X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Steven W. Boese" Received: from [104.47.40.99] (HELO NAM03-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c1) with ESMTPS id 9603524 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 01:16:18 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=104.47.40.99; envelope-from=SBoese@uwyo.edu DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uwy.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-uwyo-edu; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=ncUF/QJ2Gg6vu5F3hYl6B4ELz8I29kgUJT5qZQYfQbE=; b=W9lldk5KoQuzRpkLvPqpfhvn3MWgyeNr8lu2S6R+BwJ+On2hdcMYZp/u0ptEMCacd7f97WiqW6y5uaITohpjH9HiRP541+8GVv3/Sd0b8fZpurUGmQ/9psp4x3Kbr+9SbxE+fbfEfncnkNL/J5we171DHegQfX3vVgb74wR/ypM= Received: from DM2PR0501MB908.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.242.173.18) by DM2PR0501MB905.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.242.173.156) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.991.4; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 05:15:59 +0000 Received: from DM2PR0501MB908.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.173.18]) by DM2PR0501MB908.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.173.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.017; Fri, 24 Mar 2017 05:16:00 +0000 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review Thread-Index: AQHSpFnefr4J5Q9HCUy4UPHu/B84TKGjcTo1 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 05:16:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: lancaironline.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;lancaironline.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=uwyo.edu; x-originating-ip: [69.146.90.23] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;DM2PR0501MB905;7:+erFyOHEPOy96ZXSAdULzfeNAyfE/WjlTtIq/9gVH0hYI0XBrfZDMrBDabvlCAmHzBnVGGNMdKE+bSY6SLEclljby3nOqrsevTd59vDreFLq81XBRqgOjW6Vw5oRnspHA8xnNz6Y7BOiR8OLMpyfo9wwaoIoS7vnVYNp4S85VplmXi9PHL8wRA9ahdN3FU2Dllns3OKx2cwNmleJJj6l7RsD+TcRU+OsM3o9WVIah/UWzpAtUtEpWMCHUf4tvbYAZ9LZOJUzV3QjyvRLQq+uOFDSaIfw3oHFuNe7P1iDV9xW3tW509Veqb4MZnXvG7X0UTXfx4nBVJxaxvUgkiIldA== x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 68354384-4f64-4745-f231-08d47274dc2a x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(2017030254075);SRVR:DM2PR0501MB905; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(6040375)(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(10201501046)(3002001)(6041248)(20161123560025)(20161123564025)(20161123562025)(20161123558025)(20161123555025)(6072148);SRVR:DM2PR0501MB905;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DM2PR0501MB905; x-forefront-prvs: 0256C18696 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(39450400003)(39410400002)(39830400002)(24454002)(377454003)(6916009)(80792005)(33656002)(2900100001)(2950100002)(54356999)(76176999)(7696004)(50986999)(99286003)(9686003)(55016002)(54896002)(236005)(2906002)(53936002)(19627405001)(75432002)(81166006)(8676002)(86362001)(6506006)(3280700002)(6436002)(8936002)(3660700001)(74316002)(77096006)(66066001)(122556002)(38730400002)(3846002)(6116002)(110136004)(102836003)(53546009)(25786009)(189998001)(5660300001)(229853002);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:DM2PR0501MB905;H:DM2PR0501MB908.namprd05.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;MLV:sfv;LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DM2PR0501MB908D4960644961DF3567C9DB93E0DM2PR0501MB908na_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: uwyo.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Mar 2017 05:16:00.0336 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f9cdd7ad-825d-4601-8e9c-a325e02d52da X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR0501MB905 --_000_DM2PR0501MB908D4960644961DF3567C9DB93E0DM2PR0501MB908na_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, The DB-30618 oil cooler I used is 21.0" long, 5.9" high, and 3.0" deep and = is single pass. It had -10 fittings on each end which I cut off and replac= ed with -8 fittings. It is probably overkill. Steve ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of = Kelly Troyer Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 10:47:54 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review Steve, I find two versions of the Fluidyne DB 30618 oil cooler........One call a = "Single Pass" Thermo HX Nascar version ($460.00) and a DB-30618 ($380.00) which may be a two pass (Does not Say)........Whic= h are you using ??........... Kelly Troyer On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Steven W. Boese > wrote: Dave, The oil thermostat and bypass is