Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.169.71] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 3068675 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 05:40:06 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 02:40:06 -0800 Received: from 199.183.198.121 by bay3-dav41.bay3.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 10:40:06 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [199.183.198.121] X-Originating-Email: [kerrjb@msn.com] X-Sender: kerrjb@msn.com From: "WALTER KERR" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ideal Cooling System Plumbing (wasRe:[FlyRotary]Re:overflow (pressurized reservoirs) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 05:40:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00F4_01C404CF.E4623800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 05:40:40 -0500 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Mar 2004 10:40:06.0259 (UTC) FILETIME=[B8894C30:01C404F9] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F4_01C404CF.E4623800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David, I think you finally succeeded in getting Tracy to recognize there are = pressurized reservoir systems out there. I have a new BMW tank with an = indicator built in. Decided to stay with my smaller Volvo tank. If = anyone wishes to buy it, it is available for about 50% of retail, I.e. = $50. Bernie Kerr 772 466 6701 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 1:40 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ideal Cooling System Plumbing = (wasRe:[FlyRotary]Re:overflow OK David, I see what you mean. This could give an indication of = trouble in some circumstances. Although you would need to fully = characterize the system. Changing the pressurized reservoir size, = coolant level when filled, temperature when filled, etc, would all = affect the results. Tracy ----- Original Message ----- From: David Carter Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:31 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ideal Cooling System = Plumbing(wasRe:[FlyRotary]Re:overflow I have a feeling that we are talking about two different "coolant = level sensors". The one I'm talking about is in the "pressurized coolant/expansion/header tank" like a late 90's Ford Taurus. The = point that must be noted to discuss this "logically" is that the coolant level = in this tank ("FULL - HOT") is ABOVE the top of the high spot for coolant in = the engine. And, there is air space above the FULL- HOT level. There = is not other expansion tank. Coolant doesn't go "somewhere else". That = is as high as the level gets (unless there is blowby which is discussed = last below.) But, to discuss LEAKS, not BLOWBY/STEAM: This being the case, if the coolant level in this tank goes down and = the "low" sensor activates, there is still coolant in the engine block = (unless the coolant tank is very deep, where bottom is WAY below the top of = engine - not the case on the Ford). If this is so, then how could the = "coolant low" light NOT be a good indicator that you have a leak? - None of the coolant is being "expanded" into an unpressurized "expansion tank". That unpressurized tank is REPLACED by this = "pressurized coolant/expansion/header tank". Coolant does not "expand" "OUT" of = this tank. It is THE expansion tank. - I think we are mixing the two systems in this discussion. = This "pressurized coolant/exp/hdr tank" is part of the CLOSED system - it = is not "external" to the cooling system. It is PART OF THE SYSTEM - and if = its level goes down, then the entire closed system is losing coolant - = the SYSTEM has a leak. - When the sensor in this tank turns on the "low" or "check = coolant" light, then you have a leak - and you know it immediately upon = losing about 1/2 or 1 qt (whatever is in this tank between "Full - Hot" and the = "low sensor". Yes we should know the pressure indications of problems - but I = don't think we have anyone flying with a tank with a fluid level indication = system. Thus, there will be no "real stories" to validate this proposed = Ideal Cooling System. (ref someone else's post asking for "proof"). And, yes, if there is blowby as mentioned earlier = (compression/combustion gasses leaking by bad seals into the cooling passages and forcing = HIGH pressure into the coolant galleys) then, because this high pressure = is greater than the cap's release pressure, this blowby WILL force = liquid past the cap and out wherever you have it plumbed to go. - I would simply route the rubber line from that "cap pressure = release overflow fitting" to go up and spray up beside the windscreen where = I could see it - to warn me that I was either suffering compression blowby - = either from bad seals or from overheating and steaming. In either case, = I'd have instant warning that I need to terminate the flight ASAP. - It would be an desireable increase in parts count and would = MASK the problem to vent the "pressure cap blowby" into some other "expansion = tank" that you couldn't see or might not immediately notice. In summary, in the absence of "high pressure above cap release = pressure" in this CLOSED system, a fluid level indicator system should give you = an early, positive, and adequate warning that you have a leak, whether you = notice the pressure "clues" or not. David ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 10:33 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ideal Cooling System Plumbing (wasRe:[FlyRotary]Re:overflow > FIRST the pressure drops precipitously, and THEN the coolant = level > starts to go down ... FINALLY the temps start to rise (provided = the > temp sender is submerged in what water remains). Just a brief comment on this part. Coolant level sensors are of = almost no use in this application. It is commonly assumed that the temp gauge = reads low as soon as the sensor is no longer submerged. Not true. It = only drops after the coolant is all boiled away because steam will heat the = sensor. If you haven't caught the problem long before this, it's too late = anyway. Tracy >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_00F4_01C404CF.E4623800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
David,
 
I think you finally succeeded in getting Tracy to recognize there = are=20 pressurized reservoir systems out there. I have a new BMW tank with an = indicator=20 built in. Decided to stay with my smaller Volvo tank. If anyone wishes = to buy=20 it, it is available for about 50% of retail, I.e.  $50.
 
