X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=PKtNwriC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=UZBReMFAb/XnTJ6n9KjCdA==:117 a=2ur7OfE09M0A:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=eRLigfuSAAAA:8 a=doj253uPAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=buISIlEaFdHd34rnT9AA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=tevwna25n4lZau_btK4A:9 a=X5PVGdwo9J6MhFH6:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=BfhXYjFvZD4iae-mNffo:22 a=LxEQM0Qe_qWNT4-WEIfn:22 a=Fc6xXSS-RxGHxrvp76Qp:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au" Received: from mail-qk1-f174.google.com ([209.85.222.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.10) with ESMTPS id 11981038 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 04:49:35 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.222.174; envelope-from=andrew@martinag.com.au Received: by mail-qk1-f174.google.com with SMTP id q70so6103481qkh.6 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 01:49:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=martinag-com-au.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=xwRo5h2sQihkDyP0ZO9a7EmLuvz4Qs9PGsvFLHQeVGM=; b=bcyCLZoXrzILAbcF8QGUB/ZQgct2EaoyAggy8jdiKXNWg7ZvZsZufdKx5VAmaijQxa 8WJha39ymp7tkAZq1CUAciFYOr/RTaIR3aZouTxWpofSUNlX1jVibrNgwFRIPu1djABM OzPdT1A1B9s0s7wl+ynFt5OKrqAi2MST+lVg8MJH99N/UkoSP6CkeT3y9d121BrsJHPy KvTYuT5hOzXtYRGcyOqZjPoVp4Czi1dBa9dT/X2w2OELYrd4qdTZQapQLD6DocY3kGsc fmLDzy4db+rEyhehgbGeUgdT35sTUNXdGNF8/iU0t5jGxJ36NVaX11SK6yX2DM4qPp0P ijOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=xwRo5h2sQihkDyP0ZO9a7EmLuvz4Qs9PGsvFLHQeVGM=; b=ZSheCa+VnoRsaVXNMVxgHJb+GjOjNVjVOx9JPW0t0AqUYgPBYGbYASAW2UoYUthDB0 T8nGCSGlcCSDw8pIAQPtu9/Gu7iXLGNx+2vc72rTl8Zblf23QlXCTFdlJpcm2gHb4bhs oJlu1ZHNz35upC/bm68VTAthSU0nliZYpSg/mTpn4uvswngHPf2CY7d6MLggBopPK9Sy YkChSghxqEKSm2k9iVLqO6DVGBxTIrzY+q0ARht1s1HqMO8AnqyCqld4UepjHXUlMDp3 SuGGsNVuAgo0knNFIsUoqL+8OxZXdB7POfEV8ImZGLH0vAl1lRiraS+V0fKRLbTlmCW/ SAzg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWazv1d3s4RumHb0rWD48I7sKViSVQM+yxn6bHnhq6zdQNJSKPg+ 8PC7n/bYYBJ++Q3uAPV1iT03cP/PGShkHWh3DTnORFA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/WrY9LYVfm8Lkm8iR3TiuCI5zZTTZ00E/ZSblMLCySCqyX3xNkOLeau1Q+t4gUX4twKpvzcCgxjlZR0H7RDZp8= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:e102:: with SMTP id g2mr9647114qkm.343.1544435357562; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 01:49:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 17:48:37 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ddd367057ca7e03a" --000000000000ddd367057ca7e03a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neil. others will know lots more than me as I'm still trying to work this engine out. I don't really have enough data to quote reliable numbers, But last flight the data recorder showed egt 850-950c upto 1030c all at same rpm's 2200-2300 prop rpm (2.85:1 reduction), seems the egt's are more a factor of Afr's than rpm with the cooler temps when afr <12.5, mid range when afr > 16, high temps afr between 13-16:1 Have now lost 3 egt sensors, originally all placed 50mm from port. just too close me thinks. next lot will be further away but this will place them in the tube where gas from both rotors are mixed so not sure if I'll get individual rotor temps or if that really matters anyway. Andrew On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 3:34 PM Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Andrew, Just what EGTs do you see at what revs? Neil. > On 12/10/2018 10:03 AM, Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au wrote: > > Neil, In Aus I=E2=80=99ve found Justraceparts.com in Qld good for quality= sensors, > their Egt sensors are $26 rated to 1300c. Have not tried their instrument > display though as I just connect to my Efis & Em2. > Andrew > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 at 6:24 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Who was it on the list that was using a Maximite for instrumentation? >> Shouldn't be too difficult to add a temperature reference & order Chines= e >> probes from ebay. >> >> Charlie >> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 3:30 PM Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Bobby, >>> >>> Only reason for an addition to the fueltech is >>> neatness, but at that cost a stand alone EGT is attractive.Currently >>> investigating as freight is the killer from the USA. Need a local supp= lier, >>> >>> Neil. >>> On 12/10/2018 8:08 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: >>> >>> Neil, >>> >>> >>> >>> I have flown an Eaton MP90 4th gen super charger for a little over 500 >>> hours. No intercooler with the super charger. Turbo FWF is in the works= and >>> will have an intercooler. I needed a wider compressor map at a lower PR= for >>> takeoff than the TO4-50 . I ended up purchasing a Garret GT3076R w/ Tia= l >>> 1.06 SS housing. I would have preferred a journal bearing turbo but thi= s >>> one is ball bearing. >>> >>> >>> >>> Do you have a reason for added EGT=E2=80=99s to the fueltech vs an airc= raft >>> engine monitor / efis? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Bobby >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net >>> ] >>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 08, 2018 2:47 AM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, >>> >>> >>> >>> Bobby, >>> >>> Yes I have the wide band 02, but when I used the >>> microtech which was the reason I ditched it it was to me impossible to = tune >>> properly. Then Microtech refused to answer phone calls or were gone to= a >>> drag race somewhere--- all queries were to be done by internet. With >>> microtech as I said before the mixture knob did nothing except occupy >>> another hole in the dash. EGTs in excess of 1850 degrees were easily >>> reached. >>> >>> Long story short I left Microtech and bought the fueltech. Much easier >>> to tune and actually have backup as required. Did not add an EGT as >>> nothing seemed to change with the microtech, so simply slept better not >>> knowing what the EGT's actually were. >>> >>> Can add EGT to the fueltech but another $1000 AUD. May have to go that >>> way as intend to get to 8000 RPM if required >>> >>> Today at low 30's degrees my water was on the thermostat at 95 degrees = C >>> and oil around 90. Saw your temps and had a heart attack until I reali= sed >>> you are farenheit. >>> >>> What turbo do you run and have you an intercooler? >>> >>> Will get to check out the ag turbos shortly as there are hundreds of >>> them around here. Will get to weigh one shortly. >>> >>> Neil. >>> >>> On 12/5/2018 9:00 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: >>> >>> Neil, >>> >>> >>> >>> Do you have a wideband O2? I have to run in the low 11=E2=80=99s at fu= ll power >>> and under boost for takeoff. 7000 rpm / 30-48=E2=80=9D MP to keep egt= =E2=80=99s around >>> 1600F. Typical cruise between 4800 =E2=80=93 5200 rpm / <30 =E2=80=9C = MP with F/A 15.8:1 >>> brings EGT=E2=80=99s into the 1500=E2=80=99s. With an intercooler I wou= ld expect F/A in the >>> 12=E2=80=99s will keep egt=E2=80=99s below 1600 but that=E2=80=99s just= a guess. I have seen EGT=E2=80=99s >>> at or below 1475F on cold days at altitude. The only time I run >>> stoichiometric is in the pattern and low MP. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Information from Pro Formula Mazda * >>> >>> >>> >>> *Engine Vitals: Exhaust Gas Temperatures *Exhaust Gas Temperatures >>> (EGTs) are the second most important tuning and troubleshooting channel >>> next to Lambda. EGTs reflect on the injector balance between the front = and >>> rear rotor Reflects misfires through high readings accompanied by norma= l >>> lambda Decline in engine performance can be evidenced by the rate of >>> temperature acceleration between the rotors during a long pull =E2=80= =93 gapping >>> Emphasis needs put on the condition of the EGTs =E2=80=93 low reading s= ensors are >>> beginning to fail. In order to have an accurate assessment of the >>> performance, EGT sensors must be replaced often. Generally, one EGT sen= sor >>> is used per rotor. One sensor bung should be welded on the each the out= er >>> exhaust pipes 3=E2=80=9D from the header flange (the