internal to the oil cooler. Removing the = thermostat would allow the oil to always bypass the core no matter what the= temperature of the oil is. The pressure at the inlet to the oil cooler wo= uld not be as high at lower RPM but still reach 150 psi at high RPM. Witho= ut oil being forced to flow through the core, however, the cooling effectiv= eness would be greatly reduced. I have not set up the oil cooler this way. It is also possible to remove the oil thermostat and block off the bypass w= ith a bolt and nut. This prevents the hot oil from flowing through the byp= ass and mixing with the oil cooled by the core. Only the cooled oil will e= xit the oil cooler then. The pressure at the oil cooler inlet would reach = 150 psi at lower RPM with this set up. I've tried this setup but didn't ma= ke pressure measurements on it. I've converted the RX7 oil cooler to single pass instead of double pass by = welding a -10 fitting on the tank at the opposite end of the normal connect= ions and removing the thermostat. The inlet pressure reached 150 psi at ab= out the same RPM (2800) as with the unmodified cooler with the thermostat i= nstalled. This demonstrated the restrictive nature of the RX7 core. Steve Boese RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft > on behalf of hoursaway1 > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 6:52 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review Steve, Dave Cook here, have you tried looking for that same pressure build-= up pre Mazda oil cooler with the temp by-pass removed/by-passed, I'm thinki= ng that is the cause of the restriction. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary ,MI ________________________________ From: "Steven W. Boese" > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:11:21 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review Andrew, A Fluidyne DB-30618 is the oil cooler I ended up with in the plane. When a pressure gauge was installed in the line between the front cover out= let and the RX7 oil cooler inlet, the pressure rose with increasing RPM to = 150 psi at 2800 RPM. Increasing RPM above 2800 resulted in a steady pressu= re at 150 psi. Since the oil pump is a positive displacement pump, additio= nal oil flow above 2800 RPM passes through the relief valve into the sump. = At 5600 RPM half of the oil pumped by the oil pump never flows through the= oil cooler. With the Fluidyne oil cooler, the pressure at its inlet never reaches 150 p= si so all of the oil passes through it. An archive search for 25 Feb 2014 should find a description of various oil = cooler configurations that I tested. Steve Boese ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft > on behalf of Andrew Martin > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:40:08 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review This thread has perfect timing and great info for me. I was thinking of ditching my setup and simplifying it, but it looks like e= very system is a compromise. I just mounted a belly radiator which entailed moving the pumps & sump tank= . As other local pilots had commented on how complex my fuel system was I t= hought it opportune to address it now. After following this thread though I= 'm inclined to stick with this setup now as I know it works. and just not l= et anyone else on the controls. Only problem I have is I cannot tell the fuel level in the sump tank. Need = some sort of warning that I've drained a tank dry or have a vent or feed pr= oblem. Am thinking of putting a sight glass in the return line from sump to= fuel selectors for a visual clue. I like this setup as it allows me to feed from any or all tanks. not needed= but usually leave 1 transfer pump on. if both transfer pumps happened to f= ail the fuel return path gives a free flow path from tanks to sump also. I have managed to empty the sump tank once when flow testing the system but= there was no back pressure on the system so regulator was not circulating = fuel. I guessed the tank vent lines (1/4") are just to small when fuel flow= ing at 180l/hr and it vapourized in the sump. Steve. I'm interested to know the model No. of your fluidyne oil cooler. I = started with these mods because I couldn't control my oil temps, so new bel= ly radiator installed to give oil cooler all the cowl air, but I never thou= ght that the mazda cooler may be blocking oil flow. Whats the clue that the= front relief valve is opening? Andrew -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --_000_DM2PR0501MB908D4960644961DF3567C9DB93E0DM2PR0501MB908na_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kelly,


