X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NYOYKFL4 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=5S/jjbM1UaigdmwgCNJ7BQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=sTwFKg_x9MkA:10 a=pjdaNNIBAAAA:8 a=0OYo5GGMAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ycR-D-Z0aJcKYWfm5c0A:9 a=6EO6_Qv7DRHGaoWO:21 a=pIjbxOiaW6-tcHdw:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=S0wkRrzPavQA:10 a=BNFBz-y2x4lWte9m1mgA:9 a=wnvhJTd0KUNJEvYV:21 a=VK4XG7WsrWnU7CSP:21 a=2inGWBT0Fat08LDq:21 a=pnywrGd5FeincJp7Izph:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com" Received: from mail-oi1-f175.google.com ([209.85.167.175] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 224085 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 09 May 2020 04:00:44 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.167.175; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-oi1-f175.google.com with SMTP id r66so10618173oie.5 for ; Sat, 09 May 2020 01:00:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=L+7RCqP+oWvHMG2b5xvz4lBgd/VlWyVu/Ko3QGrHgHE=; b=FYoMmf7ynQE+nzfEfxq17kC3l84zd0C6B2682L3P5zpqKNhQDHYWGupdhUYrnAN6zB OAZEo4NpqnGHsd/CaqLyCR2AMVjahTYPxFEgHuYy+fWe376NpM684+mHtEndwVLN590+ 4SzKBLgldrebXrk6yjDZI2asGCG7bwz+pGAe0tOwz3qBN2AhOgkaMC69wdj/uHx9DhpE 2PDKfdpCghyKx6m6GyeY4PwdmTyYgW/JampP6TOVLCfdVPdbK1Jr3MmNhYvqnz8cLWEm FqL6SxyqdsTF+i/7zFGHiHzZ8+MWmNdCuduzyLMaSEcruMCtN1UJlgBIA2wYzJyAnlRL pzIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=L+7RCqP+oWvHMG2b5xvz4lBgd/VlWyVu/Ko3QGrHgHE=; b=a+qaJgF2K4KhYw0BgohhRAe5tG/l20QL7rcuRZ5SLolUQCJ+7A9V1ZkKVr2OqXGhYE TwrIpLGRobJE5YEP8b1c9UNr90x0u/Cj70DBCFUx4iKd7whG5+1MXhv+YoCMLcvvUhfA 3zOUHGuYHt70Tm9uRVixLzgz7NhSBqAJFf09KLTBA6V2bint6C8xOCIH1fpMGD+6Rt05 BY4Av5wgAuN9V45OG2sY23fMGWEFFMSsUhd4CWrxSS2bvrSxSiLL/0e28YwFmki//SyV KOiA76H6GCfh6Qq/6DOAvqxwPXjk644LdukIASM6IYP1Q5ng2syg1gQ0sPD4397hoDT5 ZhSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYAYY34N7prmuHfrwOsj045De4pFzgwaz+H7bi9L/k5ZndJvGgh LNcbbeecZ2BZdJeUh0ja9FwpRUIoTP8sY0hcmegpcU0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIWKlvlBuBk91y4IDjo7CaLuFbAje/ooQXQiY4ryUNil2pL6eXG/PV8bpYensN8hdFeLvYXq3L3Qwd9/IMYIvs= X-Received: by 2002:aca:cc82:: with SMTP id c124mr13028985oig.35.1589011228445; Sat, 09 May 2020 01:00:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 01:00:08 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d0cdf005a5328185" --000000000000d0cdf005a5328185 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steve; I did use the standard actuator until the diaphragm burst during take-off resulting in a very impressive climb rate. I replaced it with this one on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/262896884959 It is a piston rather than a diaphragm. The diaphragm will react faster than a piston, but for our application it shouldn't matter, but the piston is far more reliable. To rebuild this is simply changing the o-ring. The mounting bracket that comes with it will fit if your compressor outlet is in the stock configuration, but as mine has been rotated to have the outlet at the 9:00 position, I had to heavily modify it to fit. Not a big deal if you can weld aluminum. For boost control I use a TurboSmart electronic boost controller like this one https://www.turbosmart.com/product/eboost2-60mm-black/ Mine is the earlier version (not the 2) and was no where near this pricey (I think it was around $400cad), but as far as I can see, just as functional. Now keep in mind that it won't reduce your boost to pressures below the spring pressure, so use the lowest spring that you can get and that will be your minimum boost pressure. Then you preset your desired boost levels in the controller and at the touch of a button you can get increased boost. It works simply by switching a small Numatics 3-way solenoid to vent some of the air pressure from the hose connecting the compressor outlet to the actuator. Simple but effective. I have a 6psi spring and have my setpoints set at 9psi and 12psi. I've not needed to use them yet, so this expense could probably be saved. Todd Bartrim C-FSTB RV9 13B Turbo Rotary Engine On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 4:15 PM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Hi guys. > Another turbo question. > Do you guys just use a standard waste gate actuator (perhaps with basic > controller allowing different boost settings) and run out of boost at x > altitude, or do you have some kind of altitude compensation? > Thanks > Steve Izett > > > > On 9 May 2020, at 6:24 am, 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > > Dave and contributors, > > Spent yesterday finally > getting specific answers that I should have had 12 months ago. The guru > that I sent the stock turbo to in the end had no idea as to an upgrade fo= r > temp in the hot section. The up grade that Dave suggested is approx. $90= 0 > USD. Real problem at the moment is the exchange rate with all the bank > charges, the great Ozzie dollar is approx. half. Then freight---- I se= e > freight on a turbo from the US at up to $800 Oz dollars!! Then internal > freight in OZ, plus labour costs --- I will have to sell 2 kidneys! > > Then considering I do not have a stock RX7 