X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=ApVsoW9ZcMvBPLtsjcKfQA==:117 a=sTwFKg_x9MkA:10 a=nbwDJ09AQ6IA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=c6NwA0tusuIxXuzx7iwA:9 a=8M-UdPhTCRaIUFuv:21 a=-mFlf68h1u465PEX:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=0uSbTjoZW_UKom6p4JcA:9 a=0jLf87qsRQqkpehx:21 a=hCsrEqdZQKxbbsXo:21 a=aQJFYXszZe8eZbDG:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" Received: from sonic308-9.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.187.32] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 289292 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 May 2020 15:57:27 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.163.187.32; envelope-from=finn.lassen@verizon.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=verizon.net; s=a2048; t=1590436631; bh=lUhQa5FbuwnjB46wSHEGbc1I6BYyaz9taT9O+PCz5Ak=; h=From:Subject:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=elbsUuGk9J0H3TE76ixgDSkIcuLFnwh3Zv/KBa9VWTjXTL80UspF7N74e4JPRpi8c40yGS6l5TabuW4vkqQDqws1A/RGYeK9KMq6F0J6KX5rtbyY+LhlhkHnZPob/jmwa9i950dR8hcooAMGgCENMLO0fhNVHP7OiwEA0y9DYEtjqiwYujJ5CoK/eUqiPbxq9Lp5JrKj5VBfCZnXhYa3bs7jdw/TfQPzFUqjlMhqaES1TZupY1cblzEw07HMCu5MwQdwhRmJ2Ls0blZThpl1nIxHH4NeBSPdu7Y/itZhtI8+3khrB9t7DSeAGQczsPuJS+yqQTbQi27ZE+uUq8Jb6A== X-YMail-OSG: PcDaWEkVM1lrb1qKxVfna0VDn.c4aAZyVfegZvXpzS1BR7ZVBdNpu3l_JWpEBNa QBYNXyHgOCIk0UhgVB41HWpnXa0u4CJwF3OCA.UTY.XGug1zG_i0Epuw19a0_dbOnSZucJx.zRRj v2g5hVYiyf4_a.dcBbvdin9cX_fijC1j.z1S.y3h_0dPesuEXIkXLos3fsrYnF6M8IVQdDeRQO3d qmiuudDqrML3_JZpPIS1Wlr9mDWurEkyb7WsKHujGJafA4DKMJuPbEHckDBhaKdZzPWGLNwxoL2H CndlE.92b4ASrVTriPGhuY0rQSXPKq0zh6WFpA_diz9nxx6xwpdjdyD1EiIm20NPMi_GviZVMECu ORaUXp9lNLaATkxSkON_kGqT3_NkpkGkCGpOHVjM0YeBOZNprW.1qkx8kCOq96A9KdY4ryuHCrGB FK154Djre3JQYOLe26SSzH8CLbXec2h18h2S.Ydc2OhKB7TiXNQGf6TT4wNZlF5uq9ZSw1yo8Cj5 U.cVrUnSCjAxVY3s7XxvSkd0A8IovILY4xboo8NADHwnKWQlBffGQw5po6nn2hddU8CfIcl1_WwK yyfkMRnO0o4kwNhcXCP8tzFB52rUg7YNFKd_Ih4cwXM7suEdyFtLAbMkrEQsvXnNEkdwOrdgTpWk OMqd0w60jcqFz0zVD.0UQZx7FjO.xGipg_vkpN.syV0AVm7oK4WDmUMN0yE1dw1wRD3uCxP_ksGA 5ywYIefceR5KU9INcI6Yp.YNqnvgWwVkDPUlS5LS6tGUfzBMx2pEmCoVWSJNuahmXYSbTtbeBmKo qpnK_UnDnLqGC7.TQsGWs.PxkOK45xMoNvxO2646pgKglNmtxWbvgPRUSlIUojyF8gWqdw6sLJ9W uovSmPL0uTF.1pi26bdVoexuphjSd3ZzGF.DWNSSmw5q8Sn1z5ogLyD3yGxQFYxNugusaRpfQcl8 d1RHH7aJ6oGaVMhu6SV4ph7KS2EsyIW5mkPWYvtIRGoxGvpx.1HaGx1PiqTmKxu9doD0K9WpwKXT yt5z6__CwTYEswAIRRFxn1orbVF4aIMwyjF0fBd2FGZCr9uh4d0Er.UnPUHaVoKsG7dnk1ra32Da 9QnOo94OPQPMqTyL9ijSAT00lK5_qHMXJoBaE9jxHpOh3YCzHUryv7ZmuZeqoTqcduLurIKKEjHX 2HcFMhaIe.wjU2K5H8VhCQSw61wXVqU_RFIXTARsgzCY3r6b26vOV6dfJsvUbBngtMrueuM8YzAS Dewz0Tt7e1k3Jgnbew1X.JEjQ2JOlxbgxzk77n6sWkv4SRWh76wYpHZW1ICZ3di28AE8U0B8AiuU ZppF1jWChN1.R2XKwbNerzvqbCGTvVvjPi_dv94mofm_CWsLDQ2NgVNjypszisINmv_aOz_.uOng - Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 25 May 2020 19:57:11 +0000 Received: by smtp429.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f53359ae6c46edd6b1a0ecb97e108cb1; Mon, 25 May 2020 19:57:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First engine run -- prop or not? To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <89a76a60-d083-ca88-433c-60c141d18a07@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 15:57:03 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------54FB8FF44414B771B647E7A2" Content-Language: en-US X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15960 hermes_aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Content-Length: 17907 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------54FB8FF44414B771B647E7A2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect for bubbles. How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like the fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's supposed to work? Finn On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net > > wrote: > > Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm > temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll hook a > multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from sensor to EC3 > and EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to read the EC3 manual  :) > > Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could have > milled recesses to retain them from expanding out under pressure > they might work. But an o-ring between two flat surfaces is > probably bad design. If sucking air, won't I see that in the > return line as bubbles? > > You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is loss of > power if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've got a couple > of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. They've both > had forced landings (one of them multiple times) before they found > that the ancient flex lines feeding the fuel pump had dried out and > were porous to air but not fuel. Never leaked fuel, but would > intermittently suck air and cause engine stoppage. > > Charlie > > > Finn > > > On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com > wrote: >> Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they idle >> ok in the car without one. ;-) >> >> Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even >> better than fuel. >> >> Charlie >> >> On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net >> wrote: >>> Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2). >>> >>> Ran for the first time today (no prop). >>> >>> Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :( >>> No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if >>> something else wrong. >>> >>> Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the >>> instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from the >>> EC3, so I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3. >>> EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0". >>> >>> Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly >>> around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi (engine >>> not running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix before I try >>> running again. Gas is cheap, but not that cheap. I'll try copper >>> washers on the pressure (output) side instead of the o-rings. >>> >>> Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an angle :( >>> Too lazy to redo the output block. >>> I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink. >>> >>> Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low RPM. >>> Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come on-line. >>> Didn't log the run where that worked. >>> >>> Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :) >>> >>> Finn >>> >>> On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>>> Great work Finn >>>> Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build. >>>> I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog. >>>> >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassenfinn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed and EC3 installed. >>>>> >>>>> Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing. >>>>> >>>>> Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine. >>>>> >>>>> Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :( >>>>> >>>>> Finn >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassenfinn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >>>>>> 1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and oil cooler. >>>>>> >>>>>> What do you think? >>>>>> >>>>>> Finn >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> -- >>>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> <#m_5235908260796982300_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > --------------54FB8FF44414B771B647E7A2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Don't have the wings on. Ran from a 6 gallon jug next to the fuselage. Can use a transparent line for the fuel return to inspect for bubbles.

