X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=PKtNwriC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=NZ6HX68JIOELrYChvPw8Xg==:117 a=55z/sxGcUIPVrBMYBb4HRw==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=_Z_nqdSeG58A:10 a=2ur7OfE09M0A:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=eRLigfuSAAAA:8 a=doj253uPAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=iodMMRSnXsAP9--wNNcA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=tevwna25n4lZau_btK4A:9 a=8Tp7qMyfX3AjTtw2:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=BfhXYjFvZD4iae-mNffo:22 a=LxEQM0Qe_qWNT4-WEIfn:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=Fc6xXSS-RxGHxrvp76Qp:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-it1-f179.google.com ([209.85.166.179] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.10) with ESMTPS id 11980853 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 02:34:27 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.166.179; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-it1-f179.google.com with SMTP id h193so16503595ita.5 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2018 23:34:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=22EeXZdaGfncsHY3RpO+TYkAV1quIs3iIMfEwj+ysnw=; b=tHGtdan6TSAhYLBnUw9DmuOfCQwpS1rAl0zI/BqvuOgfSR67yzsYp1jDI7+VJafn4n 5zdKXTT/Ea8hw4h8idJ1BFGxNR8k3Ev5/SMBjwv60R/WRTCQ4wYKaRfO3AefFIxG9Pzx G4MRxxjpw30ns1q4JwD8x4dUp1TNK97MqxZgG6Jcqa4FzUnVfpBSVSebwQwl3jElNDb2 mwH8DqKTn8E4WXO8sG/SYWfH7pojnekcdB2ReyVdLg0Pk99Ch7X/+p1Hh2DhFa04vqku blXswyHLKqTnpbJn8fN66tPmppXoMoGDJ9KxK60zr0ZcKr0Ew5KEDuSjAT5oPgvvXxZT VSyg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=22EeXZdaGfncsHY3RpO+TYkAV1quIs3iIMfEwj+ysnw=; b=qxa3haT7jpULJ/iO8DYcjxT1phspBnG6EC+e4Ei3S7kLF5nzWp5Rwr4woim4EO9TIT tY/A5id1Wqt33lEGgZAQTDS7u2aYaTVQDXYZ0lcY6ig8NOov7IWAMZqQRmwGxSt/HQh6 +z/cNfSmTt94dc/QQJBD8wBWG5xRxpVrvUFDV2Hpzz3OPNYcDWhvnI9uYHtsyk/7XN7Z rE7No47DJHm4lgRNoro9JHGW2mVwaUPo3kPZ0BmlBDP8mZ6WrJJGS8sUxgrVrXlEgrPo 4quTfs7/LSsIQmnixcRUhfg/vW63q6fr6OSDD1lIy2GAwTptjNRmcaFoKq+pCTte5eEu /e0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYnDWolJo/LjnskqpfuhV9i+MSZhvD37l3TcTmEJepEzmsI3nMm USg21X3pXHklZf7knXUt0kXLry+w X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/UDYzyyOmbOAFvlM5RTmH5qwgbcswyAV2o/AHx0re79yPtdwNlkFnMLnPIIeCXf1lcExpdlsQ== X-Received: by 2002:a02:45ca:: with SMTP id o71mr10904115jad.127.1544427251784; Sun, 09 Dec 2018 23:34:11 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from [192.168.0.103] ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x17sm4053151ioa.6.2018.12.09.23.34.09 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Dec 2018 23:34:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 18:34:05 +1100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------AF68EBA36394683C457F3461" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AF68EBA36394683C457F3461 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andrew,  Just what EGTs do you see at what revs?  Neil. On 12/10/2018 10:03 AM, Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au wrote: > Neil, In Aus I’ve found Justraceparts.com in Qld good for quality > sensors, their Egt sensors are $26 rated to 1300c. Have not tried > their instrument display though as I just connect to my Efis & Em2. > Andrew > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 at 6:24 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com > > wrote: > > Who was it on the list that was using a Maximite for > instrumentation?  Shouldn't be too difficult to add a temperature > reference & order Chinese probes from ebay. > > Charlie > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 3:30 PM Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com > > wrote: > > Bobby, > >                     Only reason for an addition to the > fueltech is neatness, but at that cost a stand alone EGT is > attractive.Currently investigating as freight is the killer > from the USA.  Need a local supplier, > > Neil. > > On 12/10/2018 8:08 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net > wrote: >> >> Neil, >> >> I have flown an Eaton MP90 4^th gen super charger for a >> little over 500 hours. No intercooler with the super charger. >> Turbo FWF is in the works and will have an intercooler. I >> needed a wider compressor map at a lower PR for takeoff than >> the TO4-50 . I ended up purchasing a Garret GT3076R w/ Tial  >> 1.06 SS housing. I would have preferred a journal bearing >> turbo but this one is ball bearing. >> >> Do you have a reason for added EGT’s to the fueltech vs an >> aircraft engine monitor / efis? >> >> Bobby >> >> *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft >> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >> *Sent:* Saturday, December 08, 2018 2:47 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, >> >> Bobby, >> >>                    Yes I have the wide band 02, but when I >> used the microtech which was the reason I ditched it it was >> to me impossible to tune properly.  Then Microtech refused to >> answer phone calls or were gone to a drag race somewhere--- >> all queries were to be done by internet.  With microtech as I >> said before the mixture knob did nothing except occupy >> another hole in the dash.  EGTs in excess of 1850 degrees >> were easily reached. >> >> Long story short I left Microtech and bought the fueltech.  >> Much easier to tune and actually have backup as required.  >> Did not add an EGT as nothing seemed to change with the >> microtech, so simply slept better not knowing what the EGT's >> actually were. >> >> Can add EGT to the fueltech but another $1000 AUD.  May have >> to go that way as intend to get to 8000 RPM if required >> >> Today at low 30's degrees my water was on the thermostat at >> 95 degrees C and oil around 90. Saw your temps and had a >> heart attack until I realised you are farenheit. >> >> What turbo do you run and have you an intercooler? >> >> Will get to check out the ag turbos shortly as there are >> hundreds of them around here.  Will get to weigh one shortly. >> >>   Neil. >> >> On 12/5/2018 9:00 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net >> wrote: >> >> Neil, >> >> Do you have a wideband O2?  I have to run in the low 11’s >> at full power and under boost for takeoff. 7000 rpm / >> 30-48” MP to keep egt’s around 1600F. Typical cruise >> between 4800 – 5200 rpm  / <30 “ MP with F/A 15.8:1 >> brings EGT’s into the 1500’s. With an intercooler I would >> expect F/A in the 12’s will keep egt’s below 1600 but >> that’s just a guess. I have seen EGT’s at or below 1475F >> on cold days at altitude. The only time I run >> stoichiometric is in the pattern and low MP. >> >> *Information from Pro Formula Mazda * >> >> *Engine Vitals: Exhaust Gas Temperatures *Exhaust Gas >> Temperatures (EGTs) are the second most important tuning >> and troubleshooting channel next to Lambda. EGTs reflect >> on the injector balance between the front and rear rotor >> Reflects misfires through high readings accompanied by >> normal lambda Decline in engine performance can be >> evidenced by the rate of temperature acceleration between >> the rotors during a long pull – gapping Emphasis needs >> put on the condition of the EGTs – low reading sensors >> are beginning to fail. In order to have an accurate >> assessment of the performance, EGT sensors must be >> replaced often. Generally, one EGT sensor is used per >> rotor. One sensor bung should be welded on the each the >> outer exhaust pipes 3” from the header flange (the center >> pipe usually does not receive a sensor). The sensor depth >> should be enough to where the tip of the sensor is in the >> centerline of the exhaust flow. *Operational Range: Front >> Rotor: 1450F – 1600F, Rear Rotor: 1400F – 1550F* >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> *Engine Vitals: Lambda * >> >> Lambda is the measure of the amount of oxygen in the >> exhaust stream. The value expressed is a percentage of >> the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio 14.7:1. >> >> Air/fuel ratio can be calculated by multiplying the >> lambda value monitored by data system by 14.7 >> >> (ex: .90 Lambda translates as (.9 x 14.7 = )13.23 >> Air/fuel ratio >> >> *Operating Range = .87 - .91, aim for .90* >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> Bobby >> >> ** >> >> *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft >> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2018 1:30 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, >> >> Ok, interesting stuff, but how do you keep the exhaust >> temp below 1600 degrees without losing a lot of power?  I >> no longer have an EGT as it just worried me with 1800 >> degrees and the cost of burnt off egt probes.  From >> memory 1600 degrees goes out the window at about 6000 rpm >> or less? >> >> Neil. >> >> On 12/4/2018 2:30 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com >> wrote: >> >> Hi Andrew, I know next to nothing about turbo >> technology so have stayed clear of them; IIRC this is >> the first time I’ve heard of using a turbo from the >> agricultural industry and advice to stay clear of the >> automotive type ... seems to make sense – tractors >> use turbos that last for decades. >> >> Jeff (13B, RD1-C, 144 hrs) >> >> *From:* >> *Sent:* December-03-18 5:14 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, >> >> Neil, Type    Turbo selection     Into search of >> flyrotary archives, you’ll get about 30 posts from >> 2002 to 13 that are worth reading, other searches >> will give more. >> >> Basically you want something the size of a T04 60-1, >> keep the A/R >1, something like 1.15 or 1.30 >> >> T04’s are plentiful from all the older diesels like >> 2wd tractors from last century. you probably got a >> few parked up around you that will still be >> servicable. If you can find one without a intercooler >> on it, chances are that it might have the right >> compressor. Otherwise they are easy to change. >> >> Steer clear of automotive turbo’s, they will >> overspeed at altitude & disintegrate, need waste >> gates & blow off valves. Stuff thats not required on >> an aeroplane. >> >> When installing. Put a normally open solonoid valve >> in the oil supply line. Allows you to close the oil >> supply if the turbo blows its seal. >> >> Always bugged me why turbo shops charge so much for >> such a simple part. >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Homepage:http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > -- > Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag --------------AF68EBA36394683C457F3461 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Andrew,  Just what EGTs do you see at what revs?  Neil.