manifold to > bolt the turbo to =E2=80=93 I am manufacturing an adaption of the stock R= enesis > manifold, so whatever turbo I get it means work to make it fit and I am = =C2=BE > down that path. So having already having a =E2=80=9Cdummy spit=E2=80=9D = due to 12 months > lost, I lauch out to find a new turbo in OZ. I find that Garret and othe= rs > have a hot section wheel that will stand 1050 degrees C!! Wow that fixes > anything that the rotary puts out with no phone calls involved trying to > explain. Once again I make the usual; mistake telling the company with > all these shiny new turbos that I want it for a drone!! Thought that wou= ld > by pass the usual arguments---- silly boy, NO they do not supply for > aeronautical applications!! So I am back to =E2=80=9Cdune buggy=E2=80=9D= even though the > nearest beach is 300 miles away. Seems the turbo I require is the smalle= st > they make. Price is yet to enter the discussion. > > Will update as I get abused. I am asked continually fo= r > Make, Model, Vin Number, year of manufacturer! All I want is a turbo! > > Thanks to all, > > Neil. > > > > From: Rotary motors in aircraft > > Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 11:17 PM > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos > > > > Hi Neil, > > It all depends on how you size and operate your turbo. > > In general, the pressure relief, or pop-off valve is not needed in > aircraft. Those come more into play during the fast throttle closures th= at > occur in highly boosted race cars during shifting. They spend almost all > of their time closed. These valves are not intended to be the primary > pressure regulation and would not function well in such a capacity. They > only limit peak pressure but do not do so with a high level of accuracy o= r > control ability. They would also be highly inefficient if used in this > manner, as the turbo would be producing continuously higher back pressure > than needed. The turbo would be short lived and your fuel consumption > would suffer greatly. > > > > The wastegate issue is a much bigger question but the short answer is > that yes, you probably want/need one. The only exception might be a larg= e > turbine turbo that is sized so big that the max boost was only achieved a= t > WOT operating conditions. Even then, you would be limiting the usefulnes= s > of your turbo at altitude because if it were sized for WOT at sea level, = it > would not be very useful at altitude. If sized for WOT at altitude you > could use throttle to control boost down low, but you always run the risk > of overboost. Similarly, a fixed exhaust bypass would allow a smaller > turbo to be used in the same manner but with less efficiency and shorter > life. I have experimented with my turbo in this configuration. By > removing the flapper valve from my wastegate and creating a fixed bypass = I > was able to run at WOT and have approximately the boost I wanted, but onl= y > at a very specific altitude. Any higher and boost drops off > precepitously. Any lower and throttle is needed to control boost. There > is not much of a sweet spot as the natural variations in conditions creat= ed > a oscillating situation that is simply not tolerable. But for maximum > benefit from your turbo, longest life and efficiency there is no substitu= te > for a wastegate of some sort. > > > > Dave Leonard > > N4VY, Turbo Rotary RV-6 > > > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:47 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Can anyone help me with the following? With a turbo, can I just use = a > pressure relief valve and negate the wastegate totally?? Looking for > simplicity and weight saving. Neil. > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --000000000000d0cdf005a5328185 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Steve;
=C2=A0 I did use the standard actuator until= =C2=A0the diaphragm=C2=A0burst during take-off resulting in a very impressi= ve climb rate. I replaced it with this one on ebay
It is a piston rather th= an a diaphragm. The diaphragm will react faster than a piston, but for our = application it shouldn't matter, but the piston is far more reliable. T= o rebuild this is simply changing the o-ring. The mounting bracket that com= es with it will fit if your compressor outlet is in the stock configuration= , but as mine has been rotated to have the outlet at the 9:00 position, I h= ad to heavily modify it to fit. Not a big deal if you can weld aluminum.
For boost control I use a TurboSmart electronic boost controller li= ke this one
Mine is the earlier version (not the 2) and was no where near= this pricey (I think it was around $400cad), but as far as I can see, just= as functional. Now keep in mind that it won't reduce your boost to pre= ssures below the spring pressure, so use the lowest spring that you can get= and that will be your minimum boost pressure. Then you preset your desired= boost levels in the controller and at the touch of a button=C2=A0you can g= et increased boost. It works simply by switching a small Numatics 3-way sol= enoid to vent some of the air pressure from the hose connecting the compres= sor outlet to the actuator. Simple but effective.