The DB-30618 oil cooler I used is 21.0" long, 5.9" high, and 3= .0" deep and is single pass.  It had -10 fittings on each end whi= ch I cut off and replaced with -8 fittings.


It is probably overkill.


Steve

From: Rotary motors in airc= raft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Kelly Troyer <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 10:47:54 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review
 
Steve,
 I find two versions of the Fluidyne DB 30618 oil cooler........O= ne call a "Single Pass" Thermo HX Nascar version ($460.00)
and a DB-30618 ($380.00) which may be a two pass (Does not Say).......= .Which are you using ??...........

Kelly Troyer

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Steven W. Boes= e <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dave,


The oil thermostat and bypass is internal to the oil cooler.  Remov= ing the thermostat would allow the oil to always bypass the core no matter = what the temperature of the oil is.  The pressure at the inlet to the = oil cooler would not be as high at lower RPM but still reach 150 psi at high RPM.  Without oil being forced to flo= w through the core, however, the cooling effectiveness would be greatl= y reduced.  I have not set up the oil cooler this way.


It is also possible to remove the oil thermostat and block off the bypas= s with a bolt and nut.  This prevents the hot oil from flowi= ng through the bypass and mixing with the oil cooled by the = core.  Only the cooled oil will exit the oil cooler then.  The pressure at the oil cooler inlet would reach 150 psi at lower RPM with thi= s set up.  I've tried this setup but didn't make pressure measure= ments on it.


I've converted the RX7 oil cooler to single pass instead of double pass = by welding a -10 fitting on the tank at the opposite end of the normal conn= ections and removing the thermostat.  The inlet pressure reached 150 p= si at about the same RPM (2800) as with the unmodified cooler with the thermostat installed.  This demon= strated the restrictive nature of the RX7 core.

 

Steve Boese
RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2


From: = Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of hoursaway1 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 6:52 PM

To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review
 
Steve, Dave Cook here, have you tried looking for that same press= ure build-up pre Mazda oil cooler with the temp by-pass removed/by-passed, = I'm thinking that is the cause of the restriction. David R. Cook  RV6A= Rotary ,MI

From: "Steven W. Boese" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt;
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:11:21 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review


Andrew,


A Fluidyne DB-30618 is the oil cooler I ended up with in the plane= .


When a pressure gauge was installed in the line between the front cover = outlet and the RX7 oil cooler inlet, the pressure rose with increasing RPM = to 150 psi at 2800 RPM.  Increasing RPM above 2800 resulted in a stead= y pressure at 150 psi.  Since the oil pump is a positive displacement pump, additional oil flow above 2800= RPM passes through the relief valve into the sump.  At 5600 RP= M half of the oil pumped by the oil pump never flows through the oil cooler= .


With the Fluidyne oil cooler, the pressure at its inlet never reaches 15= 0 psi so all of the oil passes through it.


An archive search for 25 Feb 2014 should find a description of various o= il cooler configurations that I tested.


Steve Boese



From: Rotary motors in aircraft <= flyrotary@= lancaironline.net> on behalf of Andrew Martin <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:40:08 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel system peer review
 

This thread has perfect timing and great info for me.

I was thinking of ditching my setup and simplifying it, but it looks like e= very system is a compromise.
I just mounted a belly radiator which entailed moving the pumps & sump = tank. As other local pilots had commented on how complex my fuel system was= I thought it opportune to address it now. After following this thread thou= gh I'm inclined to stick with this setup now as I know it works. and just not let anyone else on the controls.
Only problem I have is I cannot tell the fuel level in the sump tank. Need = some sort of warning that I've drained a tank dry or have a vent or feed pr= oblem. Am thinking of putting a sight glass in the return line from sump to= fuel selectors for a visual clue.
I like this setup as it allows me to feed from any or all tanks. not needed= but usually leave 1 transfer pump on. if both transfer pumps happened to f= ail the fuel return path gives a free flow path from tanks to sump also.
I have managed to empty the sump tank once when flow testing the system but= there was no back pressure on the system so regulator was not circulating = fuel. I guessed the tank vent lines (1/4") are just to small when fuel= flowing at 180l/hr and it vapourized in the sump.

Steve. I'm interested to know the model No. of your fluidyne oil cooler. I = started with these mods because I couldn't control my oil temps, so new bel= ly radiator installed to give oil cooler all the cowl air, but I never thou= ght that the mazda cooler may be blocking oil flow. Whats the clue that the front relief valve is opening?<= br>
Andrew





--
Kelly Tro= yer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
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