X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=F7spiZpN c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=i5sNnWMWiFEi7PeXFQpELg==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=MeAgGD-zjQ4A:10 a=D1cS4yEsAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=vnREMb7VAAAA:8 a=WHTNI0m8AAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=Cfav1zfMLtkib4e0cBEA:9 a=NmZElfY1CzmOsrHE:21 a=6QtyaRSMwM2sGVEw:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=AihIkylY6J8A:10 a=7ADfq2wjbC0A:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=FK2XL17q4OjpKAuQk0oA:9 a=RhG0eWej_8bsEEtb:21 a=LTOWcWG9OieRhZAA:21 a=j_7KcLvk0Azh3Rml:21 a=8SiJU1QLUsbhfX3bt1O6:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=4dBBhICKzG43f-YPgcmK:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-il1-f178.google.com ([209.85.166.178] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 13206687 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 09:55:02 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.166.178; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-il1-f178.google.com with SMTP id q15so7173567ils.8 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 06:55:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=gQ23nrj1hSGZasHYoVgdLSJNWwGQowl4btYV2wezMFU=; b=sTIglHZvo4HJJXKe8RbPdkdUMS3K5pP8Uji/4Xx3kejVdigVC3vP/5lUHdlzga9IF9 9DCWkQE3mfQO2Pm7fCgim1OnwqfkfzXbQR2mqNcSB5MtD+XLqYwz6sWklieni8TH40IZ yYIdHFhUMs6l1N+/zWrUxMnlXpOL3g04qyHnZQJPPhBKXHCm0r0va6Hnn4ogWzCoZ/dm QOgW+Xlrfb75b2VFypQpq5bBVhueP4RHqtM4JjwUvz0H7puJt7lv+Tz6QimS/gstK5Pp w+ALAMB/t1r9qvbArwrvNBs/GzwpycYzynnl+9u45oapBhVupuagWAupjhhDP3cf+UPm FhdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=gQ23nrj1hSGZasHYoVgdLSJNWwGQowl4btYV2wezMFU=; b=ldPBZEjeJh2ANkHsl+gH9ellwkQyWLwZG5oiyCPnpdjGAxwGLZ1t7jEbNfy7zPH9S9 HDJUk5Z047n7XdVnbeFaDW0im9eAtqa5kXLg3IwWZhWonLPjHSDdUlCzw9NUirAUWptr nt6I+drsVlTzPhJaautRygrQFPlA0zAHqTgJgiUu46bUIX/yHMZ81xnGUcG7QcNAWSv5 5bGKqS3iGYClFRohMJRERM9iubYotvQQryqzVH+m9JvinrmS4cv1pFy5uyyJqoeY2hbs u2Ompi04uby1/gFhtSRsTI9XlsDW0U8hyB8uUcZj7hRHzVN24UmiD+bkYrVszQUpbTEl vMBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXfQPZlL/Ki7wwD8T/llsQDA3h3vCpYaYDkb3bhh3/hrBW/gGUy 16WHJi4s3bd0bLFxPWoLCi7kJTg7pgfrW8U5BQcs+w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxyiIUXmx1xJLT+V+RvmDwQs6O8cy1IywM+1wbdM+e+eF87BrYoffJavfCapR5MpJ5L4D6E40jE43MCF7N5HI4= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5c5d:: with SMTP id q90mr17712262ilb.22.1574434484342; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 06:54:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 08:53:17 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Mufflers To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002955910597f0986c" --0000000000002955910597f0986c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The HP-required issue works on both ends. All RVs (except *maybe* the -12) have significant excess power even with their recommended engines, so we probably wouldn't miss the power until it magically appeared after removing the restriction. But it would always affect power to some degree (likely not as extreme), even on the low end of the spectrum (pumping losses), meaning it would take more fuel at cruise than without the restriction. If your 5 bends were all 90 degrees, according to the earlier loss calculator, they would add the equivalent of 14 *feet* to the effective length of a 2.5" pipe. Given the fact that humans' perception of loudness is affected quite a bit by irritating odd-harmonic overtones (stuff approaching square waves sounds much more irritating, therefore 'louder' than stuff approaching a sine wave), and the fact that you're running a turbo, which tends to scrub off the really irritating harmonics of the 13B exhaust, might be the reason that the Aeroturbine makes little difference in the *perceived* loudness. 6dB, if an accurate measurement, is a fairly significant decrease in sound *energy*, since dBs are a logarithmic scale of measurement. It reduced the sound *power* by 75% (6dB is a 4X power increase). Most humans can barely detect a 1dB change in a controlled (quiet) environment. A 3 dB change (twice the power) instantly noticeable; a 10 dB change is typically perceived as twice as loud (even though it's 10 times the power). http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-amplification.htm Charlie On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 1:03 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > I've considered buying a proper sound meter to make some more accurate > measurements. And in the few moments since I started typing this response, > I checked them out on Amazon and now whatyaknow, there's going to be one > arriving at my door on saturday for a grand total of $23. "Add to cart", > it's