center pipe usuall= y does not >>> receive a sensor). The sensor depth should be enough to where the tip o= f >>> the sensor is in the centerline of the exhaust flow. *Operational >>> Range: Front Rotor: 1450F =E2=80=93 1600F, Rear Rotor: 1400F =E2=80=93 = 1550F* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Engine Vitals: Lambda * >>> >>> Lambda is the measure of the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream. Th= e >>> value expressed is a percentage of the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio >>> 14.7:1. >>> >>> Air/fuel ratio can be calculated by multiplying the lambda value >>> monitored by data system by 14.7 >>> >>> (ex: .90 Lambda translates as (.9 x 14.7 =3D )13.23 Air/fuel ratio >>> >>> *Operating Range =3D .87 - .91, aim for .90* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Bobby >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net >>> ] >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2018 1:30 PM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, >>> >>> >>> >>> Ok, interesting stuff, but how do you keep the exhaust temp below 1600 >>> degrees without losing a lot of power? I no longer have an EGT as it j= ust >>> worried me with 1800 degrees and the cost of burnt off egt probes. Fro= m >>> memory 1600 degrees goes out the window at about 6000 rpm or less? >>> >>> Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/4/2018 2:30 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote: >>> >>> Hi Andrew, I know next to nothing about turbo technology so have stayed >>> clear of them; IIRC this is the first time I=E2=80=99ve heard of using = a turbo from >>> the agricultural industry and advice to stay clear of the automotive ty= pe >>> ... seems to make sense =E2=80=93 tractors use turbos that last for dec= ades. >>> >>> Jeff (13B, RD1-C, 144 hrs) >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* >>> *Sent:* December-03-18 5:14 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, >>> >>> >>> >>> Neil, Type Turbo selection Into search of flyrotary archives, >>> you=E2=80=99ll get about 30 posts from 2002 to 13 that are worth readin= g, other >>> searches will give more. >>> >>> >>> >>> Basically you want something the size of a T04 60-1, keep the A/R >1, >>> something like 1.15 or 1.30 >>> >>> T04=E2=80=99s are plentiful from all the older diesels like 2wd tractor= s from >>> last century. you probably got a few parked up around you that will sti= ll >>> be servicable. If you can find one without a intercooler on it, chances= are >>> that it might have the right compressor. Otherwise they are easy to cha= nge. >>> >>> Steer clear of automotive turbo=E2=80=99s, they will overspeed at altit= ude & >>> disintegrate, need waste gates & blow off valves. Stuff thats not requi= red >>> on an aeroplane. >>> >>> >>> >>> When installing. Put a normally open solonoid valve in the oil supply >>> line. Allows you to close the oil supply if the turbo blows its seal. >>> >>> >>> >>> Always bugged me why turbo shops charge so much for such a simple part. >>> >>> >>> >>> Andrew >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> >>> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/L= ist.html >>> >>> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> > -- > Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag > > --000000000000ddd367057ca7e03a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Neil. others will know lots= more than me as I'm still trying to work this engine out.
I = don't really have enough data to quote reliable numbers, But last fligh= t the data recorder showed egt 850-950c upto 1030c all at same rpm's 22= 00-2300 prop rpm (2.85:1 reduction), seems the egt's are more a factor = of Afr's than rpm with the cooler temps when afr <12.5, mid range wh= en afr > 16, high temps afr between 13-16:1
Have now lost 3 eg= t sensors, originally all placed 50mm from port. just too close me thinks. = next lot will be further away but this will place them in the tube where ga= s from both rotors are mixed so not sure if I'll get individual rotor t= emps or if that really matters anyway.
Andrew


