X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=BpPjPrf5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=xNgbTRE38xHPxNDZXNwlTQ==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=e8BSqymJ620A:10 a=Jdjhy38mL1oA:10 a=ZPv60q_EFhsA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=eRLigfuSAAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=jSfs9KLOrL_PRwi57UEA:9 a=pjERVNohOe0APUTo:21 a=CnYLv-V6ehSY6s15:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=jieuRbKmt0kJN-3NEbIA:9 a=da97vNX1UEeKYGPe:21 a=y3zuhvLcPLgDCh0p:21 a=wybOHmjKGYQQK4sE:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=BfhXYjFvZD4iae-mNffo:22 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: " argoldman@aol.com" Received: from sonic311-24.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([98.137.65.205] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 13417956 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:57:41 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.137.65.205; envelope-from=argoldman@aol.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1579805844; bh=l1BAGGMqEA6HmOr0ZiuJuhwvRmLQLsyelUVDqtMXaEM=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=ORDMyFcgjy909F8OCcM//iA0n7Zy+m3e2tN2RK8kbIVhQyLs4w9yaVmOSAvh6viD/CxbS/EdMrkXR0c4TQyveaTKU5CIYWZOfWVdokZD8hZd4o09TNwt6bvtQzt4GVL10JjzfF1Whwr58Kstxfv6WRLD5IMURLc2Gh26iMtxZRwruerfUobdI3qDcfItZYchJMyEtqBLM2Nkzx5I7bQKMjx0k+lmrEciK3aWbr/l3EWP1TLznTFw3MFFcrJg7wWCqKEufbrGV0HQ7COcr1nEEPXT8oF5ZpcpJfnMpR7aWOTEq76wM2odID4YgBSsMJ8SO9xfEQ4Ejji308CpFS9RtQ== X-YMail-OSG: 966.U74VM1miNNJwrjLujScz1KAiAyEPVHa2aKWIVTQy1k1oXHx5u8DLxJxQV32 qMuVccCwBzVCHqqFY5RB5SAQjWLWeQiMM2pCV5uuqhT4qSxsdqDy1OiPmUtOrsuv6bSvSuru3zp7 jQc9nnKTTQzcQEEtshE2d0Cje.GK3do.NXKmgTWIP.7u2vy9bw1CpXp.DqfYzMlfhc6Nb0JQG77Y 6Ir3rR7KAYgVRzV9U8vy923UCV7dRinu.1u9JX3bV868ykd8KAFxkvt8PwgMAb921pk.Zghb8sDb 24HX8sM90qmeX5XqSxWo6BW9cY4G.Y8Pri8eqPQ4DNCnOTKDicpT3cMjpWskcs7RI8D38DIb.tyw u7.Pbx_w7WAyV89yPLVXPOwGLSN6P_Cu.wGMoC5J7Z1QqXMLFrTRiftSjj7wQZAxLJwElSg.cJj. 6PbUc9G0o3jPXy0iqvygTCtbYucNPhN0jHx8ho9ORmTHEb1uq10sbjNVt1vEaut3C6cDBzXQsPNv Hu804ixwkCsmr.F3Bsce4z00hEgtvs4EJYuLRTvN2VM3nxxtP3OrTcOCaVGVZXMucZF4oJRQYL8O OCd11kT6hFpHzShQYkytXONHqC.sTTDmWvOOsNdMFoASCJwJ_gexd8dCe63BPeyqpG7HP1nymoDf VCg7kLDEcnZUGGYL.573ZrAcX6CKgTRFuMTbduEKE2pv3uwfYrvReJHevRRdIlV7ZW9EXd_c_wOt hp8WIg7Bzvdw4o8RE7Op1.GIeIa8gbNnPuSsHaj0EpWz1bYkG0b.gnsepWWyUTeWWqx7CEsLFeuo r.xgQGage7vGWjg8nm96zAj0M9Zt7uQMmVLrZN9hjELAwKGI7RePUvJ1gnTvaf9wWlNzuLZcLdYu HY5K5Q74Dy7woL_QUEL5d4oQOYrW_MFt6x1OszhEhYSZFd6CIYsJ19LIeGuU45LkGNfFOYXc5Zmm .deLZrEFnDDIwBuWwtQwTydyrlDk0VXXu_N90bSxjmWLSWTNGobRtkFr_TNFVhJQahuW0chuZ46x uIt9eyZG8VtbLEyznj85b8__jkTal7Tv6fVk6Cu0WB4fp7tqqrov11nCivigCz0RxY0ywFhxtdq_ l4FZ_WxRHJqzb9b548lgyJ3BIpaLyZ3B8USrCofxv815uGq8Wk7JWFfR782TL9jWIb6q5WW8lgKZ o.NsN89gSNibtog61dLSl_8qIbsk63NqwPcqjzFrXsirc0_fpgai_718r_YSrbvsSj3xfsJ7Youh IIZMMYaKGL.m5.D6LVfgm4m1NTysANAsffiQ4dw-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 18:57:24 +0000 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 18:57:18 +0000 (UTC) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message-ID: <383960476.18589800.1579805838340@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: mufflers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18589799_1717400081.1579805838337" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.14873 aolwebmail Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:72.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/72.0 Content-Length: 24166 ------=_Part_18589799_1717400081.1579805838337 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just a thought,=20 Jet hot is a great idea as it lessens the heat exchange from the exhaust ga= sses to the outside due to IR radiation. It also may look great. However th= ere may be a problem here in that the rotary (especially non-renesis) is qu= ite hot and restricting its loss through the pipe by coating might quicken = the demise of the pipes from the inside (which you won't be able to see). I= f you are going to coat, coat both the inside and outside of the pipes. (sl= ip joints may be a problem here but they are inspect-able). Of course then = there is the problem of the muffler. In an aircraft application, these pipes are subject to higher sustained tem= peratures than our cylinder loving brethren. Rich =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2020 12:29 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: mufflers Guys, no paint is going to hold up. Look up Jet Hot. They have a very high = temp cerment coating that is really rated to 1800 deg F. I=E2=80=99ve used = it on several race bikes. No flaking or degradation. Much higher temperatur= e than paint. For mufflers try looking up the Iannetti patent. Yes the same= guy doing the tip seals. He built a very effective muffler that he leased = to the rotary engine racers. At least until most racing groups banned the r= otary.Bill On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 3:41 PM Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au wrote: Ok that makes more sense. I also painted my exhaust with supposedly 2000=E2= =98=80=EF=B8=8FF =C2=A0paint. Didn=E2=80=99t last long. On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 5:10 am, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com wrote: Finn,=C2=A0 Correct, but I possibly confused everyone as the 28% only all= ows the gas to "rub" and does not in any way totally exit completely throug= h the holes, it acts like a cheese grater together with the packing. The ex= haust gas exits unrestricted through a 2.5 inch pipe=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A bi= gger pipe may eliminate the slight power loss??