X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NYOYKFL4 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=CfGu4IuVbUFoEaFtTlJPvg==:117 a=55z/sxGcUIPVrBMYBb4HRw==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=_Z_nqdSeG58A:10 a=sTwFKg_x9MkA:10 a=DAwyPP_o2Byb1YXLmDAA:9 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=lI18Q6OF_GjWzTS5gFQA:9 a=2tMC8GpwLzT9HOJI:21 a=2vjm28X3mFg2kW3B:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=YrIKLJH03wkCUjIu:21 a=AkV29LddMJqsbs9g:21 a=ai_nTzsmj40t_Q4U:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: " 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pg1-f169.google.com ([209.85.215.169] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 209258 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 04 May 2020 18:32:28 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.169; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-pg1-f169.google.com with SMTP id l25so89259pgc.5 for ; Mon, 04 May 2020 15:32:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language; bh=LmRZ1wKx0G2j64fV+E6reaUMZDdDtbZVDRxCuf/NAEU=; b=sKc/+Jac/cceQXpJPthdWcgTWyAbo3X2Rs533/p0ZtCO8ekhRrrTCWFZo1mKHFNiPU rrcbNpQoQJWbIajGez+H9S0LpaP6E7lvuReMltpRjnmbB1Qgnxi7INBq2zLfh7LSrKQ7 HQr6ovyWOGnzVhRq95dXF5qblbPt0qa3kRQh2oihej/gb8dDuAunYj7dOCppPGOHAoA1 vn3sWVAGUBhaPJ4FUazDf19rWq1SBclg/R/w19Mm75QG3vqBZPnnBZ7qeTbc0fXg7SmK QidQFhfL/UhiK8+LHhA5jbZNgk+clyUPJKvLy4fAX8ZPEXx8yJXXpuzlJLmFDlG1DzLh 6D6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=LmRZ1wKx0G2j64fV+E6reaUMZDdDtbZVDRxCuf/NAEU=; b=tSPVoGEyhsF3dNStNBJ/OOy1foqsjUcvEPnT59qrVyZSGpyEek9Hg0GDAwy0MXvqtk rE+h0OpMHnetGsJ8CATkuVNCotJL4CwYn7ep+frAieeuTBYD8IC8AtL91Wz3Qaz9kKKK PdjvCRCy4ZlEM2mNFoukJmn3YMKoe1hewYzerBMaNc3asRbMj9vkUqnJEMLEv7T9PmNT 9DH+Ps88MiJ9wFxgFsgVDS0oPXVV5hZhGOa1rF+pCO1URmfExGfrvHxhzSLoB0JCwNLt tca/jvIx2G+rzg/lu3wtXlFx5Vez5QzRxtPhg0UqxBVM/xJHab4iQST8gvfa0826Vtuv t9mw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZt4FRg2d2AYBL9fOKZvsjfLJhe4ZDD5hzTOpDuIgfPs+aqMQ+F lI5CQ7G6Zf7WS4BHYNUxlHdJudveeg0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJmwTpA47KqrvDQ6HzOn9+6lpLuNxLMZptBNoTnUoki96CwWUtPARHGQtrhOpzZ1LUgeN4idA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:e10f:: with SMTP id z15mr374863pgh.377.1588631530940; Mon, 04 May 2020 15:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from UserPC ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p24sm101657pff.92.2020.05.04.15.32.07 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 May 2020 15:32:08 -0700 (PDT) To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Eds engine removal at the Tracy Crook Repair Facility Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 08:32:05 +1000 Message-ID: <001401d62263$d891d170$89b57450$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01D622B7.AA3DE170" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQH0LNeTwIIh9QgWDQ/AWeqfyFOxhqhcZ75g Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01D622B7.AA3DE170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Todd, I already have the info from Dave, which is similar to = yours. I have the offer of the stock intercooler from a bloke here, so = will get it from him as it just fits with little mods to the cowl. I = have sent the stock turbo to a shop in OZ to get it checked, but they to = date have done nothing that I know of. Could be the virus as it has = apparently affected the phones as well with no reply!! Will advise = progress when it eventually happens, Neil. =20 =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 5:20 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Eds engine removal at the Tracy Crook Repair = Facility =20 Hi Neil; First I gotta apologize as I know you sent me a message early last = winter that I read and meant to get back to, but got too busy and forgot = about it. I started playing beer league hockey again after a few years = off, with games 3 nights a week, along with my sons hockey and = back-country alpine skiing every chance I get and well I'm sorry but I = just kinda forgot about you. Sorry mate. This damn virus cut our season short just before the play-offs which = is a shame as we had a strong team, but considering how others are = suffering, that's not much to complain about. And I'm still working as = much as ever since our pulp is used in medical supplies as well as = toilet paper, so fortunate on that front as well (see pic). Last week my = son & I even climbed a mountain and had a fantastic ski down, so yeah = we're fortunate up here as you are way down there. But last month I pulled the wings off my plane to put it here in the = shop at home just in-case things took a drastic turn for the worse, I = figure I could do some upgrades if I got stuck at home. So as is the = life of an experimenter, I seem to have traded sleep for the opportunity = to implement my latest half-baked ideas. Things are looking good and I'm = so far on schedule to return it to the airport at the beginning of June. = I'll make a few posts soon showing my work for peer review. Anyways, sorry for the long-winded prelude, but on to your = questions.... My turbo is simply a stock Mazda turbo that I ported the wastegate = myself. I believe it came off of a 1990 RX-7, but I'm not sure. I got it = used from RX7 Specialties in Calgary.=20 The turbo model is an Hitachi 18S-2S. I rebuilt it after I started to = loose a lot of oil through the worn bearings. The rebuild kit was only = available from G-Pop Shop. The bearings are actually exactly the same as = available in a $15 kit that fits almost all turbochargers, but it's that = damn seal that's hard to find. The wastegate was pathetically small so I = ported it out to the maximum diameter that could be covered with the = stock flapper gate, which more than doubled the area. As well, I also = smoothed and flared the inlet to this port. As a result, it easily = controls the boost levels. The stock turbo was known for boost creep (or = so I've read) I replaced the wastegate actuator with a piston type = actuator after the diaphragm failed on the stock actuator. I use a 6psi = spring, so under normal use that is the most boost that I use. I also = have a TurboSmart electronic boost controller, so at the push of a = button, I can have 9psi or 12psi (you know when you are flying up a = blind