just too easy.... > So yeah, I had no faith in the absolute readings and don't even have much > faith in the relative reading showing a 6db increase. But even to my ears I > didn't hear much difference. > I'll use this new toy to take readings from a variety of places, > including enlisting a little help from my friends that live under the > flight paths. > As far as elbows in the pipe, yes they certainly can create pressure > drops etc. and is always taken into account in any pressure flows and while > I would expect that as sound is just another form of energy, it would have > some effect, but in our short limited pipe, is it measurable? > I suppose that if by some miracle I found myself with nothing better to > do, it would make a good experiment. There's a guy on YouTube > (SmarterEveryDay) https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6107grRI4m0o2-emgoDnAA > that would probably love to do this experiment. Someone should suggest it > to him. I can imagine him fabbing up an exhaust pipe with a few dozen > removable bends then taking measurements while adding and removing them. > But as far as robbing HP, yes probably again, but it's of no concern to me > as I already use a very conservative maximum 6psi of boost and only for > short periods, to get me off the ground in a hurry. And I expect that in > mountain flying I will be pretty happy to have it as well. > > Todd Bartrim > > > On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 9:28 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> The elbows almost certainly help to 'mellow' the sound. I've submitted a >> couple of earlier posts about 'goodness' vs volume and the reasons rotaries >> sound so loud. But... >> >> https://www.spikevm.com/calculators/irrigation/fittings-valves-calculator.php >> How much power that saps is hard to predict, but it could be significant. >> >> On the subject of using a cell phone for SPL measurements, you're right >> to be suspicious. At low volumes, relative measurements might be somewhat >> valid, but I wouldn't trust it to measure absolutes. At higher volumes, all >> bets are off. Based on my experience in a previous life doing live sound >> work and 'tuning' rooms for fixed sound installations, I've never gotten >> believable numbers using any of my cell phone SPL apps. >> >> Charlie >> >> >> On 11/21/2019 4:08 PM, Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Hi Neil and other Rotorheads; >> Sorry for the delayed reply, had a busy week with my kid in a hockey >> tournaments, as well as my own beer league. I love this season..... >> I was using an AeroTurbine 2525 several feet downstream of my modified >> stock turbo until recently. It's a long story why and how, but I had this >> muffler inside a housing to keep it out of the air stream for aerodynamics >> and to keep it out of the cowl. Hard to describe and it was a half-baked >> idea, that I would not do again, but it was successful in that I had no >> visible muffler hanging below that aircraft and it was very quiet. I had >> strived to have a quiet aircraft and was quite satisfied with this aspect >> and many other pilots on the airport grounds had made very positive >> comments about how quiet it was when I would taxi past and also on take-off >> and climb out. I only ever had one cranky old guy say that it was loud, but >> it was clearly a case of it being different and not like a conventional >> aircraft noise, so to him it was obviously not good and must be loud. I >> think we can dismiss this one complaint. >> Unfortunately I've not got any proper decibel measurements from a proper >> meter, but I did install a decibel meter app on my phone and took some >> measurements from inside the cockpit during a full power run while tied >> down just before I removed the muffler, for some before and after >> comparisons. >> Why did I remove it? Well again it's back to that darn half-baked >> muffler housing idea. The radiant heat from the muffler would radiate into >> the cockpit alongside my leg and despite having the muffler ceramic coated >> as well as firewall insulation on the housing it would get a little warm on >> hot summer days. That and I decided that it was time for my aircraft to go >> on a diet and start shedding some pounds, so I decided that it was time to >> see how bad it was without a muffler as I had never run it before without a >> muffler. Before the AeroTurbine I had a home made version of a SpinTech. >> Anyways the not-so-hard data that you're looking for. >> With the muffler in place I saw a max of 83db, without it I saw a max of >> 89db. According to the app this is equivalent to an alarm clock? >> Keep in mind that this from a cell phone app that I had just downloaded >> moments before the test and had made no attempt