X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=MZJh/xh7RVXA8GSK804ZBQ==:117 a=sTwFKg_x9MkA:10 a=nbwDJ09AQ6IA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=if8qDGgWGiyaFaw3mtsA:9 a=QQCrL-XUlQ_RsIb6:21 a=3ex9mgEhnMhQ-F5i:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=2zOUenFyyveXNtq_0JMA:9 a=sQvyW2tVbijD6KIk:21 a=4nqDojhL5E940Xku:21 a=N8P-9asvKIRO1Hic:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" Received: from sonic309-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.147] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 289700 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 May 2020 18:31:17 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.163.184.147; envelope-from=finn.lassen@verizon.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=verizon.net; s=a2048; t=1590445861; bh=s4t1cnquO0FTudFwHzRlImJ35Pa7Jq/7/xOhcJvFMcI=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=KhoAmMU+TuSmtcuNOW2wdqVv1LyQjM2bnSmQK7rB3CIfDyZ52uysUI6zi9mW4ZCunXrHD+WQfXjveqPvGR/VIK1Rwf8C6/DVXgO0XLoXA+TI+702uFf1Rwy7oORY7JzqmXiTMYlsvvP2r23aOuaAVco2I1OlZ21HlpJK35CEaCW3e7Sd4Gc6L5etE0tWN93hXLKHZ9f2jgiqpCvCpACAJFf22PExBhrwP0Nv+3d9aWDm8yN2eRs9O3er/rKYPrFuJSkZyjOQAEIycVf7MMHGW/Tms4GOjoQkhZmz7GkykdH+Y1Nh6St/ncv1Z6FlmPWOD1zQhLbNI+/ICGBpRgQPsg== X-YMail-OSG: fGiZKNcVM1kopEMa.iCEL3_wjxZurxcSWf4njdw5rb9WWLx8rP15k4Y3RehpFQX zMZIo72Jck3D0j8zg.E0CWczs4eBJmQze3T0pjrepLwoiDnUD5DCaO1oGY3lGE.btZeMYF.tmzT. D_pczYX3S9W22MigdfczhUMzvuD1.ukJ8CU04mpaGZ0grzsm44ccAf87LlxDSkxRZ4BWIUACWzG_ cu4g7_bQb8zd.WcocAohPs9V6Aprc0KR6iVIMHpVgNdMDmPYPGAHLkxtcPM9zUwBeDnKOEPG8B_u jL77ncbRsyY1_ekf65NI6KIcXThDKRmJlTH339RvVbwYNRJbkLMZjCYjhBHn76GGgTtouCA5FeSP ZjlOqGRnpUw6hwsXAHHpU1liczOVh0FRa9aT7ZN_uqloZIOPB1pub8ljeOVG3nWBsx_1L6bGAYNN dPR0jUhTe9X2DCSwdNa5f_vLeMa2hcx3C_HPDC9PxKhBJL.xjeHCmtknoYSKO8M1aprpB9QEgGpr FxE.I.uGMCA_xM5vqBpswbjX7.QcKuDxjfyyvlQR7uvwwAWO5FII79WYkm0LjCefdvk4ZU.q_eiw F9jlrbeHbB69o_34uBSX3oQqT5ZjJGhl3t8dRFjRaRiyMRLtP1hNA9fNG6kowvjtjfWsHVl0hkUX WoEIqCnyrBLoIzIBNQq173.QHxZuEnIrMFaB2tjNQ0bs_yb7jDKDLp2.MCG6oai9dwqJzPF2vSMF 5hk2OQDugFEGOC48u.dfEfNSvQF7rJboORej.vfykwfPAt37zmta9Nxrp.oDT_LrUMht5k3hFUmS fe7m.8RnAh22czmHcIKEaUpUW5QCjE1ukeu_raTuOJFCmkRXGz1cJuj5w_zjnWURtn8D_mRqATeN StCFuiNgZKVXu8mhnq2nhOqAcOv4_yFj9t2ve5a3t58yx6r0lXgmCOBp5onqwEwnSdcCG1rE2Zuc 0rixe4fm4vakhlKTjDmLJQ7N_ANvIgmB3znUECUJZ7aSyKCFQEggG6ppfGl8GUMTmgf5b5g9uT9r JyD_W9TBUPvU9AvMNw78bdrZvRkUOupSZW69YzzFCPTr0TW5agAdGpl1QILCzxuP5Q6gSnnn4kLb L_6XyK_UJTKCU582hzUhjudLe6J.FPh.87jqx0bGHN.gI5AWe4dRuEDASsBIjPOjuKgrV14rE9PG 2GGUMY6LgFkKDKY16LL4bYUqNm2AQaDnipZjFT1YiL_NS0QHNFf.gZRaNeBYfibry94gpWUl_RZm 1ZP3YEla8Epuj5LAzRaU3G3jL_zIVSqitiG70PRX1aFZHeesjEEzYqKW8AmyQeghhyUqFic95EkQ 6EPzToBMGc04DDrdUYcO0Wjetv25P6HRN7g06tFh0GOhrfhHho_IcS3XwbcxyNaGsaQ0i3RE5JUe r Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 25 May 2020 22:31:01 +0000 Received: by smtp423.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ca443e3a9b0bd9422a96fb4485989d9e; Mon, 25 May 2020 22:30:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not? To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 18:30:54 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1EED075685AC9C9FB0F3602B" Content-Language: en-US X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15960 hermes_aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Content-Length: 24609 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1EED075685AC9C9FB0F3602B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, heard of it. Never paid any real attention to it though. Ran the engine on the old RV-3 without wings -- even with prop. Yes, it'll wobble on the gear legs and tires, but I really don't see how the wings would make a difference. in fact, with wings you'll have more momentum, putting more stress on the fuselage forward of main wing spars to the firewall as opposed to having all of the fuselage turn freely. Is the idea that the inertia of the tail and rear of the fuselage could introduce twist in the fuselage that otherwise would somewhat be absorbed by the wings and limited to forward of the main wing spar? Finn On 5/25/2020 4:43 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: > Forgot to mention this... > > I suppose you've heard the RV lore about twisting the fuselage by > running without the wings attached. No one that's complained about it > has documented all conditions when it supposedly happened, but I > wonder if they had the tail on and no wings. In any case, I can't > imagine it being an issue when running without a prop. > > Charlie > > On 5/25/2020 3:38 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >> If the regulator has a MAP port and it's connected to the intake, >> then fuel pressure should vary with MAP. That's supposed to keep fuel >> flow proportional to airflow. But MAP is absolute; fuel pressure >> measurement will depend on the type of sensor (relative to >> atmospheric, or absolute). >> >> I wouldn't attach any significance to