From: "Charlie England" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 08:13:14 -0600
Message-ID: <CAHxyc5175hx4L1PR1Kp9Eys6c3UBuFG9er6t=2jC69ZWj3OSpA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13b & Renesis 13B weights
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 6:19 AM, Richard Van Camp <
flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

> Mark & Charlie,
>
> Thank you for the information.  I am a little surprised to see this as
> heavy as it is (in Charlie's application) yet, like the idea of the dual
> alternator...clever.  Nonetheless, this is right in the range for FWF the
> aircraft designer specified.  I began looking into the Subaru's after the
> first of the year and decided I liked the EZ30D (i.e., H-6) because, it
> features a chain drive and is compact.  However, I found this to weigh just
> under 400 pounds according to Subaru service documentation.  While I am
> certain some weight can be removed this is the equivalent of the TCM O-470
> and I see no need to go there.  Several have informed me the turbocharged
> 4-cylinder Subaru FWF can be in this range as well but, this is a belt
> drive engine.  This does not make sense to me but, I do not know
> everything.  Clearly, people have a successful history with these
> conversions as well.  It is difficult to wander from the rotary...
>
> Rick
>

Yeah, we'd all like a 200 lb 250 HP installation. You might come close to
that, if you're willing to use some of the newest snowmobile/watercraft
engines out there. The Yamaha RX1 & similar snowmobile engines (some over
10 years old now, so available on the used market) are around 140 HP with
120 lb core weight. There are installations flying at a claimed
installed-weight of around 200 lbs. Newer stuff is even more powerful, but
then the 15 lb Rotax C gearboxes (and similar products) start getting
pretty marginal & you're forced back to the 40+ lb aviation reductions.

The Renesis core is ~185 lbs, IIRC. A Lyc 320 core is around 285 lbs, and a
360 (fairer comparison) is around 295 lbs, best case, and weights vary
quite a bit, depending on numerous factors. Lyc's published sheets for
various models show amazing spreads in weight of the same cubic inch
engine. The 200 HP angle valve 360 with counterweighted crank is closer to
330 lbs, bare. No, that's not a misprint.

Remember, not everyone weighs their complete install, in
everything-required-to-run trim. Even that number doesn't include the 2
stroke oil tank, and now that I think about it, heater hose or caps for the
heater ports. Also remember that almost no one *ever* weighs  a Lyc
installation, in ready-to-run trim. Most Lyc drivers don't even know what
their core engine weighs; they don't need to, since the plane was designed
around the engine.

My 1st weighing of my install was at 310 lbs, for what I *thought* was just
about everything. Then I decided to try for 2 alternators (with mounts,
extra pulleys, etc) and there are always several bits & pieces you forget
until you get closer to actual running trim.

Lighter is do-able. Remove 1 alt= ~10-11 lbs, when you include the extra
pulleys, belt, etc. I tried to be as careful as possible with mount
adapters, and did pretty well. But I could probably save 2-3 lbs if I built
a 'gen2' mount system. The oil cooler is almost certainly oversized, since
Tracy is cooling a 3 rotor with the same cooler, so maybe 1 lb less. The
radiator could be replaced with a pair of automotive heater cores (like
many early builds), but I doubt you'd get more than a lb or 2 for likely
marginal cooling because building an efficient diffuser for them is pretty
hard. The *complete* exhaust, from modified Mazda manifold through the
tailpipe weighs just under 20 lbs. A stainless header would save a couple
of lbs (but not as much as you might hope), and a smaller muffler (the
Aeroturbine is *big*) might save another 3-4 lbs. Don't expect to save much
more than this on the exhaust, unless you're planning on a special issuance
Medical for hearing disability (and a 13B would be worse).

So I'd consider 310 - 315 lbs an achievable target for a Renesis.
Hopefully, others will share their 'all up' weights, as well. Hopefully,
Tracy will share his all-up weight on his Renesis install. I know he was
very focused on minimizing weight. Dennis Haverlah might have a good weight
for a header type exhaust; I think he's been testing one. (hint hint)