to calibrate it so really >> can only be used for before and after comparison. >> So it was only a 6db increase in noise. It has always been possible to >> talk easily with the pax without the use of headsets during cruise flight. >> So with such a small increase in noise, I modified the exhaust pipe to come >> straight out of the rear of the cowl and went for a flight. One of my old >> cowboy buddies has a small ranch right under the departure end of one of >> the runways, so I notified him I was going for a flight and to go outside >> to take a listen and tell me how it sounds. I didn't tell him why, but he >> knows that I've always wanted to make sure I was quiet. So afterwards I >> stopped by for a beer and first thing he says is that it sounds quieter >> now. WTF? Since he's not very technical, I'm thinking again that it's just >> a different tone and he has interpreted it as being quieter. >> So I have a co-worker who lives under the downwind leg of the circuit >> and he is much more technical minded (he converted his own truck to >> electric about 10 years ago) so his opinion is probably more relevant. >> However since he's below the downwind leg, it's at a point where I have >> reduced power, so is already much quieter that when climbing over my other >> friends place. Anyways this guy has previously reported to me that he feels >> my plane is a little quieter than most, but mostly it is a different tone >> that is easy to tune out as he finds it less obnoxious than many of the GA >> planes that fly over. So I asked him a few weeks after I made the change if >> he'd seen me flying over recently and how did it sound? He said he hadn't >> noticed any difference, but wasn't paying attention to the sound anymore. >> So while that's not very scientific, it tells me that any increase in sound >> or change in tone hasn't been enough to make anyone take notice. So for all >> that reason, I think I'm going to make this a permanent weight loss. >> So clearly the stock turbo does provide some muffling. Another thing >> to note is that the thin wall 321SS pipe is about 30" long and has 5 elbows >> in it as it weaves it's way out. I'm not sure that would have much effect, >> but I imagine it's better than a straight pipe. >> I see Dave has also responded and while I believe he has a stock turbine >> housing, the turbine and compressor wheel are not stock at all, so I don't >> know how much, but I suspect this would have some effect on sound. >> As far as the longevity of the AeroTurbine, It showed no signs of >> damage at after about 25 hours of flight and probably another 15 hours of >> ground running. That was before I sent it out to have it ceramic coated and >> I then put about another 10 hours on it (ground and flight) before I >> removed it. It shows no sign of damage or flaking of the ceramic coating. >> I'll probably use it on an old Jeep that my kid and I are rebuilding for >> him when he turns 16. >> Based on my experience, I would clearly chose to pack the useful weight >> of a turbo, than that of a muffler. Although that comes with it's own >> challenges as well. >> >> Todd Bartrim >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:34 AM Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Not Tracy, but FWIW I have about 100 hrs on my 13B with an Aero Turbine >>> 2525 muffler attached. It is holding up well, is better than nothing but >>> don't expect it to create a quiet exhaust; put it this way, I extended my >>> exhaust pipe and Fish-tailed or whale-tailed if you like (with >>> perforations) as it is compressed on the horizontal plane Vs the vertical >>> to get further noise reduction. >>> Jeff >>> >>> IIRC, Tracy's been flying one on the 20B powered RV-8 for a number >>> of years. That's what motivated me to purchase one, but it hasn't seen any >>> exhaust gas yet. >>> >>> Charlie >>> >>> >>> Charlie,, >>> Any idea how many hours Tracy has on his AeroTurbine >>> 2525.............? >>> -- >>> Kelly Troyer >>> Dyke Delta_"Eventually" >>> 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> >> --0000000000002955910597f0986c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The HP-required issue works on both ends. All RVs (except *ma= ybe* the -12) have significant excess power even with their recommended=C2= =A0engines, so we probably wouldn't miss the power until it magically a= ppeared=C2=A0after removing the restriction. But it would always affect pow= er to some degree (likely not as extreme), even on the low end of the spect= rum (pumping losses), meaning it would take more fuel at cruise than withou= t the restriction. If your 5 bends were all 90=C2=A0degrees, according to t= he earlier loss calculator, they would add the equivalent of 14 *feet* to t= he effective length of a 2.5" pipe.