=C2=A0 Originally just a str= aight through muffler, now a "closed circuit" for want of a better descript= ion.=C2=A0 THe muffler runs red hot, so Chris shrouded it and put an air co= oling blast onto it which eliminated that problem.=C2=A0 IN the photo you c= an see a horrible paint job.=C2=A0 That started out as top of the line high= heat resistant paint --- soon cooked that off, so that it looks like it do= es Neil. On 1/23/2020 6:14 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: =20 Well, any reports on the power loss with the muffler with 28% holes? Obviously the most quiet installation of all is the one that doesn't produ= ce any power at all :) =20 Finn On 1/22/2020 10:42 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: =20 What did you mean by "The 3 inlets fire directly onto the opposite side o= f the center tube." So the 3 primary tubes are welded to the center tube, w= hich blows out into the outer tube (that has the packing), then out the 2.5= " pipe. How does the packing not blow out the 2.5"? =20 I'm curious about hard welding the 3 inlets to the outer can without any??= expansion??joints. I was worried so I made all 3 expansion joints. =20 Darn, I'm thinking I put way to many holes in the perforated center tube.= =20 - Matt Boiteau=20 On 2020-01-21 4:20:29 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com wrote: Mat, ?????????????????????????????????? Here again I am= just the messenger.?? The guru is Kevin Davis from Active Exhaust Systems?= ? (AES). (woolongong Aust)?? Yes 28% is the magic number as is the size (di= a) of the holes at just over 1/8"(critical apparently).?? Packing is Innox?= ? wool which is fine S/S.?? Too much and too little, both affect the result= . Kev, claims that he weighs the muffler when packing to get the right amou= nt,?? says that although not packed precisely even from end to end, it will= even out as it works. The big can has the perforated tube running end to e= nd which is hollow (perforated tube) and the outer can is packed with Innox= between the inner perforated tube and the solid outer tube.?? The muffler = shown, began life as a straight through muffler which was mounted under the= RV.?? Chris then as usual adapted the muffler by cutting 3 x inlet holes r= ight into the hollow center tube, then welded it to the manifold plate.?? T= he 3 inlets fire directly onto the opposite side of the center tube.?? I tr= ied to see what that has done to the "wool"opposite, and it appears to have= blasted some away. Hard to tell looking through 1/8" holes, Only way to fi= nd out is to disassemble it.?? Then to get the noise out, he again simply c= ut another hole halfway between the back 2 exhaust inlets and welded a 2.5"= outlet.?? Has done many successful hours Chris says.?? Chris cut off the 3= " inlet and outlet tube and welded a plate over both ends to seal the whole= muffler.?? It fitted in the small space available and worked which is what= matters Kev. seems happy with a 2.5" exhaust tube, so is up to you if you = chase 2.75".?? Here again I have no idea, and I suspect most others have li= ttle idea as well.?? really a dyno is the only evidence.?? Watched many Utu= be videos of blokes putting different mufflers on their cars to get a lovel= y "quiet" exhaust.?? All terribly successful according to the operators, bu= t IMHO the results ranged from little difference to actually louder.?? Perc= eption and fact can be totally different.,?? AS they say if your baby cries= it is music, if it is someone elses you want to kill it! Neil. =20 On 1/22/2020 7:03 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: =20 Only 28%. Geesh, I just drilled mine and did about 200%, I guess that is = way to much. I guessed the drill area to be double the size of the pipe. Di= d make design so I can drill out one cap and switch out the inner pipe full= of holes to test different back pressure.??Neil, can you confirm 28%? ?? =20 Is the big can stuffed full of wool, so the primary tubes fire right into = it? How does it exit out that bottom pipe? =20 In RX8, they (car forum) say 2.75" is the best (but hard to find) exhaust = size. But since we are taking large harsh pulses and bring them down to a s= mall constant flow, they say you can run smaller size. I did my downpipe as= 2.75" and will do the long exhaust underneath plane in 2.5" =20 =20 =20 - Matt Boiteau=20 On 2020-01-20 8:24:41 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com wrote: Second time with 1 photo each to get past the editor!!= =20 =20 Photo of modified straight through muffler to attach directly to the RX8= =20 engine.?? The science apparently is to have approx 1/8" holes that amount= =20 to 28% of the area of the through pipe.?? This one is 3 inch but the=20 Manufacturer claims that?? 2.5" is better. Dia is 5 " and the space=20 between is packed with fine S/S "wool". THis is the first bloke that can= =20 tell me the science in mufflers as he has made them all his working life.= =20 =20 JUst passing this on as I am totally ignorant as usual.?? Still trying to= =20 mount my turbo if I live long enough.=20 =20 More photos to follw for those interested.?? Neil=20 =20 --=20 Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -- Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyro= tary/List.html --=20 RegardsAndrew MartinMartin Ag ------=_Part_18589799_1717400081.1579805838337 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just a thought,

