X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=sTfHN4Zh1uffypZ9lQbP9Q==:117 a=UT1FI3d4XJECLXvYuhXovg==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=sTwFKg_x9MkA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=w2I5ToiQJ8cHIXKBmh8A:9 a=izST1aO1TGdIr6gt:21 a=FKDUUL-2UYeKJafo:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=KzZRiWUBPVqArmO-CaIA:9 a=THqpvg2C2kyhSPGQ:21 a=SJPO6WyDSYgPk3Tp:21 a=OckB1Vmh-EoH5SU_:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-qk1-f169.google.com ([209.85.222.169] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 289441 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 May 2020 16:44:04 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.222.169; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-qk1-f169.google.com with SMTP id f83so18461983qke.13 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=rlqsw9YluyGcbxYHAwAznTC745LRtlo5ym32NaG3Uoc=; b=tXdgqWPbHno3Om7NHIQBKLIedXM9EkeevYw846bBv5hxgCSJ2R1WS0yfw9Gu6XQWkW l8KS9LssYoWuw2YAtRM3fYOyLJQIJKsk0Iy1VwOLmAtkVwJrEYcBQB9XLgBXiLgLwEXv kCvV2O7pZm3NUTrukreND3Ww4zzHVq+jSbz8yw7nJxz9vKMXJXNZ0p0YY9BIREZSlHyI T88z8G6tYM12uNC5sg7pklVVcaXky6cl4JU2NLiu7IxBYHteNcXTdpQzGhxTSOavZErD sRZab+LxzaodhzaFVlsmzVmwPcSJEf4ywfAAA3lcTBShu0FFxDXOPYt4sjywQnfOJWE4 EEbw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=rlqsw9YluyGcbxYHAwAznTC745LRtlo5ym32NaG3Uoc=; b=EQsanMjCKczpe9bvlr5bqW7dfE1W9It1JDTzJPhzhJvfGWjS6KdEzAdXT/vXHdR/lw 1FCxrLJ/ppB7YHa5Jq8TMuwF8HupX9ohAGNYLazzmeJMSwjb0FQvSb5jhctfhJSkkgl7 QC5hbcNzQYA6UJ3dCNa8FHd6JdzUGzDJg/H7d3pS9aIgISNtZyUwlDVNQvDc9rSBO3Qb WaqVxTL2oqwS/F9ge71LoTKFx2snwIqoWsb4eSJM3t+w2SO0t0M29Pke6H8K4WLUdmXD PjNgQk3YDsrSmn961veGyGm+YcVyHQvu+mcTaoAyYBGcRir4CdNK0ZAdJzF6GleZarGJ M/Pw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530j8Rntb0grrx5VhWEVdWtvhMryhsQ6od2KDMGCgzdG1WeDM+hL H/CWTJ3fFZadLQkFWEAb1xE8CGWy X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz4TBFC2tGbNgQhLcDW/HYWS+1eNT/Yd09VvHpffix/QfFkvH0KNHdxqDQtAhayRRwrSAmf8Q== X-Received: by 2002:a37:4d87:: with SMTP id a129mr19342694qkb.260.1590439427258; Mon, 25 May 2020 13:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.10.245] (mobile-166-172-59-114.mycingular.net. [166.172.59.114]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id m7sm15390686qti.6.2020.05.25.13.43.45 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 25 May 2020 13:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not? To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 15:43:46 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------25CE667D468DED36AF521D0A" Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200524-0, 05/24/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------25CE667D468DED36AF521D0A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forgot to mention this... I suppose you've heard the RV lore about twisting the fuselage by running without the wings attached. No one that's complained about it has documented all conditions when it supposedly happened, but I wonder if they had the tail on and no wings. In any case, I can't imagine it being an issue when running without a prop. Charlie On 5/25/2020 3:38 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: > If the regulator has a MAP port and it's connected to the intake, then > fuel pressure should vary with MAP. That's supposed to keep fuel flow > proportional to airflow. But MAP is absolute; fuel pressure > measurement will depend on the type of sensor (relative to > atmospheric, or absolute). > > I wouldn't attach any significance to bubbles in the return line; the > regulator is venting (spitting) fuel through what can be a tiny slit, > into the relatively free air of the return line. > > Charlie > > On 5/25/2020 2:57 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >> Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the >> fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect >> for bubbles. >> >> How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like the >> fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's >> supposed to work? >> >> Finn >> >> On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm >>> temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll hook a >>> multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from sensor to >>> EC3 and EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to read the EC3 >>> manual :) >>> >>> Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could have >>> milled recesses to retain them from expanding out under pressure >>> they might work. But an o-ring between two flat surfaces is >>> probably bad design. If sucking air, won't I see that in the >>> return line as bubbles? >>> >>> You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is loss of >>> power if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've got a couple >>> of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. They've >>> both had forced landings (one of them multiple times) before they >>> found that the ancient flex lines feeding the fuel pump had dried >>> out and were porous to air but not fuel. Never leaked fuel, but >>> would intermittently suck air and cause engine stoppage. >>> >>> Charlie >>> >>> >>> Finn >>> >>> >>> On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>>> Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they idle >>>> ok in the car without one. ;-) >>>> >>>> Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even >>>> better than fuel. >>>> >>>> Charlie >>>> >>>> On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net >>>> wrote: >>>>> Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2). >>>>> >>>>> Ran for the first time today (no prop). >>>>> >>>>> Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :( >>>>> No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if >>>>> something else wrong. >>>>> >>>>> Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the >>>>> instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from >>>>> the EC3, so I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3. >>>>> EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0". >>>>> >>>>> Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly >>>>> around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi >>>>> (engine not running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix >>>>> before I try running again. Gas is cheap, but not that cheap. >>>>> I'll try copper washers on the pressure (output) side instead >>>>> of the o-rings. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an >>>>> angle :( >>>>> Too lazy to redo the output block. >>>>> I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink. >>>>> >>>>> Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low RPM. >>>>> Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come on-line. >>>>> Didn't log the run where that worked. >>>>> >>>>> Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :) >>>>> >>>>> Finn >>>>> >>>>> On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Great work Finn >>>>>> Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build. >>>>>> I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog. >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassenfinn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed and EC3 installed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :( >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Finn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassenfinn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >>>>>>>> 1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and oil cooler. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What do you think? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Finn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Virus-free. www.avast.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <#m_5235908260796982300_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> >>> >> > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --------------25CE667D468DED36AF521D0A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Forgot to mention this...