mountain valley and realize you've really screwed up and need a = little extra power to clear that ridge, never happened yet, don't ever = plan for it to happen, but I'm glad I've got it). The set-points are = user programmable. A/R ratio, no idea. Whatever it came with, but I'm certain it is not = optimum for the use that I'm using it for. The stock turbo is not really = ideal for aircraft use at all and many aftermarket turbos would work = better except installation is unfriendly. The greatest weakness of an = aftermarket turbo IMO is the oil return which would require a scavenger = pump.. no thanks. The stock turbo is a compact installation with a = no-issue gravity oil return. Now this works for me, but I'm really not using continuous boost to go = fast. I use it for short duration for take-off and climb. If you are = looking for continuous duty use for high speed cruise, then you need to = talk to Dave Leonard as he used a stock turbo as well, but first I think = his is a later model year that was regarded as better, and second, he = sent it off to a company that ported it as I did, but also changed out = the turbine and compressor wheel to something suited to his desired use. = Most of that info is in the archives, but if Dave is listening, maybe = he'll chime in. Intercooler.... I was just using a stock intercooler that I got from = RX Specialites, but while I manged to squeeze it all in there, I always = doubted it's effectiveness and then confirmed it with a the extra EM2 = air temp sensors. It was interfering with my new curved rad placement, = so I just removed it all and am in the midst of fiberglassing the cowl = which will eliminate the intercooler in/out. If it later turns out that = I need one then I'm going to go a different route and have some ideas, = but right now I'm happy to loose that weight. EGT. When I'm running around 14.5:1 air/fuel I usually see around 870 = on each rotor as measured in the turbo manifold with another a few = inches later at the turbine inlet is always about 50 degrees cooler = which has been confirmed by switching probes around. Turbine outlet is = measure about 18" downstream and is usually around 450. Two years ago I = began working on a prototype data-logger, but after a few moderately = successful tests I never did take it to the next level and work out the = bugs to make it a permanent install. I wish I had so that I could give = you better data, as I'm just going by memory at this point. One of your questions from last fall was about my muffler. I was = using an AeroExhaust and I got many comments around the airport about = how quiet my plane was. Cockpit noise was very low, but I'm far less = concerned about cockpit noise than noise on the ground. I always wonder = why pilots want to put a muffler on their head instead of the engine. = But then last summer I pulled the muffler off for another reason = (another long story) and just using a cell phone app (not very accurate = I know), I was surprised to measure barley 5db increase in the cockpit. = It seems that the turbo is doing a far better job at muffling than I'd = expected. One of old friends lives below the departure end of one of the = runways, so I asked him and he says it's still quieter than the other = planes that fly out of there. So I've bought an actual decibel meter and = this summer I'll get him to make some actual measurements from the = ground and I'll get some from the cockpit. I'll also get some from a few = other planes for comparison. Anyways, last night was a 5am finish on a big fiberglassing job with = a 9am wake up call to go to work for a break-in repair and it's after = midnight now with a 0630 start tomorrow, so I'm going to sign off now to = grab a little sleep. I hope this helps. Have a good day. Todd Bartrim =20 =20 On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 3:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: Todd, What turbo did you fit to your rotary? Do you recall = the size of the intercooler, and just what boost are you running at and = do you know what EGFT you are getting? Just heading down that path = now, so too lazy to start from scratch, Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 5:29 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Eds engine removal at the Tracy Crook Repair = Facility =20 Good to hear from you Ed; I'm starting to feel old as I clearly remember your initial report on = this long past incident! But your sharing of this and other stories has = had a positive impact on me. In the 3 times that I've rebuilt a rotary = engine since your report I always recall this story in my mind and pay = special attention as I'm installing the oil pump gear and have noticed = how easy it is to accidentally push that key out of place. Another change I've made due to your experiences is my brake lines. = After your incident someone on this list suggested using a grease gun = hose for the final loop to the wheel. So this is what I've been using = without issue since then. I'm currently doing an annual inspection that = has expanded to doing various system upgrades and I've got some shiney = new red hoses that were given to me by an Oiler at work. I'm going to = replace the old ones as the outer rubber layer has some unsightly = surface cracks from the weather and this new style won't do that. The list has been too quite as of late so I've been meaning to share = some of my updates to get the conversations going again. But I'm off to the shop right now to play with expanding foam as I = build a new set of intake ducts to match up to my new curved radiators = taken from a Kawasaki Ninja as suggested by another list member. =20 Todd RV9 13Bturbo ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01D622B7.AA3DE170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Todd,=C2=A0 I already have the info from =C2=A0Dave, = which is similar to yours.=C2=A0 I have the offer of the stock = intercooler from a bloke here, so will get it from him as it just fits = with little mods to the cowl.=C2=A0 I have sent the stock turbo to a = shop in OZ to get it checked, but they to date have done nothing that I = know of.=C2=A0 Could be the virus as it has apparently affected the = phones as well with no reply!!=C2=A0 Will advise progress when it = eventually happens,