Jet hot is a great idea as it lessens the heat exchan= ge from the exhaust gasses to the outside due to IR radiation. It also may = look great. However there may be a problem here in that the rotary (especia= lly non-renesis) is quite hot and restricting its loss through the pipe by = coating might quicken the demise of the pipes from the inside (which you wo= n't be able to see). If you are going to coat, coat both the inside and out= side of the pipes. (slip joints may be a problem here but they are inspect-= able). Of course then there is the problem of the muffler.

In an aircraft application, these pipes are subject t= o higher sustained temperatures than our cylinder loving brethren.


Rich


-----= Original Message-----
From: William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2020 12:29 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: mufflers

Guys, no paint is going to hold up. Look up Jet Hot. They have a very = high temp cerment coating that is really rated to 1800 deg F. I=E2=80=99ve = used it on several race bikes. No flaking or degradation. Much higher tempe= rature than paint. For mufflers try looking up the Iannetti patent. Yes the= same guy doing the tip seals. He built a very effective muffler that he le= ased to the rotary engine racers. At least until most racing groups banned = the rotary.
Bill

On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at = 3:41 PM Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Ok that makes more sense. I also painted my exhaust with supposedly 20= 00=E2=98=80=EF=B8=8FF  paint. Didn=E2=80=99t last long.