Given the fact that humans' perception of loudness is a= ffected quite a bit by irritating odd-harmonic overtones (stuff approaching= square waves sounds much more irritating, therefore 'louder' than = stuff approaching a sine wave), and the fact that you're running a turb= o, which tends to scrub off the really irritating harmonics of the 13B exha= ust, might be the reason that the Aeroturbine makes little=C2=A0difference = in the *perceived* loudness. 6dB, if an accurate measurement, is a fairly s= ignificant decrease in sound *energy*, since dBs are a logarithmic=C2=A0sca= le of measurement. It reduced the sound *power* by 75% (6dB is a 4X power i= ncrease). Most humans can barely detect a 1dB change in a controlled (quiet= ) environment. A 3 dB change (twice the power) instantly noticeable; a 10 d= B change is typically perceived as twice as loud (even though it's 10 t= imes the power).

http://www.s= engpielaudio.com/calculator-amplification.htm

Charlie

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 1:03 AM T= odd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">I've considered buying a=C2=A0proper=C2=A0sound meter t= o make some more accurate measurements. And in the few moments since I star= ted typing this response, I checked them out on Amazon and now whatyaknow, = there's going to be one arriving at my door on saturday for a grand tot= al of $23. "Add to cart", it's just too easy....
So yeah,= I had no faith in the absolute readings and don't even have much faith= in the relative reading showing a 6db increase. But even to my ears I didn= 't hear much difference.
=C2=A0I'll use this new toy to t= ake readings from a variety of places, including enlisting a little help fr= om my friends that live under the flight paths.
=C2=A0 As far as = elbows in the pipe, yes they certainly can create pressure drops etc. and i= s always taken into account in any pressure flows and while I would expect = that as sound is just another form of energy, it would have some effect, bu= t in our short limited pipe, is it measurable?
=C2=A0 I suppose t= hat if by some miracle I found myself with nothing better to do, it would m= ake a good experiment. There's a guy on YouTube (SmarterEveryDay)=C2=A0= https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6107grRI4m0o2-emgoDnAA
=C2=A0that would probably love to do this experiment. Someone shoul= d suggest it to him. I can imagine him fabbing up an exhaust pipe with a fe= w dozen removable bends then taking measurements while adding and removing = them.
But as far as robbing HP, yes probably again, but it's = of no concern to me as I already use a very conservative maximum 6psi of bo= ost and only for short periods, to get me off the ground in a hurry. And I = expect that in mountain flying I will be pretty happy to have it as well.= =C2=A0

Todd= Bartrim


On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 9:28 PM Charlie= England ceenglan= d7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
The elbows almost certainly help to 'mellow' the sound. I've submitted a couple of earlier po= sts about 'goodness' vs volume and the reasons rotaries sound so loud. But...
https://www.spikevm.com/calculators/= irrigation/fittings-valves-calculator.php
How much power that saps is hard to predict, but it could be significant.

On the subject of using a cell phone for SPL measurements, you're right to be suspicious. At low volumes, relative measurements might be somewhat valid, but I wouldn't trust it to measure absolutes. At higher volumes, all bets are off. Based on=C2=A0 my experience in a previous life doing live sound work and 'tuning&#= 39; rooms for fixed sound installations, I've never gotten believable numbers using any of my cell phone SPL apps.