Neil.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 = 5:20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Eds engine removal at the Tracy Crook Repair = Facility

 

Hi = Neil;

  First I gotta = apologize as I know you sent me a message early last winter = that I read and meant to get back to, but got too busy and forgot about = it. I started playing beer league hockey again after a few years off, = with games 3 nights a week, along with my sons hockey and back-country = alpine skiing every chance I get and well I'm sorry but I just kinda = forgot about you. Sorry mate.

   This damn virus cut our season short just = before the play-offs which is a shame as we had a strong team, but = considering how others are suffering, that's not much to complain about. = And I'm still working as much as ever since our pulp is used in medical = supplies as well as toilet paper, so fortunate on that front as well = (see pic). Last week my son & I even climbed a mountain and had a = fantastic ski down, so yeah we're fortunate up here as you are way down = there.

   But = last month I pulled the wings off my plane to put it here in the shop at = home just in-case things took a drastic turn for the worse, I figure I = could do some upgrades if I got stuck at home. So as is the life of an = experimenter, I seem to have traded sleep for the opportunity to = implement my latest half-baked ideas. Things are looking good and I'm so = far on schedule to return it to the airport at the beginning of June. = I'll make a few posts soon showing my work for peer = review.

  Anyways, = sorry for the long-winded prelude, but on to your = questions....

My turbo is = simply a stock Mazda turbo that I ported the wastegate myself. I believe = it came off of a 1990 RX-7, but I'm not sure. I got it used from RX7 = Specialties in Calgary. 

The turbo model is an Hitachi 18S-2S. I rebuilt it = after I started to loose a lot of oil through the worn = bearings. The rebuild kit was only available from G-Pop Shop. The = bearings are actually exactly the same as available in a $15 kit = that fits almost all turbochargers, but it's that damn seal = that's hard to find. The wastegate was pathetically small so I = ported it out to the maximum diameter that could be covered with the = stock flapper gate, which more than doubled the area. As well, I also = smoothed and flared the inlet to this port. As a result, it easily = controls the boost levels. The stock turbo was known for boost creep (or = so I've read) I replaced the wastegate actuator with a piston type = actuator after the diaphragm failed on the stock  actuator. I = use a 6psi spring, so under normal use that is the most boost that I = use. I also have a TurboSmart electronic boost controller, so at the = push of a button, I can have 9psi or 12psi (you know when you are flying = up a blind mountain valley and realize you've really screwed up and = need a little extra power to clear that ridge, never happened yet, don't = ever plan for it to happen, but I'm glad I've got it). The set-points = are user programmable.

