X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: Received: from mail-yb0-f181.google.com ([209.85.213.181] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9405990 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 26 Jan 2017 16:54:23 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.181; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by mail-yb0-f181.google.com with SMTP id j82so58625136ybg.1 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2017 13:54:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:mime-version:to:from:subject:date:importance:in-reply-to :references; bh=B6cpLOYKGBJCtYpeSfSph5gCTO5hLhSz709sDQWHJwQ=; b=f77kRXhM16QAE7YEOaRbUhJ3s+S5IcSkMyrZSLpltus4VmLuPqT4ty+NQm5ms+3oZT loh/YEQSiEXi8CfYMv3ohUxFI/xW6WHU7gxYU5BG5zmjkQw7DqnpkGVK5375hX0WcIbj HXrzGaeGrpYjq2uOcP/VErZ1RGsyfG8F6/53OqQZ3/lfpc24B5aJBab6krimglgNPxhs T5ehhIFm9V/MwLi7MaBekd9A/ieZGs6F6OfowNYSKVV25W80AzXeQqaBrlCODq8SL+i9 nYLC4FJ8QXugS+Uc530gZGxzX4pb8aQokB8u+I8Imwd3vFx76xPKtDRXFHbHbBuwZE5h 253A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:mime-version:to:from:subject:date :importance:in-reply-to:references; bh=B6cpLOYKGBJCtYpeSfSph5gCTO5hLhSz709sDQWHJwQ=; b=Jme5CbNqAhDBo4zscksq83j5fuSye+s/uUYanQNCHdoGkMeC56mvk+NBqoSB8Ldxqf xehSm469TNaoWrxWPgXgORV4+KcKUiGpR2pArFv4opMgjVS4CEeKqgxGDy7kPc1hWKfG Zbsjea1MZCp+VW2p/7boc4bb51Q2dZN+sOn0k7CJoVp6Xax17jazXeQlldiMm9K4d3fr tYTVEoodkQLkr4Fjp7yrz2zTHAcKNc41e+rbHFQfQoT6SO3tX/8sysDKyY29pTXORyCG Y3QXVlD708zLIdFA/x0CbbRZ8aee1tCWMa2xzcC2GM2uKRc5TCFmWVv2UlOZWDWB4/QP EeMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJY2sHbsgv5csrDvmkGN/FU0FmAbk6NKA2J0veVbRJ9C3OIojYr/f0roXKN0QFB8g== X-Received: by 10.129.105.138 with SMTP id e132mr3996865ywc.176.1485467644400; Thu, 26 Jan 2017 13:54:04 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from ?IPv6:::ffff:192.168.254.2? (h19.176.90.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net. [75.90.176.19]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s84sm1478670yws.0.2017.01.26.13.54.02 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Jan 2017 13:54:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <588a6ffb.572c810a.e8148.6898@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nigel Baker Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 16:54:01 -0500 Importance: normal X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_D47B114C-C112-4497-B2FC-0C71B1E3AF3D_" --_D47B114C-C112-4497-B2FC-0C71B1E3AF3D_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Interesting! I=E2=80=99ll have to read more about that TLTD coating. Thanks! Tracy Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Nigel Baker Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:12 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets Exactly. Getting heat away on the outside is the idea. The CBC2 is used in the combustion chamber as a thermal barrier coating to = reduce heat going into the heads. The TLTD is used on the fins/outside of the heads as a thermal dispersant. = I don=E2=80=99t know how it works but it does. It improves the transition o= f the heat in the heads to the cooling air. It must improve heat conductivi= ty. There is descriptions of the application of both products on the website. Cheers. Nige. From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 1:34 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets Hi Nigel, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just curious.=C2=A0 What was the idea in coating the out= side of the heads?=C2=A0 The coatings are typically to block heat flow and = I=E2=80=99d think we=E2=80=99d like the heat to flow out of the heads on an= AeroVee. Tracy=20 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Nigel Baker Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 5:31 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets Yep. I recently did coatings to an Aerovee type engine. Both Combustion cha= mbes and outside of the heads. I used CBC2 and TLTD from http://www.techlinecoatings.com/hi-performance/sh= op-only.html\ I am in OZ but fortunately it was available locally. The process was straight forward and I did the curing in the BBQ oven outsi= de. I also went ouch when I got a quote to have it done and it was far cheaper = to by the stuff and do it myself ( I have a small grit blaster so did that = myself as well but that was included in the quote). I have enough of the st= uff left over to do about another 10 sets of heads. Cheers. Nige. From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 7:56 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets Ouch. Anyone have any experience with any of the DIY coatings? For that mon= ey, you consider building your own curing oven.... Charlie On 1/23/2017 3:01 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: Got a quote from Jet-Hot. =C2=A0A fairly simple Y shaped muffler system for= Corvair would be around $300. On Monday, January 23, 2017 3:11 PM, ARGOLDMAN wrote: I am interested in ceramic coatings also. A question arises in the areas of= slip joints or ball joints. =C2=A0 Also with pushers (perish the thought) what will the effect of a hotter exh= aust blowing on the propeller in a more concentrated fashion vs a cooler bl= ast modified by the radiation of the exhaust system being cooled by moving = air leaving the cowling? Rich =C2=A0 In a message dated 1/20/2017 1:14:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, flyrotary@= lancaironline.net writes: Lynn, Et All,=20 I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I have u= sed Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot didn't= have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary exhaust tempe= ratures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for some time now. They nee= ded to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header temperatures. The= y have a service where they apply to the inside and outside of the pipes. T= here is a very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. The insinuative ef= fect is as good or better than most heat wraps, and the pipes look great to= o. I have used them for pipes on racing motorcycles that have tight fairing= s. I measured a 30=C2=B0 difference inside my fairing with no other changes= using color change tape, but I think is was even better than that in terms= of radiated heat. I had a battery located in the fairing mounted low in fr= ont of the headers. This no longer was showing bubbling and melting effects= , and survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss system. I don't work= for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them either. I highly recommend th= em. Bill Jepson=C2=A0 On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover w= rote: The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps around = the engine. =C2=A0 The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall=C2=A0turn to dust= in one racing season. Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outside radius = of bent tubes is thinner and will =C2=A0fail sooner.That bright orange head= er you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped header loo= ks like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ste= el under stress fails sooner.=C2=A0 Each down pipe should be free to twist = and squirm a bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and only = thick wall stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the exiting exhau= st gasses will be close the=C2=A0EGT readings on the gage. Will your car mu= ffler hold up to 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off along those pipe= s will the bright orange pipe damage anything important?=20 =C2=A0 Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the same lengt= h) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector attaches with= stiff springs the=C2=A0down pipes. A strap=C2=A0fail safe in case a spring= fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in case the s= pring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know and a piece = of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the least helpful. Th= e collector is supported=C2=A0 loosely=C2=A0by a bracket that moves with th= e engine.=20 =C2=A0 Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine movi= ng about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and so-on ma= y be mounted to the chassis.=20 Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.=20 =C2=A0 The whole system may =C2=A0may be covered with .015" stainless shielding sp= aced one inch at least off of the tubes.=C2=A0 Air blowing between the shie= lding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing temperature= s under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating higher temps.=20 =C2=A0 Been there. Done that. =C2=A0 Lynn E. Hanover =C2=A0 In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@= lancaironline.net writes: My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between diff= icult and impossible.=C2=A0 I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025 stai= nless shroud that went all the way to the air exit, =C2=A0and ducting airfl= ow through it.=C2=A0 Sort of a muffler over the muffler.=C2=A0 It'd be heav= y, but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket material= for more heat isolation. On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim wrote: So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that some= people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures don't lik= e them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of radiant heat unde= r the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to try to keep mo= st of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic coating on the i= nside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe is no longer new it= becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. On my first ever = engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was supposed to reduce = oil heating, but after I had a little detonation incident I found during th= e rebuild that much of the ceramic had come off due to the shock of detonat= ion. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic coating the outside of the pipe = is any better than wrapping them as the heat is still absorbed by the metal= but unable to radiate out. =C2=A0 =C2=A0But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is that once = it's done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without having it redo= ne again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already had my exhaus= t completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change again... Bu= t then somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX wideband sens= or was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of hundred bucks an= d having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended that the sensor be loc= ated at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstream from a turbo, while= my old narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream. So rather than leaving = the old sensor in place I decided to cut it off along with another (long ag= o) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch over it, then install a new= O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld and re-wrap. So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly. =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud in pla= ce but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhaust ma= nifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but I mad= e one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for the lar= gest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directly below t= hat, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I made this = cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed together like a qui= lt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cover with a blank= et like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a sleeve that slide= s over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler which is located insid= e a housing (more on that in a another post), due to it's location inside a= housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over that one too. Pics of all this and more at this link. https://goo.gl/photos/ NvD5YH4jwbktESi88 Todd Bartrim C-FSTB RV9 13Bturbo --_D47B114C-C112-4497-B2FC-0C71B1E3AF3D_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