bubbles in the return line; the >> regulator is venting (spitting) fuel through what can be a tiny slit, >> into the relatively free air of the return line. >> >> Charlie >> >> On 5/25/2020 2:57 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >>> Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the >>> fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect >>> for bubbles. >>> >>> How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like the >>> fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's >>> supposed to work? >>> >>> Finn >>> >>> On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen >>>> finn.lassen@verizon.net >>>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm >>>> temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll hook a >>>> multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from sensor to >>>> EC3 and EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to read the EC3 >>>> manual  :) >>>> >>>> Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could have >>>> milled recesses to retain them from expanding out under >>>> pressure they might work. But an o-ring between two flat >>>> surfaces is probably bad design. If sucking air, won't I see >>>> that in the return line as bubbles? >>>> >>>> You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is loss of >>>> power if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've got a >>>> couple of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. >>>> They've both had forced landings (one of them multiple times) >>>> before they found that the ancient flex lines feeding the fuel pump >>>> had dried out and were porous to air but not fuel. Never leaked >>>> fuel, but would intermittently suck air and cause engine stoppage. >>>> >>>> Charlie >>>> >>>> >>>> Finn >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com >>>> wrote: >>>>> Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they >>>>> idle ok in the car without one. ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even >>>>> better than fuel. >>>>> >>>>> Charlie >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2). >>>>>> >>>>>> Ran for the first time today (no prop). >>>>>> >>>>>> Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :( >>>>>> No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if >>>>>> something else wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>> Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the >>>>>> instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from >>>>>> the EC3, so I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3. >>>>>> EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0". >>>>>> >>>>>> Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly >>>>>> around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi >>>>>> (engine not running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix >>>>>> before I try running again. Gas is cheap, but not that cheap. >>>>>> I'll try copper washers on the pressure (output) side instead >>>>>> of the o-rings. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an >>>>>> angle :( >>>>>> Too lazy to redo the output block. >>>>>> I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink. >>>>>> >>>>>> Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low RPM. >>>>>> Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come >>>>>> on-line. >>>>>> Didn't log the run where that worked. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :) >>>>>> >>>>>> Finn >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Great work Finn >>>>>>> Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build. >>>>>>> I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassenfinn.lassen@verizon.net >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed and EC3 installed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :( >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Finn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassenfinn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >>>>>>>>> 1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and oil cooler. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What do you think? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Finn >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Virus-free. www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <#m_5235908260796982300_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > --------------1EED075685AC9C9FB0F3602B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Yes, heard of it. Never paid any real attention to it though.
Ran the engine on the old RV-3 without wings -- even with prop. Yes, it'll wobble on the gear legs and tires, but I really don't see how the wings would make a difference. in fact, with wings you'll have more momentum, putting more stress on the fuselage forward of main wing spars to the firewall as opposed to having all of the fuselage turn freely.