On Mon, Dec 10,= 2018 at 3:34 PM Neil Unger 12348ung@= gmail.com <flyrotary@= lancaironline.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Andrew,=C2=A0 Just what EGTs do you see at what revs?=C2=A0 Neil.

On 12/10/2018 10:0= 3 AM, Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au = wrote:
=20
Neil, In Aus I=E2=80=99ve found Justraceparts.com= in Qld good for quality sensors, their Egt sensors are $26 rated to 1300c. Have not tried their instrument display though as I just connect to my Efis & Em2.
Andrew

On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 at 6:24 am, Charlie England ceeng= land7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Who wa= s it on the list that was using a Maximite for instrumentation?=C2=A0 Shouldn't be too difficult to ad= d a temperature reference & order Chinese probes from ebay.=C2=A0

Charli= e

3D"" Vi= rus-free. w= ww.avast.com

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 3:30 PM Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Bobby,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Only reason fo= r an addition to the fueltech is neatness, but at that cost a stand alone EGT is attractive.Currently investigating as freight is the killer from the USA.=C2=A0 Need a local supplier,

Neil.

On 12/10/2018 8:08 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.ne= t wrote:

Nei= l,

=C2= =A0

I have flown an Eaton MP90 4th gen super charger for a little over 500 hours. No intercooler with the super charger. Turbo FWF is in the works and will have an intercooler. I needed a wider compressor map at a lower PR for takeoff than the TO4-50 . I ended up purchasing a Garret GT3076R w/ Tial=C2=A0 1.06 SS housing. I would have preferred a journal bearing turbo but this one is ball bearing.

=C2= =A0

Do you have a reason for added EGT=E2=80=99s to the fueltech vs an aircraft engine monitor / efis?

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

Bob= by

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto= :flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 2:47 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil,

=C2=A0

Bobby,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yes I have the= wide band 02, but when I used the microtech which was the reason I ditched it it was to me impossible to tune properly.=C2=A0 Then Microtech refused to answ= er phone calls or were gone to a drag race somewhere--- all queries were to be done by internet.=C2=A0 With microtech as I said before the mixture knob did nothing except occupy another hole in the dash.=C2=A0 EGTs in excess of 1850 degrees were easily reached.

Long story short I left Microtech and bought the fueltech.=C2=A0 Much easier to tune and actuall= y have backup as required.=C2=A0 Did not add an EGT a= s nothing seemed to change with the microtech, so simply slept better not knowing what the EGT's actually were.

Can add EGT to the fueltech but another $1000 AUD.=C2=A0 May have to go that way as intend to get to 8000 RPM if required

Today at low 30's degrees my water was on the thermostat at 95 degrees C and oil around 90.=C2=A0 Saw your temps and had a heart attack until I realised you are farenheit.

What turbo do you run and have you an intercooler?

Will get to check out the ag turbos shortly as there are hundreds of them around here.=C2=A0 Will get to weigh one shortly.

=C2=A0 Neil.

