cheap. I'll try copper washers on the pressure (output) side instead of the o-rings.

Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an angle :(
Too lazy to redo the output block.
I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink.

Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low RPM.
Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come on-line.
Didn't log the run where that worked.

Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :)

Finn

On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
Great work Finn
Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build.
I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog.

Steve




On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed and EC3 installed.

Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing.

Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine.

Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :(

Finn


On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:

1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop.

2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and oil cooler.

What do you think?

Finn



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