On 12/10/2018 10:03 AM, Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au wrote:
Neil, In Aus I’ve found Justraceparts.com in Qld good for quality sensors, their Egt sensors are $26 rated to 1300c. Have not tried their instrument display though as I just connect to my Efis & Em2.
Andrew

On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 at 6:24 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Who was it on the list that was using a Maximite for instrumentation?  Shouldn't be too difficult to add a temperature reference & order Chinese probes from ebay. 

Charlie

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 3:30 PM Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Bobby,

                    Only reason for an addition to the fueltech is neatness, but at that cost a stand alone EGT is attractive.Currently investigating as freight is the killer from the USA.  Need a local supplier,

Neil.

On 12/10/2018 8:08 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote:

Neil,

 

I have flown an Eaton MP90 4th gen super charger for a little over 500 hours. No intercooler with the super charger. Turbo FWF is in the works and will have an intercooler. I needed a wider compressor map at a lower PR for takeoff than the TO4-50 . I ended up purchasing a Garret GT3076R w/ Tial  1.06 SS housing. I would have preferred a journal bearing turbo but this one is ball bearing.

 

Do you have a reason for added EGT’s to the fueltech vs an aircraft engine monitor / efis?

 

 

Bobby

 

 

 

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 2:47 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil,

 

Bobby,

                   Yes I have the wide band 02, but when I used the microtech which was the reason I ditched it it was to me impossible to tune properly.  Then Microtech refused to answer phone calls or were gone to a drag race somewhere--- all queries were to be done by internet.  With microtech as I said before the mixture knob did nothing except occupy another hole in the dash.  EGTs in excess of 1850 degrees were easily reached.

Long story short I left Microtech and bought the fueltech.  Much easier to tune and actually have backup as required.  Did not add an EGT as nothing seemed to change with the microtech, so simply slept better not knowing what the EGT's actually were.