A/R = ratio, no idea. Whatever it came with, but I'm certain it is not optimum = for the use that I'm using it for. The stock turbo is not really ideal = for aircraft use at all and many aftermarket turbos would work better = except installation is unfriendly. The greatest weakness of an = aftermarket turbo IMO is the oil return which would require a scavenger = pump.. no thanks. The stock turbo is a compact installation with a = no-issue gravity oil return.

Now this works for me, but I'm really not using = continuous boost to go fast. I use it for short duration for = take-off and climb. If you are looking for continuous duty use for = high speed cruise, then you need to talk to Dave Leonard as he used a = stock turbo as well, but first I think his is a later model year = that was regarded as better, and second, he sent it off to a company = that ported it as I did, but also changed out the turbine and compressor = wheel to something suited to his desired use. Most of that info is in = the archives, but if Dave is listening, maybe he'll chime = in.

  =  Intercooler.... I was just using a stock intercooler that I got = from RX Specialites, but while I manged to squeeze it all in there, = I always doubted it's effectiveness and then confirmed it with a the = extra EM2 air temp sensors. It was interfering with my new curved = rad placement, so I just removed it all and am in the midst of = fiberglassing the cowl which will eliminate the intercooler in/out. If = it later turns out that I need one then I'm going to go a different = route and have some ideas, but right now I'm happy to loose that = weight.

   EGT. = When I'm running around 14.5:1 air/fuel I usually see around 870 on each = rotor as measured in the turbo manifold with another a few inches later = at the turbine inlet is always about 50 degrees cooler which has been = confirmed by switching probes around. Turbine outlet is measure about = 18" downstream and is usually around 450. Two years ago I = began working on a prototype data-logger, but after a few moderately = successful tests I never did take it to the next level and work out the = bugs to make it a permanent install. I wish I had so that I could = give you better data, as I'm just going by memory at this = point.

   One of = your questions from last fall was about my muffler. I was using an = AeroExhaust and I got many comments around the airport about how quiet = my plane was. Cockpit noise was very low, but I'm far less concerned = about cockpit noise than noise on the ground. I always wonder why pilots = want to put a muffler on their head instead of the engine. But then last = summer I pulled the muffler off for another reason (another long story) = and just using a cell phone app (not very accurate I know), I was = surprised to measure barley 5db increase in the cockpit. It seems that = the turbo is doing a far better job at muffling than I'd expected. One = of old friends lives below the departure end of one of the runways, so I = asked him and he says it's still quieter than the other planes that fly = out of there. So I've bought an actual decibel meter and this summer = I'll get him to make some actual measurements from the ground = and I'll get some from the cockpit. I'll also get some from a few = other planes for comparison.

   Anyways, last night was a 5am finish on a = big fiberglassing job with a 9am wake up call to go to work for a = break-in repair and it's after midnight now with a 0630 start tomorrow, = so I'm going to sign off now to grab a little = sleep.

 I hope this = helps. Have a good day.


Todd Bartrim

 

 

Todd,

          =       What turbo did you fit to your = rotary?   Do you recall the size of the intercooler, and just = what boost are you running at and do you know what EGFT you are = getting?   Just heading down that path now, so too lazy to = start from scratch,

Neil.

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Sunday, May 3, 2020 5:29 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Eds engine removal at the Tracy Crook Repair = Facility

 <= /o:p>

Good to hear = from you Ed;

  =  I'm starting to feel old as I clearly remember your initial report = on this long past incident! But your sharing of this and other stories = has had a positive impact on me. In the 3 times that I've rebuilt a = rotary engine since your report I always recall this story in my mind = and pay special attention as I'm installing the oil pump gear and have = noticed how easy it is to accidentally push that key out of = place.

  =  Another change I've made due to your experiences is my brake = lines. After your incident someone on this list suggested using a grease = gun hose for the final loop to the wheel. So this is what I've been = using without issue since then. I'm currently doing an annual inspection = that has expanded to doing various system upgrades and I've got some = shiney new red hoses that were given to me by an Oiler at work. I'm = going to replace the old ones as the outer rubber layer has some = unsightly surface cracks from the weather and this new style won't do = that.

  =  The list has been too quite as of late so I've been meaning to = share some of my updates to get the conversations going = again.

  =  But I'm off to the shop right now to play with expanding foam as I = build a new set of intake ducts to match up to my new curved radiators = taken from a Kawasaki Ninja as suggested by another list = member.

 

Todd=

RV9 = 13Bturbo

<= /blockquote>
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01D622B7.AA3DE170--