Charlie

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 6:19 AM, Richard Van Camp <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" target=3D"_blank">flyrotary=
@lancaironline.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">Mark &amp; Charlie,<br>
<br>
Thank you for the information.=C2=A0 I am a little surprised to see this as=
 heavy as it is (in Charlie&#39;s application) yet, like the idea of the du=
al alternator...clever.=C2=A0 Nonetheless, this is right in the range for F=
WF the aircraft designer specified.=C2=A0 I began looking into the Subaru&#=
39;s after the first of the year and decided I liked the EZ30D (i.e., H-6) =
because, it features a chain drive and is compact.=C2=A0 However, I found t=
his to weigh just under 400 pounds according to Subaru service documentatio=
n.=C2=A0 While I am certain some weight can be removed this is the equivale=
nt of the TCM O-470 and I see no need to go there.=C2=A0 Several have infor=
med me the turbocharged 4-cylinder Subaru FWF can be in this range as well =
but, this is a belt drive engine.=C2=A0 This does not make sense to me but,=
 I do not know everything.=C2=A0 Clearly, people have a successful history =
with these conversions as well.=C2=A0 It is difficult to wander from the ro=
tary...<br>
<br>
Rick<br></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Yeah, we&#39;d all like a 200 lb=
 250 HP installation. You might come close to that, if you&#39;re willing t=
o use some of the newest snowmobile/watercraft engines out there. The Yamah=
a RX1 &amp; similar snowmobile engines (some over 10 years old now, so avai=
lable on the used market) are around 140 HP with 120 lb core weight. There =
are installations flying at a claimed installed-weight of around 200 lbs. N=
ewer stuff is even more powerful, but then the 15 lb Rotax C gearboxes (and=
 similar products) start getting pretty marginal &amp; you&#39;re forced ba=
ck to the 40+ lb aviation reductions.</div><div><br></div><div>The Renesis =
core is ~185 lbs, IIRC. A Lyc 320 core is around 285 lbs, and a 360 (fairer=
 comparison) is around 295 lbs, best case, and weights vary quite a bit, de=
pending on numerous factors. Lyc&#39;s published sheets for various models =
show amazing spreads in weight of the same cubic inch engine. The 200 HP an=
gle valve 360 with counterweighted crank is closer to 330 lbs, bare. No, th=
at&#39;s not a misprint.</div><div><br></div><div>Remember, not everyone we=
ighs their complete install, in everything-required-to-run trim. Even that =
number doesn&#39;t include the 2 stroke oil tank, and now that I think abou=
t it, heater hose or caps for the heater ports. Also remember that almost n=
o one *ever* weighs =C2=A0a Lyc installation, in ready-to-run trim. Most Ly=
c drivers don&#39;t even know what their core engine weighs; they don&#39;t=
 need to, since the plane was designed around the engine.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>My 1st weighing of my install was at 310 lbs, for what I *thought* =
was just about everything. Then I decided to try for 2 alternators (with mo=
unts, extra pulleys, etc) and there are always several bits &amp; pieces yo=
u forget until you get closer to actual running trim.=C2=A0</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Lighter is do-able. Remove 1 alt=3D ~10-11 lbs, when you include =
the extra pulleys, belt, etc. I tried to be as careful as possible with mou=
nt adapters, and did pretty well. But I could probably save 2-3 lbs if I bu=
ilt a &#39;gen2&#39; mount system. The oil cooler is almost certainly overs=
ized, since Tracy is cooling a 3 rotor with the same cooler, so maybe 1 lb =
less. The radiator could be replaced with a pair of automotive heater cores=
 (like many early builds), but I doubt you&#39;d get more than a lb or 2 fo=
r likely marginal cooling because building an efficient diffuser for them i=
s pretty hard. The *complete* exhaust, from modified Mazda manifold through=
 the tailpipe weighs just under 20 lbs. A stainless header would save a cou=
ple of lbs (but not as much as you might hope), and a smaller muffler (the =
Aeroturbine is *big*) might save another 3-4 lbs. Don&#39;t expect to save =
much more than this on the exhaust, unless you&#39;re planning on a special=
 issuance Medical for hearing disability=C2=A0(and a 13B would be worse).</=
div><div><br></div><div>So I&#39;d consider 310 - 315 lbs an achievable tar=
get for a Renesis. Hopefully, others will share their &#39;all up&#39; weig=
hts, as well. Hopefully, Tracy will share his all-up weight on his Renesis =
install. I know he was very focused on minimizing weight. Dennis Haverlah m=
ight have a good weight for a header type exhaust; I think he&#39;s been te=
sting one. (hint hint)</div><div><br></div><div>Charlie</div></div></div></=
div>

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