I suppose you've heard the RV lore about twisting the fuselage by running without the wings attached. No one that's complained about it has documented all conditions when it supposedly happened, but I wonder if they had the tail on and no wings. In any case, I can't imagine it being an issue when running without a prop.

Charlie

On 5/25/2020 3:38 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
If the regulator has a MAP port and it's connected to the intake, then fuel pressure should vary with MAP. That's supposed to keep fuel flow proportional to airflow. But MAP is absolute; fuel pressure measurement will depend on the type of sensor (relative to atmospheric, or absolute).

I wouldn't attach any significance to bubbles in the return line; the regulator is venting (spitting) fuel through what can be a tiny slit, into the relatively free air of the return line.

Charlie

On 5/25/2020 2:57 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect for bubbles.

How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like the fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's supposed to work?

Finn

On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:


On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll hook a multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from sensor to EC3 and EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to read the EC3 manual  :)

Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could have milled recesses to retain them from expanding out under pressure they might work. But an o-ring between two flat surfaces is probably bad design. If sucking air, won't I see that in the return line as bubbles?
You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is loss of power if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've got a couple of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. They've both had forced landings (one of them multiple times) before they found that the ancient flex lines feeding the fuel pump had dried out and were porous to air but not fuel. Never leaked fuel, but would intermittently suck air and cause engine stoppage.

Charlie

Finn


On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they idle ok in the car without one. ;-)

Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even better than fuel.

Charlie

On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2).

Ran for the first time today (no prop).

Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :( 
No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if something else wrong.

Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from the EC3, so I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3.
EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0".

Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi (engine not running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix before I try running again. Gas is cheap, but not that cheap. I'll try copper washers on the pressure (output) side instead of the o-rings.

Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an angle :(
Too lazy to redo the output block.
I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink.

Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low RPM.
Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come on-line.
Didn't log the run where that worked.

Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :)

Finn

On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
Great work Finn
Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build.
I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog.

Steve




On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed and EC3 installed.

Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing.

Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine.

Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :(

Finn


On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:

1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop.

2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and oil cooler.

What do you think?

Finn



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