Charlie


On 11/21/2019 4:08 PM, Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com wrote:
=20
Hi Neil and other Rotorheads;
=C2=A0 Sorry for the delayed reply, had a busy week with my ki= d in a hockey tournaments, as well as my own beer league. I love this season.....
I was using an AeroTurbine 2525 several feet downstream of my modified stock turbo until recently. It's a long story why and how, but I had this muffler inside a housing to keep it out of the air stream for aerodynamics and to keep it out of the cowl. Hard to describe and it was a half-baked idea, that I would not do again, but it was successful=C2=A0in that I had no visible muffler hanging below that aircraft and it was very quiet. I had strived to have a quiet aircraft and was quite satisfied with this aspect and many other pilots on the airport grounds had made very positive comments about how quiet it was when I would taxi past and also on take-off and climb out. I only ever had one cranky old guy say that it was loud, but it was clearly a case of it being different and not like a conventional aircraft noise, so to him it was obviously=C2=A0not good and must be loud. I think we can dismiss this one complaint.=C2=A0
Unfortunately I've not got any proper decibel measurements from a proper meter, but I did install a decibel meter app on my phone and took some measurements from inside the cockpit during a full power run while tied down just before I removed the muffler, for some before and after comparisons.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Why did I remove it? Well again it's back to = that darn half-baked muffler housing idea. The radiant heat from the muffler would radiate into the cockpit alongside my leg and despite having the muffler ceramic coated as well as firewall insulation on the housing it would get a little warm on hot summer days. That and I decided that it was time for my aircraft to go on a diet and start shedding some pounds, so I decided that it was time to see how bad it was without a muffler as I had never run it before without a muffler. Before the AeroTurbine I had a home made version of a SpinTech.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 Anyways the not-so-hard data that you're looking fo= r.=C2=A0
With the muffler in place I saw a max of 83db, without it I saw a max of 89db. According to the app this is equivalent to an alarm clock?
Keep in mind that this from a cell phone app that I had just downloaded moments before the test and had made no attempt to calibrate it so really can only be used for before and after comparison.
So it was only a 6db increase in noise. It has always been possible to talk easily with the pax without the use of headsets during cruise flight. So with such a small increase in noise, I modified the exhaust pipe to come straight out of the rear of the cowl and went for a flight. One of my old cowboy buddies has a small ranch right under the departure end of one of the runways, so I notified him I was going for a flight and to go outside to take a listen and tell me how it sounds. I didn't tell him why, but he knows that I've alw= ays wanted to make sure I was quiet. So afterwards I stopped by for a beer and first thing he says is that it sounds quieter now. WTF? Since he's not very technical, I'm thinking aga= in that it's just a different tone and he has interpreted it as being quieter.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0So I have a co-worker who lives under the downwin= d leg of the circuit and he is much more technical minded (he converted his own truck to electric about 10 years ago) so his opinion is probably more relevant. However since he's below the downwind leg, it's at a point where I have reduced power, so is already much quieter that when climbing over my other friends place. Anyways this guy has previously reported to me that he feels my plane is a little quieter than most, but mostly it is a different tone that is easy to tune out as he finds it less obnoxious than many of the GA planes that fly over. So I asked him a few weeks after I made the change if he'd seen me flying over recently and how did it sound? He said he hadn't noticed any difference, but wasn't paying attention to the sound anymore. So while that's not very scientific, it tells me that any increase in sound or change in tone hasn't been enough to make anyone take notice. So for all that reason, I think I'm going to make this a permanent weight loss.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0So clearly the stock turbo does provide some muff= ling. Another thing to note is that the thin wall 321SS pipe is about 30" long and has 5 elbows in it as it weaves it's = way out. I'm not sure that would have much effect, but I imagine it's better than a straight pipe.=C2=A0
I see Dave has also responded and while I believe he has a stock turbine housing, the turbine and compressor wheel are not stock at all, so I don't know how much, but I suspect thi= s would have some effect on sound.
=C2=A0 As far as the longevity of the AeroTurbine, It showed n= o signs of damage at after about 25 hours of flight and probably another 15 hours of ground running. That was before I sent it out to have it ceramic coated and I then put about another 10 hours on it (ground and flight) before I removed it. It shows no sign of damage or flaking of the ceramic coating. I'll probably use it on an old Jeep that my kid and I are rebuilding for him when he turns 16.
=C2=A0 Based on my experience, I would clearly chose to pack t= he useful weight of a turbo, than that of a muffler. Although that comes with it's own challenges as well.

Todd Bartrim


On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:34 AM Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Not Tracy, but FWIW I have about 100 hrs on my 13B with an Aero Turbine 2525 muffler attached.=C2=A0 It is holding up well, is better than nothing but don't expect it to create a quiet exhaust; put it this way, I extended my exhaust pipe and Fish-tailed or whale-tailed if you like (with perforations) as it is compressed on the horizontal plane Vs the vertical to get further noise reduction.
Jeff

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IIRC, Tracy's been flying one on the 20B powere= d RV-8 for a number of years. That's what motivated me to purchase one, but it hasn't seen any exhaust gas yet.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Charlie


=C2=A0 Charlie,,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Any idea how many hours Tracy has on his Aer= oTurbine 2525.............?
--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2

--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0h= ttp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

--0000000000002955910597f0986c--