On 12/5/2018 9:00 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote:

N= eil,

= =C2=A0

D= o you have a wideband O2?=C2=A0 I have to run in the low 11=E2=80=99s at full power and under bo= ost for takeoff. 7000 rpm / 30-48=E2=80=9D MP to ke= ep egt=E2=80=99s around 1600F. Typical cruise betw= een 4800 =E2=80=93 5200 rpm =C2=A0/ <30 =E2=80= =9C MP with F/A 15.8:1 brings EGT=E2=80=99s into the 1500=E2=80= =99s. With an intercooler I would expect F/A in the 12=E2=80= =99s will keep egt=E2=80=99s below 1600 but that=E2= =80=99s just a guess. I have seen EGT=E2=80=99s at or below 14= 75F on cold days at altitude. The only time I run stoichiometric is in the pattern and low MP.

= =C2=A0

= =C2=A0

Engine Vitals: Exhaust Gas Temperatures Exhaust Gas Temperatures (EGTs) are the second most important tuning and troubleshooting channel next to Lambda. EGTs reflect on the injector balance between the front and rear rotor Reflects misfires through high readings accompanied by normal lambda Decline in engine performance can be evidenced by the rate of temperature acceleration between the rotors during a long pull =E2=80=93 gapping Emphasis nee= ds put on the condition of the EGTs =E2=80=93 low re= ading sensors are beginning to fail. In order to have an accurate assessment of the performance, EGT sensors must be replaced often. Generally, one EGT sensor is used per rotor. One sensor bung should be welded on the each the outer exhaust pipes 3=E2=80=9D from the header flange (the center pipe usually does not receive a sensor). The sensor depth should be enough to where the tip of the sensor is in the centerline of the exhaust flow. Operationa= l Range: Front Rotor: 1450F =E2=80=93 1600F, Rear Rotor: 1400F =E2=80=93 1550F

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Engine Vitals: Lambda

Lambda is the measure of the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream. The value expressed is a percentage of the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio 14.7:1.

Air/fuel ratio can be calculated by multiplying the lambda value monitored by data system by 14.7

(ex: .90 Lambda translates as (.9 x 14.7 =3D )13.23 Air/fuel ratio

Operating Range =3D .87 - .91, aim for .90

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Bobby

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

= =C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailt= o:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2018 1:30 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil,

=C2=A0

Ok, interesting stuff, but how do you keep the exhaust temp below 1600 degrees without losing a lot of power?=C2=A0 I no longer have an EGT as it just worried me with 1800 degrees and the cost of burnt off egt probes.=C2=A0 From memory 1600 degrees goes out the window at about 6000 rpm or less?=C2=A0

Neil.

=C2=A0

On 12/4/2018 2:30 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:

Hi Andrew, I know next to nothing about turbo technology so have stayed clear of them; IIRC this is the first time I=E2=80=99ve hear= d of using a turbo from the agricultural industry and advice to stay clear of the automotive type ... seems to make sense =E2= =80=93 tractors use turbos that last for decades.

Jeff (13B, RD1-C, 144 hrs)

=C2=A0

From:
Sent: December-03-18 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil,

=C2=A0

Neil, Type =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Turbo selection =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Into search of flyr= otary archives, you=E2=80=99ll get about 30 posts= from 2002 to 13 that are worth reading, other searches will give more.

=C2=A0

Basically you want something the size of a T04 60-1, keep the A/R >1, something like 1.15 or 1.30

T04=E2=80=99s are plenti= ful from all the older diesels like 2wd tractors from last century. you probably got a few parked up around you that will still be servicable. If you can find one without a intercooler on it, chances are that it might have the right compressor. Otherwise they are easy to change.

Steer clear of automotive turbo=E2=80=99s, they will overspe= ed at altitude & disintegrate, need waste gates & blow off valves. Stuff thats not required on an aeroplane.

=C2=A0

When installing. Put a normally open solonoid valve in the oil supply line. Allows you to close the oil supply if the turbo blows its seal.

=C2=A0

Always bugged me why turbo shops charge so much for such a simple part.

=C2=A0

Andrew

=C2=A0

=C2=A0



--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0=C2=A0 h=
ttp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

3D"" Vi= rus-free. w= ww.avast.com
--
Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag
--000000000000ddd367057ca7e03a--