Bernie Kerr   772 466 6701
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Crook
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 = 1:40=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ideal = Cooling=20 System Plumbing (wasRe:[FlyRotary]Re:overflow

OK David, I see what you mean.  This could give an = indication of=20 trouble in some circumstances.  Although you would need to fully=20 characterize the system.  Changing the pressurized reservoir = size,=20 coolant level when filled, temperature when filled, etc, would all = affect the=20 results.
 
Tracy
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David Carter
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 = 4:31=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Ideal Cooling=20 System Plumbing(wasRe:[FlyRotary]Re:overflow
 
I have a feeling that we are talking about two = different=20 "coolant level
sensors".  The one I'm talking about is in = the=20 "pressurized
coolant/expansion/header tank" like a late 90's Ford = Taurus.  The point that
must be noted to discuss this = "logically" is=20 that the coolant level in this
tank ("FULL - HOT") is ABOVE the = top of=20 the high spot for coolant in the
engine.  And, there is air = space=20 above the FULL- HOT level.  There is not
other expansion=20 tank.   Coolant doesn't go "somewhere else".  That is = as
high as the level gets (unless there is blowby which is = discussed=20 last
below.)  But, to discuss LEAKS, not = BLOWBY/STEAM:

This=20 being the case, if the coolant level in this tank goes down = and =20 the
"low" sensor activates, there is still coolant in the engine = block=20 (unless
the coolant tank is very deep, where bottom is WAY below = the top=20 of engine -
not the case on the Ford).  If this is so, then = how=20 could the "coolant low"
light NOT be a good indicator that you = have a=20 leak?
    -  None of the coolant is being = "expanded"=20 into an unpressurized
"expansion tank".  That unpressurized = tank is=20 REPLACED by this "pressurized
coolant/expansion/header = tank". =20 Coolant does not "expand" "OUT" of this
tank.  It is THE = expansion=20 tank.
    - I think we are mixing the two systems = in this=20 discussion.   This
"pressurized coolant/exp/hdr tank" = is part=20 of the CLOSED system - it is not
"external" to the cooling = system. =20 It is PART OF THE SYSTEM - and if its
level goes down, then the = entire=20 closed system is losing coolant - the
SYSTEM has a=20 leak.
    -   When the sensor in this = tank turns=20 on the "low" or "check coolant"
light, then you have a leak - and = you=20 know it immediately upon losing  about
1/2 or 1 qt (whatever = is in=20 this tank between "Full - Hot" and the "low
sensor".

Yes = we should=20 know the pressure indications of problems - but I don't think
we = have=20 anyone flying with a tank with a fluid level indication = system.
Thus,=20 there will be no "real stories" to validate this proposed = Ideal
Cooling=20 System. (ref someone else's post asking for "proof").

And, = yes, if=20 there is blowby as mentioned earlier = (compression/combustion
gasses=20 leaking by bad seals into the cooling passages and forcing = HIGH
pressure=20 into the coolant galleys) then, because this high pressure = is
greater=20 than the cap's release pressure, this blowby WILL force liquid = past
the=20 cap and out wherever you have it plumbed to = go.
   =20 -  I would simply route the rubber line from that "cap pressure = release
overflow fitting" to go up and spray up beside the = windscreen=20 where I could
see it - to warn me that I was either suffering = compression=20 blowby - either
from bad seals or from overheating and = steaming.  In=20 either case, I'd have
instant warning that I need to terminate = the flight=20 ASAP.
    -  It would be an desireable = increase in=20 parts count and would MASK the
problem to vent the "pressure cap = blowby"=20 into some other "expansion tank"
that you couldn't see or might = not=20 immediately notice.

In summary, in the absence of "high = pressure=20 above cap release pressure" in
this CLOSED system, a fluid level=20 indicator system should give you an early,
positive, and adequate = warning=20 that you have a leak, whether you notice the
pressure "clues" or=20 not.

David

----- Original Message -----
From: = "Tracy=20 Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft"=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 = 10:33=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ideal Cooling System=20 = Plumbing
(wasRe:[FlyRotary]Re:overflow


>   = FIRST=20 the pressure drops precipitously, and THEN the coolant level
> = starts=20 to go down ... FINALLY the temps start to rise (provided the
> = temp=20 sender is submerged in what water remains).


Just a brief = comment=20 on this part.  Coolant level sensors are of almost no
use in = this=20 application.  It is commonly assumed that the temp gauge = reads
low=20 as soon as the sensor is no longer submerged.  Not true.  = It only=20 drops
after the coolant is all boiled away because steam will = heat the=20 sensor.  If
you haven't caught the problem long before this, = it's=20 too late anyway.

Tracy



>>  = Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>  Archive:  =20 = http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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