Interesting!=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ll have= to read more about that TLTD coating.

Thanks!

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

Tracy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows= 10

 

From: = Nigel Baker
Se= nt: Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:12 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: <= /b>[FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets

 

Exactly. Getting heat away on the outside is the idea.

The CBC2 is used in the combustion chamber as a thermal barrier coating to= reduce heat going into the heads.

The TLTD is used on the fins/o= utside of the heads as a thermal dispersant. I don=E2=80=99t know how it wo= rks but it does. It improves the transition of the heat in the heads to the= cooling air. It must improve heat conductivity.

There is descrip= tions of the application of both products on the website.=

Cheers.=

Nige.

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mai= lto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 20= 17 1:34 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets

 = ;

Hi Nigel,

    Just curious.  What was the idea in coatin= g the outside of the heads?  The coatings are typically to block heat = flow and I=E2=80=99d think we=E2=80=99d like the heat to flow out of the he= ads on an AeroVee.

 

=

Tracy

 <= /o:p>

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: <= a href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net">Nigel Baker
Sent: <= /b>Tuesday, January 24, 2017 5:31 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [Fl= yRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets

 

Yep. I r= ecently did coatings to an Aerovee type engine. Both Combustion chambes and= outside of the heads.

I used CBC2 and TLTD from http://www= .techlinecoatings.com/hi-performance/shop-only.html\<= /span>

I am in OZ but fortunatel= y it was available locally.

The process was straight forward and I did the curing in the = BBQ oven outside.

I also went ouch when I got a quote to have it done and it was far chea= per to by the stuff and do it myself ( I have a small grit blaster so did t= hat myself as well but that was included in the quote). I have enough of th= e stuff left over to do about another 10 sets of heads.

Cheers.

Nige.

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline= .net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 7:56 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: ex= haust wraps and blankets

<= o:p> 

Ouch. Anyone have an= y experience with any of the DIY coatings? For that money, you consider bui= lding your own curing oven....

Charlie

On 1/23/2017 3:01 PM, = Ernest Christley wrote:

Got a quote = from Jet-Hot.  A fairly simple Y shaped muffler system for Corvair wou= ld be around $300.

 

<= /div>

On Monday, January 23, 2017 3:11 PM, ARGOLDMAN <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrot= e:

 

= I am interested in ceramic coatings also. A question arises i= n the areas of slip joints or ball joints.

=

 

<= span lang=3DEN-AU style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;= color:black'>Also with pushers (perish the thought) what will the effect of= a hotter exhaust blowing on the propeller in a more concentrated fashion v= s a cooler blast modified by the radiation of the exhaust system being cool= ed by moving air leaving the cowling?

Rich

 

In a message dated 1/20/2017 1:14:08 P= .M. Central Standard Time, f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Ly= nn, Et All,

I want to mention the alternat= ive to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I have used Jet-Hot on headers for ins= ulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot didn't have a super high temp coatin= g that would stand up to rotary exhaust temperatures. They have had an 1800= =C2=B0F+ material for some time now. They needed to have a coating that wou= ld stand up to turbo header temperatures. They have a service where they ap= ply to the inside and outside of the pipes. There is a very minor smoothing= effect that even help HP. The insinuative effect is as good or better than= most heat wraps, and the pipes look great too. I have used them for pipes = on racing motorcycles that have tight fairings. I measured a 30=C2=B0 diffe= rence inside my fairing with no other changes using color change tape, but = I think is was even better than that in terms of radiated heat. I had a bat= tery located in the fairing mounted low in front of the headers. This no lo= nger was showing bubbling and melting effects, and survived a 4 hour endura= nce race as a total loss system. I don't work for those guys, and wasn't sp= onsored by them either. I highly recommend them.

Bill Jepson 

<= o:p> 

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Leh= anover <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= span lang=3DEN-AU style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>= My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between diff= icult and impossible.  I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025 stai= nless shroud that went all the way to the air exit,  and ducting airfl= ow through it.  Sort of a muffler over the muffler.  It'd be heav= y, but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket material= for more heat isolation.

 

 

 

On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

 

So I'm interested to hear about thought= s on exhaust wraps? I know that some people like them and others don't. Als= o some header manufactures don't like them. But the fact is that we have on= e heck of a lot of radiant heat under the cowl. Heat shields help some but = I really just want to try to keep most of the heat going down the exhaust p= ipe. I know ceramic coating on the inside of the pipe is the best solution,= but once a pipe is no longer new it becomes more difficult to apply and ho= pe for it to stay. On my first ever engine build I had my rotors ceramic co= ated as that was supposed to reduce oil heating, but after I had a little d= etonation incident I found during the rebuild that much of the ceramic had = come off due to the shock of detonation. In my mind, I don't feel that cera= mic coating the outside of the pipe is any better than wrapping them as the= heat is still absorbed by the metal but unable to radiate out.<= /span>

   But the biggest argument against ceramic coating= is that once it's done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without = having it redone again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already= had my exhaust completed some months ago, not expecting that it would chan= ge again... But then somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX= wideband sensor was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of hu= ndred bucks and having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended that the= sensor be located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstream = from a turbo, while my old narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream.= So rather than leaving the old sensor in place I decided to cut it off alo= ng with another (long ago) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch ove= r it, then install a new O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld = and re-wrap.

So as far as wraps go... lets hear it= . Good, bad or ugly.

  

 Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shro= ud in place but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The e= xhaust manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild = but I made one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account fo= r the largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directl= y below that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I m= ade this cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed together l= ike a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cover wit= h a blanket like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a sleeve t= hat slides over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler which is loca= ted inside a housing (more on that in a another post), due to it's location= inside a housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over that one t= oo.

 

Pics of all th= is and more at this link.

 


Todd Bartrim

 

C-FSTB

RV9 13Bturbo

 

 

 

<= /div>

 

=

 

 

= --_D47B114C-C112-4497-B2FC-0C71B1E3AF3D_--