=C2=A0I have a = 6psi spring and have my setpoints set at 9psi and 12psi. I've not neede= d to use them yet, so this expense could probably be saved.

Todd Bartrim
C-FSTB
RV9=
13B Turbo Rotary Engine

<= br>
On Fri,= May 8, 2020 at 4:15 PM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Hi= guys.
Another turbo question.
Do you guys just use a standard waste gate actuator (perhaps with basic con= troller allowing different boost settings) and run out of boost at x altitu= de, or do you have some kind of altitude compensation?
Thanks
Steve Izett


> On 9 May 2020, at 6:24 am, 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >
> Dave and contributors,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Spent yesterday finally getting specific answers that I should h= ave had 12 months ago.=C2=A0 The guru that I sent the stock turbo to in the= end had no idea as to an upgrade for temp in the hot section.=C2=A0 The up= grade that Dave suggested is approx. $900 USD.=C2=A0 Real problem at the m= oment is the exchange rate with all the bank charges,=C2=A0 the great Ozzie= dollar is approx. half.=C2=A0 Then freight----=C2=A0 I see freight on a tu= rbo from the US at up to $800 Oz dollars!!=C2=A0 =C2=A0Then internal freigh= t in OZ, plus labour costs=C2=A0 ---=C2=A0 I will have to sell 2 kidneys! >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Then cons= idering I do not have a stock RX7 manifold to bolt the turbo to =E2=80=93 I= am manufacturing an adaption of the stock Renesis=C2=A0 manifold, so whate= ver turbo I get it means work to make it fit and I am =C2=BE down that path= .=C2=A0 So having already having a =E2=80=9Cdummy spit=E2=80=9D due to 12 m= onths lost, I lauch out to find a new turbo in OZ.=C2=A0 I find that Garret= and others have a hot section wheel that will stand 1050 degrees C!!=C2=A0= Wow that fixes anything that the rotary puts out with no phone calls invol= ved trying to explain.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Once again I make the usual; mistake te= lling the company with all these shiny new turbos that I want it for a dron= e!!=C2=A0 Thought that would by pass the usual arguments---- silly boy, NO = they do not supply for aeronautical applications!!=C2=A0 So I am back to = =E2=80=9Cdune buggy=E2=80=9D even though the nearest beach is 300 miles awa= y.=C2=A0 Seems the turbo I require is the smallest they make.=C2=A0 Price i= s yet to enter the discussion.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Will upda= te as I get abused.=C2=A0 I am asked continually for Make, Model, Vin Numbe= r, year of manufacturer!=C2=A0 All I want is a turbo!
> Thanks to all,
> Neil.
>=C2=A0
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 11:17 PM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos
>=C2=A0
> Hi Neil,
> It all depends on how you size and operate your turbo.
> In general, the pressure relief, or pop-off valve is not needed in air= craft.=C2=A0 Those come more into play during the fast throttle closures th= at occur in highly boosted race cars during shifting.=C2=A0 They spend almo= st all of their time closed.=C2=A0 These valves are not intended to be the = primary pressure regulation and would not function well in such a capacity.= They only limit peak pressure but do not do so with a high level of accura= cy or control ability.=C2=A0 They would also be highly inefficient if used = in this manner, as the turbo would be producing continuously higher back pr= essure than needed.=C2=A0 The turbo would be short lived and your fuel cons= umption would suffer greatly.
>=C2=A0
> The wastegate issue is a much bigger question but the short answer is = that yes, you probably want/need one.=C2=A0 The only exception might be a l= arge turbine turbo that is sized so big that the max boost was only achieve= d at WOT operating conditions.=C2=A0 Even then, you would be limiting the u= sefulness of your turbo at altitude because if it were sized for WOT at sea= level, it would not be very useful at altitude.=C2=A0 If sized for WOT at = altitude you could use throttle to control boost down low, but you always r= un the risk of overboost.=C2=A0 Similarly, a fixed exhaust bypass would all= ow a smaller turbo to be used in the same manner but with less efficiency a= nd shorter life.=C2=A0 I have experimented with my turbo in this configurat= ion.=C2=A0 By removing the flapper valve from my wastegate and creating a f= ixed bypass I was able to run at WOT and have approximately the boost I wan= ted, but only at a very specific altitude.=C2=A0 Any higher and boost drops= off precepitously.=C2=A0 Any lower and throttle is needed to control boost= .=C2=A0 There is not much of a sweet spot as the natural variations in cond= itions created a oscillating situation that is simply not tolerable.=C2=A0 = But for maximum benefit from your turbo, longest life and efficiency there = is no substitute for a wastegate of some sort.
>=C2=A0
> Dave Leonard
> N4VY, Turbo Rotary RV-6
>=C2=A0
> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:47 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote= :
> Can anyone help me with the following?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 With a turbo, can = I just use a pressure relief valve and negate the wastegate totally??=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Looking for simplicity and weight saving.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Neil.


--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail= .lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
--000000000000d0cdf005a5328185--