How is the fuel pressure regulator supposed to work? Looks like the fuel pressure dropped a bit as MAP dropped. Is that the way it's supposed to work?

Finn

On 5/25/2020 8:59 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:


On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:34 PM Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Good point. From the log I think it was running lean. I'm temporarily using a narrow band O2 sensor. I think I'll hook a multimeter directly to it to bypass any errors from sensor to EC3 and EC3 to EM3 and its display. And I have to read the EC3 manual  :)

Those o-rings were a bad idea. If I'd had a mill and could have milled recesses to retain them from expanding out under pressure they might work. But an o-ring between two flat surfaces is probably bad design. If sucking air, won't I see that in the return line as bubbles?
You won't if you use proper fuel line. ;-) The big issue is loss of power if it starts sucking air at a critical time. I've got a couple of friends who fly big-Continental powered Globe Swifts. They've both had forced landings (one of them multiple times) before they found that the ancient flex lines feeding the fuel pump had dried out and were porous to air but not fuel. Never leaked fuel, but would intermittently suck air and cause engine stoppage.

Charlie

Finn


On 5/24/2020 10:56 PM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
Congrats on 1st run. Doubt that the issue is no prop; they idle ok in the car without one. ;-)

Don't neglect the input side; those pumps will suck air even better than fuel.

Charlie

On 5/24/2020 9:01 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:
Probably too early to give you that. (Used 8.10 and PICkit2).

Ran for the first time today (no prop).

Over speeding not an issue. Ran like a Harley :( 
No sure if because no prop or because not tuned yet or if something else wrong.

Zero RPM readout on EM3. I must have misunderstood the instructions or the program. I thought the EM3 got RPM from the EC3, so I didn't wire the tach input to the EM3.
EM3 shows "NOP" until EC3 is turned on. Then shows "0".

Only did a couple of runs. Fuel pumps started leaking badly around O-rings when I adjusted fuel pressure up to 37psi (engine not running). Pooled up in fuselage. Need to fix before I try running again. Gas is cheap, but not that cheap. I'll try copper washers on the pressure (output) side instead of the o-rings.

Yes, I know, not pretty. Threaded the output fitting at an angle :(
Too lazy to redo the output block.
I also need to bend a new input tube without a kink.

Max oil pressure only about 50 psi, hopefully because of low RPM.
Forgot to turn on master switch so alternator didn't come on-line.
Didn't log the run where that worked.

Anyhow, can now say I've run the engine :)

Finn

On 5/22/2020 6:12 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
Great work Finn
Could I get the MPLABs version your using and any more info for the build.
I could build and program and confirm the burn but the EC3 ran like a dog.

Steve




On 22 May 2020, at 9:16 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well, after several hours of Murphy working overtime, I finally was able to get the wiring on my EC3 chip programming board right, chips programmed and EC3 installed.

Flux capacitor fluxing, injectors clicking and spark plug firing.

Time to get the wheels on and roll it out and start the engine.

Oh, wait, guess I need to finish and install the prop :(

Finn


On 5/21/2020 9:23 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote:

1) Without prop any vibration will be from engine and PSRU and can inspect engine (leaks, etc.) with no fear of prop.

2) With prop less chance of over rev and some cooling air through rads and oil cooler.

What do you think?

Finn



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