Is the idea that the inertia of the tail and rear of the fuselage could introduce twist in the fuselage that otherwise would somewhat be absorbed by the wings and limited to forward of the main wing spar?

Finn

On 5/25/2020 4:43 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
Forgot to mention this...

I suppose you've heard the RV lore about twisting the fuselage by running without the wings attached. No one that's complained about it has documented all conditions when it supposedly happened, but I wonder if they had the tail on and no wings. In any case, I can't imagine it being an issue when running without a prop.

Charlie

On 5/25/2020 3:38 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
If the regulator has a MAP port and it's connected to the intake, then fuel pressure should vary with MAP. That's supposed to keep fuel flow proportional to airflow. But MAP is absolute; fuel pressure measurement will depend on the type of sensor (relative to atmospheric, or absolute).

I wouldn't attach any significance to bubbles in the return line; the regulator is venting (spitting) fuel through what can be a tiny slit, into the relatively free air of the return line.

Charlie

On 5/25/2020 2:57 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect for bubbles.

How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like the fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's supposed to work?

Finn

On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:


On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll hook a multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from sensor to EC3 and EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to read the EC3 manual  :)

Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could have milled recesses to retain them from expanding out under pressure they might work. But an o-ring between two flat surfaces is probably bad design. If sucking air, won't I see that in the return line as bubbles?
You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is loss of power if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've got a couple of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. They've both had forced landings (one of them multiple times) before they found that the ancient flex lines feeding the fuel pump had dried out and were porous to air but not fuel. Never leaked fuel, but would intermittently suck air and cause engine stoppage.

Charlie

Finn


On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they idle ok in the car without one. ;-)

Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even better than fuel.

Charlie

On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2).

Ran for the first time today (no prop).

Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :( 
No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if something else wrong.

Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from the EC3, so I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3.
EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0".

Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi (engine not running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix before I try running again. Gas is cheap, but not that cheap. I'll try copper washers on the pressure (output) side instead of the o-rings.

Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an angle :(
Too lazy to redo the output block.
I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink.

Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low RPM.
Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come on-line.
Didn't log the run where that worked.

Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :)

Finn

On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
Great work Finn
Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build.
I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog.

Steve




On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed and EC3 installed.

Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing.

Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine.

Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :(

Finn


On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:

1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop.

2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and oil cooler.

What do you think?

Finn



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