Can add EGT to the fueltech but another $1000 AUD.  May have to go that way as intend to get to 8000 RPM if required

Today at low 30's degrees my water was on the thermostat at 95 degrees C and oil around 90.  Saw your temps and had a heart attack until I realised you are farenheit.

What turbo do you run and have you an intercooler?

Will get to check out the ag turbos shortly as there are hundreds of them around here.  Will get to weigh one shortly.

  Neil.

On 12/5/2018 9:00 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote:

Neil,

 

Do you have a wideband O2?  I have to run in the low 11’s at full power and under boost for takeoff. 7000 rpm / 30-48” MP to keep egt’s around 1600F. Typical cruise between 4800 – 5200 rpm  / <30 “ MP with F/A 15.8:1 brings EGT’s into the 1500’s. With an intercooler I would expect F/A in the 12’s will keep egt’s below 1600 but that’s just a guess. I have seen EGT’s at or below 1475F on cold days at altitude. The only time I run stoichiometric is in the pattern and low MP.

 

Information from Pro Formula Mazda

 

Engine Vitals: Exhaust Gas Temperatures Exhaust Gas Temperatures (EGTs) are the second most important tuning and troubleshooting channel next to Lambda. EGTs reflect on the injector balance between the front and rear rotor Reflects misfires through high readings accompanied by normal lambda Decline in engine performance can be evidenced by the rate of temperature acceleration between the rotors during a long pull – gapping Emphasis needs put on the condition of the EGTs – low reading sensors are beginning to fail. In order to have an accurate assessment of the performance, EGT sensors must be replaced often. Generally, one EGT sensor is used per rotor. One sensor bung should be welded on the each the outer exhaust pipes 3” from the header flange (the center pipe usually does not receive a sensor). The sensor depth should be enough to where the tip of the sensor is in the centerline of the exhaust flow. Operational Range: Front Rotor: 1450F – 1600F, Rear Rotor: 1400F – 1550F

 

 

Engine Vitals: Lambda

Lambda is the measure of the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream. The value expressed is a percentage of the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio 14.7:1.

Air/fuel ratio can be calculated by multiplying the lambda value monitored by data system by 14.7

(ex: .90 Lambda translates as (.9 x 14.7 = )13.23 Air/fuel ratio

Operating Range = .87 - .91, aim for .90

 

 

 

Bobby

 

 

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2018 1:30 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil,

 

Ok, interesting stuff, but how do you keep the exhaust temp below 1600 degrees without losing a lot of power?  I no longer have an EGT as it just worried me with 1800 degrees and the cost of burnt off egt probes.  From memory 1600 degrees goes out the window at about 6000 rpm or less? 

Neil.

 

On 12/4/2018 2:30 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:

Hi Andrew, I know next to nothing about turbo technology so have stayed clear of them; IIRC this is the first time I’ve heard of using a turbo from the agricultural industry and advice to stay clear of the automotive type ... seems to make sense – tractors use turbos that last for decades.

Jeff (13B, RD1-C, 144 hrs)

 

From:
Sent: December-03-18 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil,

 

Neil, Type    Turbo selection     Into search of flyrotary archives, you’ll get about 30 posts from 2002 to 13 that are worth reading, other searches will give more.

 

Basically you want something the size of a T04 60-1, keep the A/R >1, something like 1.15 or 1.30

T04’s are plentiful from all the older diesels like 2wd tractors from last century. you probably got a few parked up around you that will still be servicable. If you can find one without a intercooler on it, chances are that it might have the right compressor. Otherwise they are easy to change.

Steer clear of automotive turbo’s, they will overspeed at altitude & disintegrate, need waste gates & blow off valves. Stuff thats not required on an aeroplane.

 

When installing. Put a normally open solonoid valve in the oil supply line. Allows you to close the oil supply if the turbo blows its seal.

 

Always bugged me why turbo shops charge so much for such a simple part.

 

Andrew

 

 



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Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

Virus-free. www.avast.com
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Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag
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