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 5= :10 am, Neil Unger 12348ung@= gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20 =20
=20
Finn,  Correct, but I possibly confused everyone as the 28% only allows the gas to "rub" and does not in any way totally exit completely through the holes, it acts like a cheese grater together with the packing. The exhaust gas exits unrestricted through a 2.5 inch pipe    A bigger pipe may eliminate= the slight power loss??  Originally just a straight through muffler, now a "closed circuit" for want of a better description.  THe muffler runs red hot, so Chris shrouded it and put an air cooling blast onto it which eliminated that problem.  IN the photo you can see= a horrible paint job.  That started out as top of the line high he= at resistant paint --- soon cooked that off, so that it looks like it does
=20
Neil.
=20
On 1/23/2020 6:14 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@= verizon.net wrote:
=20 =20
Well, any reports on the power loss with the muffler with 28% holes?
Obviously the most quiet installation of all is the one that doesn't produce any power at all :)

Finn
On 1/22/2020 10:42 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:
=20 =20
= What did you mean by "The 3 inlets fire directly onto the opposite side of the center tube." So the 3 primary tubes are welded to the center tube, which blows out into the outer tube (that has the packing), then out the 2.5" pipe. How does the packing not blow out the 2.5"?

I'm curious about hard welding the 3 inlets to the outer can without any??expansion??joints. I was worried so I made all 3 expansion joints.

Darn, I'm thinking I put way to many holes in the perforated center tube. =20

=20
- Matt Boiteau
=20
On 2020-01-21 4:20:29 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=20
=20
Mat,
=20
?????????????????????????????????? Here again I am just the messenger.?? The guru is Kevin Davis from Active Exhaust Systems?? (AES). (woolongong Aust)?? Yes 28% is the magic number as is the size (dia) of the holes at just over 1/8"(critical apparently).?? Packing is Innox?? wool which is fine S/S.?? Too much and too little, both affect the result. Kev, claims that he weighs the muffler when packing to get the right amount,?? says that although not packed precisely even from end to end, it will even out as it works.
=20
The big can has the perforated tube running end to end which is hollow (perforated tube) and the outer can is packed with Innox between the inner perforated tube and the solid outer tube.?? The muffler shown, began life as a straight through muffler which was mounted under the RV.?? Chris then as usual adapted the muffler by cutting 3 x inlet holes right into the hollow center tube, then welded it to the manifold plate.?? The 3 inlets fire directly onto the opposite side of the center tube.?? I tried to see what that has done to the "wool"opposite, and it appears to have blasted some away. Hard to tell looking through 1/8" holes, Only way to find out is to disassemble it.?? Then to get the noise out, he again simply cut another hole halfway between the back 2 exhaust inlets and welded a 2.5" outlet.?? Has done many successful hours Chris says.?? Chris cut off the 3" inlet and outlet tube and welded a plate over both ends to seal the whole muffler.?? It fitted in the small space available and worked which is what matters
=20
Kev. seems happy with a 2.5" exhaust tube, so is up to you if you chase 2.75".?? Here again I have no idea, and I suspect most others have little idea as well.?? really a dyno is the only evidence.?? Watched many Utube videos of blokes putting different mufflers on their cars to get a lovely "quiet" exhaust.?? All terribly successful according to the operators, but IMHO the results ranged from little difference to actually louder.?? Perception and fact can be totally different.,?? AS they say if your baby cries it is music, if it is someone elses you want to kill it!
=20
Neil.
=20

=20
On 1/22/2020 7:03 AM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:
=20 =20
= Only 28%. Geesh, I just drilled mine and did about 200%, I guess that is way to much. I guessed the drill area to be double the size of the pipe. Did make design so I can drill out one cap and switch out the inner pipe full of holes to test different back pressure.??Neil, can you confirm 28%? ??

Is the big can stuffed full of wool, so the primary tubes fire right into it? How does it exit out that bottom pipe?

In RX8, they (car forum) say 2.75" is the best (but hard to find) exhaust size. But since we are taking large harsh pulses and bring them down to a small constant flow, they say you can run smaller size. I did my downpipe as 2.75" and will do the long exhaust underneath plane in 2.5"


=20

=20
- Matt Boiteau
=20
On 2020-01-20 8:24:41 PM, Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ; wrote:
=20
Second time with 1 photo each to get past the editor!!

Photo of modified straight through muffler to attach directly to the RX8
engine.?? The science apparently is to have approx 1/8" holes that amount
to 28% of the area of the through pipe.?? This one is 3 inch but the
Manufacturer claims that?? 2.5" is better. Dia is 5 " and the space
between is packed with fine S/S "wool". THis is the first bloke that can
tell me the science in mufflers as he has made them all his working life.

JUst passing this on as I am totally ignorant as usual.?? Still trying to
mount my turbo if I live long enough.

More photos to follw for those interested.?? Neil
<= blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"border-left-style:solid;border-width:1px;= margin-top:20px;margin-left:0px;padding-left:10px;">
<= blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"border-left-style:solid;border-width:1px;= margin-top:20px;margin-left:0px;padding-left:10px;">
=20

--
Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag
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